Pity vs Love, what's your take on this?

[thisworld]

Hello everyone

So, confusing pity and love is sometimes deemed a codependent trait. I have struggled with this all my life (especially when there is attraction in the equation so they get confused very easily for me). On top of it, I don't have a very clear definition of "love". Sometimes it feels like something that can hardly be put into words. Outside intimate relationships, I can separate the two because I don't feel love, but in relationships it's difficult. I can sense the difference when I look at results of these actions: love may result in many actions (including not doing anything and enjoying doing nothing comfortably), pity results in giving and fixing and things like that I suppose. But I'd like to hear your opinions. What's your take on this?

[joeramabeme]

My first thought is that, in a romantic relationship; Love is an action that emanates from the good of your insides and Pity emanates from the part of you that perceives a lack in yourself and is perhaps a projection of that onto another persons circumstances...   Empathy is the healthy corollary to Pity.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey TW-

What's your take on this?

Well, I'm not sure pity is the word I would use.  There's empathy, sympathy, compassion and pity, all in the same neighborhood, but different.  There's a condescension to pity, a realization of the suffering of someone or something else, and also a disengagement, and maybe a conclusion that that suffering is irreversible.  Sympathy is a concern and caring for someone, along with a desire to have it be better, whatever it is, but unlike empathy, sympathy doesn't include shared emotions; when we empathize with someone we "feel their pain".  Compassion to me is empathy in action: we feel someone's pain and are motivated to do something about it.  Anyway, got all dictionary for a moment, but pity to me is a disconnected, somewhat condescending place, maybe that's what you feel?

pity results in giving and fixing and things like that I suppose.

That sounds more like compassion to me?  And yes, if we embark on a giving and fixing adventure to the exclusion of our own needs, that would be codependency.  Or the advanced level: structuring our identity and self-worth around "giver/fixer".

On top of it, I don't have a very clear definition of "love". Sometimes it feels like something that can hardly be put into words.

Totally.  And trying to put it into words just screws it up for me.  Love to me is a feeling, I know when I feel it, I know when I don't, and that's good enough, anything else muddies the water.  Speaking of mud, I thought what I had with my ex was love, turns out what I had was an addiction to unfulfilled reciprocity, and that realization was the biggest gift of the relationship; I know the difference between those two feelings now.

[C.Stein]

I find pity is nearly synonymous with contempt.

[thisworld]

My first thought is that, in a romantic relationship; Love is an action that emanates from the good of your insides and Pity emanates from the part of you that perceives a lack in yourself and is perhaps a projection of that onto another persons circumstances...   Empathy is the healthy corollary to Pity.

Joeramabebe, thank you for this comment. There is a lot of food for thought in it. I was thinking that love is a more direct feeling, once it's there it's there. Sometimes, the reason is more than the sum of the parts I can express, more than the qualities I can overtly appreciate in a person. Pity seems more indirect; first, there needs to be a judgment "This thing that is happening to this person is bad." The way I understand it, you are saying that that judgment is related to a perceived personal lack. Is this something like "I wish I had received this treatment myself?" But then does that get activated only in pity, but not in love? As for the last statement, how do we differentiate empathy and pity? Is empathy feeling without judgment - is that possible? Is pity empathy with sadness?  

[thisworld]

I find pity is nearly synonymous with contempt.

C.Stein, I'm aware of what you are saying. I visualize it like people having an expression of contempt on their face and say "I pity you" which is probably a way of saying you are s*hit. But is there no other way of understanding pity? A more compassionate way?

[eeks]

My first thought is that, in a romantic relationship; Love is an action that emanates from the good of your insides and Pity emanates from the part of you that perceives a lack in yourself and is perhaps a projection of that onto another persons circumstances...   Empathy is the healthy corollary to Pity.

Joeramabebe, thank you for this comment. There is a lot of food for thought in it. I was thinking that love is a more direct feeling, once it's there it's there. Sometimes, the reason is more than the sum of the parts I can express, more than the qualities I can overtly appreciate in a person. Pity seems more indirect; first, there needs to be a judgment "This thing that is happening to this person is bad." The way I understand it, you are saying that that judgment is related to a perceived personal lack. Is this something like "I wish I had received this treatment myself?" But then does that get activated only in pity, but not in love? As for the last statement, how do we differentiate empathy and pity? Is empathy feeling without judgment - is that possible? Is pity empathy with sadness?  

You've said that the codependency literature mentions confusing love and pity... .how specifically does this play out in your relationships?  You've said you experience confusion between the two feelings (love and pity) when there is attraction in the mix.  But I guess what I'm asking is... .do you find yourself attracted to people who evoke pity in you, who seem to need to be fixed or a lot given to them?  When you feel pity while in a relationship, what actions do you take or not take based on those feelings?  

