Hurt and confused. Was his proposal ever real?

[Larmoyant]

It’s been almost a month since I ended my relationship. It’s been very painful, but I couldn’t take the push/pull anymore. I couldn’t go NC because I found it too painful and too abrupt. I needed time and maybe he did too.

He seems to have gone now as I haven’t heard from him for a couple of days, but prior to that, he’d bombarded me with messages some pleading, most viciously insulting, but I’m used to that now. He also said he was confused and didn’t understand. I tried to explain, but I found myself repeating the same things over and over and he wouldn’t acknowledge my position. But despite all his rewriting of history, gaslighting, etc, I held on to my truth and this time didn't allow him to minimize my concerns and tell me I was wrong to be upset.

He’d recently asked me to marry him and despite all the chaos and the rages I love this man so said yes, but then he promptly told me not to tell anyone, didn’t discuss our future, and then moved his adult daughter into his home although she doesn’t want me around. I think he always used his daughters (16,18,23) to keep me at arms-length telling me over and over that they didn’t want me around. He also started to lock his front door meaning I now had to knock when I went over there, started saying he was going to get fit so women would look at him like they used to, stuff like that. I was so hurt, just more push/pull, confusion and instability. Actions not matching words.

In the last set of texts he said that he had loved me and had intended to marry me. Then said that his children have been and are the most important thing in his life and that although he gets very little back from it is nearly everything to him. I'm a little confused by this because maybe he thought he had to choose between his daughters and me which is sad as I would have loved to have got to know them. I wasn't given a chance and the few times I did see them they were fairly hostile. I didn't go into it, however, just thanked him for his honesty, wished him and his family well and went off and cried for a while, but then he sent me more confusing messages.

A couple of hours later he said he was at a concert and that he wanted me there with him, “I’d rather be here with you than anyone”. He went on to say that he’d tried very hard, but I’ve got a reserved, untrusting element to me and won’t let anyone in. He went on to tell me that what I’m feeling isn’t true. That he’s been trying to be my knight, but I never believe him and that he wished he could change me.

The last thing he said was “either do something or I’m moving on” along with a link to a sad song. He’s always sent me sad songs, right from the beginning. Songs about break-ups.  It’s as if he predicted the end of our relationship before it had really begun.

I wanted to reach out to him so badly, but I haven’t.

This is so painful. I miss him. I can't go back for more, but I just don’t understand any of it.

If anyone reads this confusing post (sorry). Do you think the proposal was ever real?

[Caley]

Dear L,

I don't feel your post is confusing at all. I can say that these patterns of behaviour (both yours and his are confusion conducive).

The push/pull cycle is an ever shifting, unstable foundation from which confusion, insecurities, anxiety and a whole host of other negatively charged emotions arise. The irony is that it takes two to create and sustain a push/pull dynamic ... I can relate to you not being comfortable with full NC ... it is, in and of itself, an awful concept ... sometimes it is necessary to consider if one feels at one's wits end or if there is severe emotional/physical or spiritual abuse. It is a tough call and only you know what is best for you and which way to go.

You sound disappointed that 'he seems to have gone now'. It would appear to me that whilst you are now alone you miss him and want him to reconnect. You have been used to 'bombardment' and now things have changed from what you have been conditioned to expect. He will ... I promise you ... he will return. Have no doubt about this. Try not to dwell on the question of will he return ... he will at some point ... a point unknown both to you and to him at this point. Try to give some attention to how you will react when he does. Is this relationship a relationship that you really want? Think in terms of ... if I have to consider that this relationship will not change ... can I live happily and healthily within it?

No-one has a right to dictate to you how you should or should not feel ... at the same time it is OK to accept that people will try to dictate ... it seems, for some, a natural thing to do. It is, however, extremely painful to have someone try to make you second guess your own feelings and why you feel the way you do. It can often leave a person feeling like there is something wrong with them ... but the truth is that there isn't anything wrong with you and you don't need to address or change that aspect of yourself. You can self-validate.

He sounds like he is putting his daughters between you both as an obstacle to intimacy. And, I would feel hurt too if I thought someone's children didn't like me without really knowing me or if I was being denied the opportunity to get to know them.

It sounds like he wants you to make some changes about you ... at the same time he seems to be unaware that he too would need to consider making some changes to the way he behaves. This must be very difficult for you because I imagine you are the type of person who would make changes for the better. Equally though ... you know that if you make changes to you and he doesn't reciprocate with changes to himself ... you will, at some point, harbour feelings of resentment. Which isn't healthy is it?