I'm guessing this might really be about finding a healthy balance between giving and receiving, caring for self and caring for the other, in relationships.  Would you say that is accurate?

[thisworld]

Well, I'm not sure pity is the word I would use.  There's empathy, sympathy, compassion and pity, all in the same neighborhood, but different.  There's a condescension to pity, a realization of the suffering of someone or something else, and also a disengagement, and maybe a conclusion that that suffering is irreversible.  Sympathy is a concern and caring for someone, along with a desire to have it be better, whatever it is, but unlike empathy, sympathy doesn't include shared emotions; when we empathize with someone we "feel their pain".  Compassion to me is empathy in action: we feel someone's pain and are motivated to do something about it.  Anyway, got all dictionary for a moment, but pity to me is a disconnected, somewhat condescending place, maybe that's what you feel?

Thank you for the dictionary approach FHTH, that may be just what I need! (Seems that I cannot distinguish between these things much:)) From what I understand, I operate at a level of empathy, always with all these concepts. With empathy it's very strong, but I don't know if ı experience sympathy without empathy either. I'm an INFJ with very strong T - due to many reasons that may differ- but I'm not sure that I want to become an empath, if this is what that is:)) Then, I'm also an idealist, so I take action based on beliefs and that is now synonymous with compassion:)) As for your description of pity, maybe that's what pity should be and maybe that's why 12 steps wants us to act out of love but not out of pity - not to feel superiority on the other person, not to be controlling in our judgments like this. Maybe, because I strongly believe in anti-hierarchy, I've made the concept useless now so cannot even differentiate. The way I experience pity is not difference from empathy but I can't say it's condescending. Interestingly,  if and when, say,  I deem myself morally better than someone else I don't pity them. Lots of thing for me to think about here.

[thisworld]

Eeks you are very right, maybe I should just stop dwelling on the nuances and focus on what this question wants us to think about:)) I have been doing that for a while and the answer evolves with different experiences. I have actually declared my eternal defeat in that regard some time ago. I started my adult life as a fixer, but have sorted out a lot for myself. I have slipped with this last relationship after 8 years and Al-Anon never seemed more relevant. ı have suspicions that being around my mother - relatively new for me- and having had lots of forced interactions with her family - my aunt was dying and we all took turns to look after her- may have had an effect on me. I have realized this only recently, thanks to this forum.

[bdyw8]

Hey TW - I know we were talking about this before and my mind just remembered something a very wise old-timer in AA said.  He made a distinction between "caring for" someone (a codependent trait) and "caring about" someone (a healthier love trait).

For sure, as a codependent, I always like to take on the role of "caring for" people.  It gives me a sense of worth and value that I don't otherwise have for myself.  I feel like I need to add value because I feel worthless about myself unless I can add value to someone's life, and they repay me by giving me a sense of worth - "thank you so much for saving me, bdyw8"... .  Ooo, now I can feel warm and fuzzy and full of purpose... .

"Caring about" someone, I think, gives more the perspective of "letting go" of trying to control the consequences of other peoples choices.  So if I care about my partner (or my children, or whomever), I can support them without controlling or trying to fix their problems.  This is a foreign concept to me as my parents were both fixers and I never had to learn from the consequences of my choices until I was in my late 20's probably.  I was constantly being rescued and bailed out... .  I would like to learn how to care about someone but still remain detached to the point that people can drag me down with them and my life and happiness is dependent on others... .

My two cents 

[thisworld]

Hey Bdyw8,

Thank you so much for this - my own sponsor doesn't do this question with me anymore, but I seem to have alerted the international fellowship now  Approached this way, it seems easier. I can see the difference between caring for and caring about. I also think that caring for someone is a perfectly acceptable adult trait when practiced healthily. I have nothing against suspending certain individual choices in a relationship for a certain while so that a need of a partner is fulfilled. I just need to know after which point I would be losing myself, getting enmeshed etc. In this last relationship, I was OK for caring for my partner in certain ways for 3 months - until he had a bit of suboxone time under his belt. We had agreed that his working on recovery for 3 months without much other stress could do us better in the long run. (At this point, he had already proved that sobriety without recovery never took him anywhere but a relapse anyway.) I don't see this as the most extraordinary thing on earth either, I'm pretty comfortable with this aspect of the issue. But I still have a problem with the concepts. It's almost like I don't have a pity category.  But with different comments here, I may be getting somewhere.

Can we both care for and let go of the consequences do you think if the other person is not against being cared for? (My sponsor would say "Enough!" so please feel free to do so:)) I see that this is the same thing as your understanding of "support." I know two kinds of support. 1: listening but not getting involved in terms of action. 2: offering more involved support (action support).

In this relationship, I was detached in a lot of senses. When my partner chose not to focus on recovery, I detached as well. My boundary was not his focus on recovery for three months - that was the plan but he didn't have to do that to live with me. It was moderate sobriety. Without moderate sobriety, I didn't want a relationship. I didn't want to practice full detachment letting go everything in my life space, in practice that just becomes too difficult sometimes.

Maybe I'm being stubborn, maybe I'm still in denial but I still think these are not super crazy codependent things if you take BPD out of the equation. The problem with BPD in the equation was that different problems triggering each other created a chaos I had never seen in my life before and and it took me a bit of time to grasp what was going on as I was foreign to BPD behaviours - like a person changing dramatically etc. I still think, personally, ignoring or rationalizing the red flags or ignoring my gut - something was so off when he was being the "soulmate" during the idealization phase is a higher risk-taking behaviour than agreeing to live in moderate sobriety.

Anyway, maybe trying to distinguish between love and pity is a luxury for me as I do these things in the infatuation phase anyway I think I behave much healthier around real love.   

[unicorn2014]

Hello everyone

So, confusing pity and love is sometimes deemed a codependent trait. I have struggled with this all my life (especially when there is attraction in the equation so they get confused very easily for me). On top of it, I don't have a very clear definition of "love". Sometimes it feels like something that can hardly be put into words. Outside intimate relationships, I can separate the two because I don't feel love, but in relationships it's difficult. I can sense the difference when I look at results of these actions: love may result in many actions (including not doing anything and enjoying doing nothing comfortably), pity results in giving and fixing and things like that I suppose. But I'd like to hear your opinions. What's your take on this?

Good question and timely for me! I'm working on my 10th step in ACA and that has us reintegrating the laundry list survival traits which includes loving those we can pity and rescue. I think you hit the nail on the head when you connected pity and fixing. I will let you know what it looks like on the other side of this.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey TW-

So this is funny, the quickie dictionary definitions for the terms we're talking about use each other in their definitions.  A little confusing on the surface, but also testament to how they're related closely:

empathy - the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

sympathy - feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.

pity - the feeling of sorrow and compassion caused by the suffering and misfortunes of others.

compassion - sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.

As for your description of pity, maybe that's what pity should be and maybe that's why 12 steps wants us to act out of love but not out of pity - not to feel superiority on the other person, not to be controlling in our judgments like this. Maybe, because I strongly believe in anti-hierarchy, I've made the concept useless now so cannot even differentiate. The way I experience pity is not difference from empathy but I can't say it's condescending. Interestingly,  if and when, say,  I deem myself morally better than someone else I don't pity them. Lots of thing for me to think about here.

What's jumping out for me, reading this thread and considering it in the context of a relationship dynamic, is equality.  If a healthy relationship is a 50/50 partnership, we can empathize with someone and we can have sympathy for them, notice the first one is something we do with someone and the second is something we do towards someone, but point is we can do those things and still stay even with each other in the relationship, there's no hierarchal upset.

In the case of compassion there can be the dynamic of caring for/cared for, although compassion includes the desire for the best for our partner, so we won't be inclined to take a one-up position, in a healthy relationship anyway, in an unhealthy one we may take the stance that we're taking control and "doing what's best" for our partner, because we know what's best and they don't, possibly a condescension and a means to control.

Now pity to me has a built-in condescension, like hey, what they're going through sucks, sucks to be them, glad it's not me.  To transcend that we need to transcend pity into one of the other terms/mindsets.  And there's the phrase to "take pity" on someone, which is to realize they lost and we're going to lighten up on them, they've had enough, still a condescension and a one-up-ness in a sense.

"Caring for" and "caring about" illuminates it well too: when we're "caring about" we can be engaging empathy and/or compassion, sympathy not so much, sympathy is a relating to but not necessarily caring about, like I can "sympathize" with the challenges of someone I don't even know.  But "caring for" could start out as compassion, and eventually it might skew the dynamic such that the "cared for" one is dependent on the "carer", and the one "caring for" is in control.  Now if that's the case we could lose respect for our partner and the relationship dynamic goes to hell, or worse, we could actually start to get our needs met and shape our identity around "caring for", to the exclusion of our own needs, which is codependency.

There's my linguistic spewing for the morning; anything jump out for you?

[C.Stein]

empathy - the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

sympathy - feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.

pity - the feeling of sorrow and compassion caused by the suffering and misfortunes of others.

compassion - sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.