Take no notice of his threats to 'moving on' if you don't do something. This is intimidation and abusive and it may escalate as he realises that he isn't getting his own way ... stand your ground here because he has no sense of reference or grounding. You have to be the parent because he hasn't learned to be one, yet.

It is painful ... VERY ... and it is OK to miss him. However, ask yourself if you really do miss 'him' or whether it is that you miss the way you feel sometimes with him when things are good between you? Remember ... love, connection and feelings of fulfilment come from within you and no other ... sometimes, though, we need to determine whether someone truly deserves the love we are offering.

If you reach out to him ... in your experience ... what will be the result? And, is that the result you want?

He will come back ... take this quiet time to explore what you really want and believe that you deserve to feel safe, loved, wanted and cherished. Can he give you what you want? Is he capable of it?

Bless you ... take care. 

[Larmoyant]

Caley, thank you so much for your reply it was truly helpful.

I really just cannot bear the push/pull dynamic anymore. I find it worse than his rages and they can be horrific leading him to humiliate me in public and leave me stranded in unknown places. He’s pathologically jealous of other men which seems to be a major trigger. It’s all in his mind. I only ever wanted him. It got to the point where I didn’t dare look around when we went out, as if that made any difference, but it’s still not as bad as the come here/go away stuff.

I agree that push/pull dynamic takes two and if I reflect back it was me that was pulling away lately. He’s actually right when he says I have a reserved, untrusting quality, who wouldn’t if you’re walking on egg shells wondering when he’s going to change. I had to start setting some boundaries because of his mood switches. Sometimes I’d go to his house and he’d be in a terrible mood and would emotionally attack me saying terrible things or we’d be out somewhere and he’d change from happy to raging and I’d be trapped in an unknown place and he’d threaten to, and sometimes did, leave me there. I started to leave when he raged at me and he got a little better, but I found myself driving home crying/traumatised far too many times.

Sometimes it seems as if he enjoys hurting me, almost sadistic really. We could be snuggling in bed seemingly happy talking about our future and then he would suddenly tell me that he’s going to miss me when I’m gone or that he was planning a long trip away or something similar. It always left me feeling so insecure and confused, not knowing if I was up or down. I probably haven’t explained it very well, but this felt very push/pull to me. 

I am upset that he’s gone silent now, but at the same time feel a sense of relief because all of this is taking its toll. I’m very depressed and seeing a therapist now.

Your post is so helpful, thank you again because those questions are what I need to be contemplating. I suspect there’s not much I could do to change the dynamic save doing exactly what he wants and I’m not going to do that. Not anymore. I’m already feeling resentful. He doesn’t ever take responsibility. He’s always telling me what I think and how I feel. That I’m too emotional, too sensitive. I’ve been going over recent events questioning myself, but holding on for dear life to my own reality and not his. How the engagement or non-engagement as I now call it affected me is important and how his actions have made me feel is important. My wants and needs don't seem to matter to him. How can I ever be happy with this.

This is all so painful and the thought of feeling safe, loved, wanted and cherished brings me to tears. I get fleeting moments when I fool myself that I have those things, but truthfully I feel unsafe, unloved, unwanted and never cherished.

[heartandwhole]

Hi Larmoyant,

I feel for you, and I can very well relate to your feelings. That push/pull behavior is so painful. I think your feelings are very, very understandable. Be gentle with yourself and know that feeling this is the way out. Stuffing feelings down or rationalizing them too much leads to more pain, in my experience. You are feeling the pain, and that takes courage and strength.

I think Caley has given you excellent advice. Think about what you really want (and deserve!) in a relationship. Any relationship that makes you feel insecure, unbalanced, and/or fearful is not something you want to be in. Like you said, you want to feel wanted and cherished and loved. It is absolutely your birthright to have relationships that help you feel that way.

Your partner's proposal might have been very real—in the moment. People with BPD and/or traits put a lot of stock in their immediate feelings. The fact that in the next moment they might feel different is often not taken into account. I learned in my own past relationship with pwBPD that his feelings were very real to him, they were his truth. And when they changed to the opposite, he felt that they were the truth of his reality. I had to learn to honor MY feelings as much as he did. My feelings told me that the relationship wasn't healthy and staying in it was hurting me a lot.

Can you treat yourself as your most intimate and cherished friend, Larmoyant? Respect your very normal feelings of missing him AND the gut reaction that you can't go back for more. Those emotions have important messages for you. Someone—you—really needs some TLC right now. Give that to yourself as best you can. Treat yourself to something good and satisfying. We're here to listen and support and give virtual hugs   

Things really do get better. My life has changed for the better and I feel happy. You can, too. Allow yourself time to feel. It isn't easy, but it's worth it.

heartandwhole

[Jazzy]

Larmoyant

I understand how you feel having been in the same boat myself. My ex bf  and I exchanged rings within the first year of our relationship. They had our names inscribed ,with a promise to be together always.I loved him deeply( I still do) and trusted him more than I have ever trusted anybody else.  He  said he wanted to keep our r/s  a secret as his estranged wife  would create problems and not divorce him.  We were to get married the moment his divorce came through. I waited and waited. Six  years later I have been replaced .His new gf is 10 years older than him.He says the fact that she is much older makes him feel secure  that she will not leave him. He  also says he  has  initiated divorce proceedings  with his wife. Don't know whether that is true or just something fabricated to  please  the new girlfriend.He is like a little boy with her, wanting to please her in every which way. All his talk about marriage and the plans we made for our future seem so fake and phoney now.  We had a lovely r/s  but after he replaced me he turned into a mean , evil person. I saw aside of him I had never seen before.Looking back I realize there were red flags but I was so much in love with him, I chose to ignore them.

I know it hurts like nothing else ever has. I can only say this forum has been a big help for me. I come here everytime I feel I cannot cope with my pain. Keep posting .

Hugs

[Caley]

L,

These emotionally manipulative behaviours on his part sound very abusive indeed. I would be very careful about diagnosis if he hasn't been diagnosed by a professional. He may have some BPD traits but I would wager it is comorbid with a more severe disorder.

These manipulations are designed to make you feel insecure, anxious and scared ... eventually, if you are not careful, your Self esteem will become next to non-existent. So, if you're feeling these things then these manipulations are not only working but steadily and insidiously taking their effect. And, your health seriously affected.

I would seriously shelve all thoughts about marriage ... this is not a healthy place to be L ... it is not good for you. Please seek help through a qualified professional who understands the mechanics and biological affects from sustained emotional abuse.

If this were me I'd not just be closing the door ... I'd be slamming it shut, deadbolting it and welding up the gaps. He is showing glimpses of what is to come if you keep accepting this treatment.

L ... this is who he is. This isnt a blip in an otherwise reasonable man ... this is his pathology.

Get a grip lady ... pull yourself up by your shoe laces and show him the back of your heels. You do not deserve this treatment. It is shameful and unbridled abuse. If you want love, companionship and a mutually fulfilling relationship ... find a man ... there are plenty of good men out there looking for a good woman like you. Accept nothing less than fair, honest and caring treatment.

[Larmoyant]

Caley, you were right as he has contacted me again, but just more immature, damaging stuff. First it was a song about him moving on, then a newspaper article mentioning his name as an expert in his field because he feels insulted in some way that I’d admired a colleague’s intelligence (over a year ago) and then yesterday morning texts telling me in various ways what a liar I am.

Seems to be his favourite theme at the moment, what a “warped”, “manipulative” liar I am. It’s soul destroying and all I can feel is a tight knot of anxiety and stress in my stomach.

I am not a liar just a woman who wanted to love and care for someone and have them love me back.

I didn’t bother trying to defend myself or else I’d be drawn into those awful circular arguments. I wrote back saying that I will no longer be subject to nasty insinuations on my character and that from this moment on I will not be responding to any attempt to devalue me and that if he wants to talk he will need to be civil. His response “I was simply pointing out that you were again lying”.  :'(

Just more chipping away at my self-worth. It seems that was enough for him as he wrote nothing else. Just the insult and off he went getting on with his life whilst I’m here trying to pick up the pieces of mine.

This man is tearing me apart bit by bit. I feel horrible and I’m in a lot of pain. I keep reminding myself that it’s been a month now and I’m away from him, but I’m really still allowing him to devalue me. I always thought I could handle it. I tried to understand, read all about personality disorders and tried to adapt.

I’m trying to get the courage to go NC, but something’s preventing me. It’s too painful I suppose.

I am seeing a therapist who is helping me untangle all these emotions. It’s not easy and I sometimes wonder if there’s anything of me left. I sound like a victim full of self-pity, but the truth is I am a victim. He’s taken so much from me, but I’m still in here somewhere and I’m trying to work this out. I’m sorry I’m having a bad day.

Heartandwhole, I’m holding onto your words that things will get better. Thank you.

Jazzy, what you described must have been heartbreaking. The cruelty that some people inflict is hard to understand and my heart goes out to you. As for those red flags looking back they were waving like crazy, bur I ignored them too. Sometimes I think I’m still ignoring them.

Caley, I'm hanging onto those words too, accept nothing less than fair, honest and caring treatment. I'm determined 'this' time.

[Caley]

Hello L,

It's good to have somewhere to go to talk when you're having/had a bad day ... we all have them. And, we all deal with them in very different and colourful ways. Good day, bad day ... there's always a welcome here and ears to listen and share.

I'm afraid to say, but only through what I have experienced, they always come back.

Unfortunately, please try not to internalise what I'm about to say and find fault with you, they come back but not for the reasons that you think. We tend to think positively about their desire to reconnect because we tend to the idea that they've made a decision to return to try to make things better and to work to improve the relationship.

However, many people high on Cluster B traits see the world very differently to you and I. You sound like you're starting to realise that he isn't returning to 'make things better' between you ... he's returning to stoke up negatively charged emotions again ... which, if he's successful, keep you from tapping into, and listening to, the logical part of you that is quietly saying, 'L, this isn't good for you and you're not taking care of yourself'.

I'm glad you were able to stand up for yourself and explain that you will disengage from a conversation in which you feel you're being needlessly criticised and devalued. Again, you can see by his response (which is further denigration) that he hasn't even bothered to acknowledge your feelings or position (very little, to no existence at all, of empathy).

When he is able to get you to feel rotten about you ... he feels better about himself (he's right, you're wrong ... therefore there is nothing wrong him because this is all your fault for being a liar and an untrustworthy person).

And, around and around we go ... and, where it stops, nobody knows ... goes the nursery rhyme.

Personally, I'm not an advocate of 'it's the disorder, not them camp'. I see this approach as excusing and making allowances for poor, unsociable behaviour ... especially, physical, mental, emotional and spiritual abuse. Yes, perhaps there is some room for the pathology but abuse is abuse ... and it hurts like no other hurt.

You do deserve to be treated fairly, lovingly and with compassion and care. But right now L ... the only person around to do that is you. And, I really do hope you can begin to put your value above his pathology and hold onto the idea that you are equally as important as him. And, if he isn't prepared or equipped to meet and provide for your basic human needs ... then you are going to take the lead and start providing them for yourself.

I hope you have a much better day today L. I'm pretty sure something of beauty will present itself to show you that the world can be a wonderful place ... if you look closely.

Take care.  

[Beacher]

He sounds like a brute. And possibly dangerous. I can so relate with that sick feeling in your stomach. Honestly I feel like my soon to be ex added about 10 horrible years to my life- physically and mentally I feel like a 70 year old. I knew I would die if I stayed.

Please get away from him ASAP and block him. You deserve a good life with someone that treats you with dignity and love.

[Larmoyant]

Hi Caley, I think I stayed for so long because of his ‘disorder’. I kept excusing his behaviour as if he somehow couldn’t help it, and felt sorrow for him. Now I think much of his abuse was on purpose. I was reading over some of our old text conversations today (it helps me stay strong) where I was trying to explain to him that I was feeling uncared for and disregarded. He kept dismissing this, but kept talking about my lack of kisses at the end of my messages. This went on for quite a while until I gave up and ended a text with a kiss. Immediately after receiving the kiss he went completely silent and I couldn’t contact him for several hours. When he finally got in contact he was cold as ice, and no kiss because he’d decided to give me a taste of my own medicine! The effect of this is hard to explain. It doesn’t sound much I know and people might think I’m being hypersensitive but on top of everything else it created more anxiety.

He’s back to being nice now. Just received another text saying he didn’t mean to be detrimental yesterday. That he knows I have a lot of good qualities and wishing me all the best in the future and hopes I’m happy. This makes me feel sad because it seems so final, and maybe it is, but I’ve had similar messages. It also makes me angry because I’m tempted to write back and tell him how can I be happy. I’ve been left in such a state that I’m fearful of the future. I won't. I'll just sit with the emotions, wait them out. I truly am feeling exhausted.

Hello Beacher, my therapist says he has sociopathic traits as well as BPD traits. He’s 50 now, and has a good career where he’s respected, but when he was a young man he used to beat people up for fun. He only stopped because he was arrested for GBH. He was acquitted because a witness supported his (false he says) claim of self-defence. After this he got his act together and I admired that, but I think those tendencies are still deep inside him somewhere. He once punched a man for approaching me in a pub.

I can relate to you feeling much older. I feel physically and mentally worn out. I’m sorry you are feeling like this too, but if we keep putting one foot in front of the other, step by step we’ll start to get better. I’m glad you got the courage to get out and I’m sending you my very best wishes for a calmer, kinder, more loving future.