I think the dynamic between all these is differentiated on a personal level.  Empathy and compassion have more personal risk/consequence as your own emotions are likely to be enmeshed with another persons.  Pity and sympathy have little to no personal risk/consequence.  With respect to a pwBPD this could explain why they have trouble with empathy and compassion within close interpersonal relationships but outwardly in general relationships can easily show/have pity and sympathy (appearing empathic and compassionate) ... .i.e. all the apparent characteristics of a caring and compassionate human being.   Once the emotional risk/consequence becomes greater the pwBPD goes from capable of to incapable of, mostly because I think they cannot see outside of their own emotional "needs".  

I think even "normal" people can also display a reduction of, or even inhibition of empathy and compassion as personal risk/consequence increases.  The reasons for this however differ on a personal basis, perhaps associated with past emotional pain.

I also believe there is a huge difference between caring for and caring about someone in normal circumstances.  This difference is extreme to the point of one being destructive (for) and the other being nurturing (about) with respect to your own actions.  

[thisworld]

FHTH hi

Thank you for the dictionary definitions, it took me some time to realize the absurdity of what I was doing after turning them into a diagram and staring at it:)) I know there is some resistance in me somewhere; I actually know that I don't have to understand something fully to be able to put it to good use. I do pretty well in this, too. Still, there is useless intellectual resistance somewhere. This time, too much analysis will not lead to paralysis! At one point, I may need to let this conceptual problem go. At the moment though, I'm still learning from friends and that's helpful.

What's jumping out for me, reading this thread and considering it in the context of a relationship dynamic, is equality.  If a healthy relationship is a 50/50 partnership, we can empathize with someone and we can have sympathy for them, notice the first one is something we do with someone and the second is something we do towards someone, but point is we can do those things and still stay even with each other in the relationship, there's no hierarchal upset.

I agree with many things you say here. However, I don't believe that only one person in a relationship can ensure that there is no hierarchical upset. If your partner believes that receiving help puts them at a lower position than the other partner, there isn't much you can do. I think this is associated with what criteria every one of us uses to evaluate self-worth. People who believe they are lovable equals no matter what seem to have less of a problem with it. Maybe, this is because "giving" has a special value in many cultures. It is valued a lot. I believe there is probably more strength in being able to take actually. Being able to take, say thank you but not associate it with self-worth. Tremendous power and maturity in that. If giving=positive, taking=negative is ingrained in someone, I believe there is always be an hierarchy even if none of the partners actually want it. 

What's your take on this? How can this be avoided or solved to a degree in a relationship?

Thanks again for all your comments.

[thisworld]

empathy - the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

sympathy - feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.

pity - the feeling of sorrow and compassion caused by the suffering and misfortunes of others.

compassion - sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.

I think the dynamic between all these is differentiated on a personal level.  Empathy and compassion have more personal risk/consequence as your own emotions are likely to be enmeshed with another persons.  Pity and sympathy have little to no personal risk/consequence.  With respect to a pwBPD this could explain why they have trouble with empathy and compassion within close interpersonal relationships but outwardly in general relationships can easily show/have pity and sympathy (appearing empathic and compassionate) ... .i.e. all the apparent characteristics of a caring and compassionate human being.   Once the emotional risk/consequence becomes greater the pwBPD goes from capable of to incapable of, mostly because I think they cannot see outside of their own emotional "needs".  

I think even "normal" people can also display a reduction of, or even inhibition of empathy and compassion as personal risk/consequence increases.  The reasons for this however differ on a personal basis, perhaps associated with past emotional pain.

I also believe there is a huge difference between caring for and caring about someone in normal circumstances.  This difference is extreme to the point of one being destructive (for) and the other being nurturing (about) with respect to your own actions.  

C.Stein, wow, thank you. This is such a new perspective for me and I associate it with what I term risk-taking for myself - that aspect of my personality is very significant for myself as I try to understand why and how I did what I did in my last relationship. As  for that enmeshment, today I was reading something from an old book of mine - Codependent's 12 step guide.

"I was so good at seeing the behaviours, especially the out-of-control behaviours, of another. Yet, I couldn't see unmanageability in my own life. I couldn't see myself. And I was trapped, locked into the victim role. People didn't just do things. They did things to me No matter what happened, each event felt like a pointed attempt to do me in.

My ability to separate myself from others - ... .- was nonexistent. I blended into the rest of the world like an amoeba."

So, yes, sometimes looking at the results of the feelings, concepts helps perhaps. No matter what concept I'm using, am I blending like an amoeba - or even using concepts to rationalize amoebaness/ amoebainity/virtuous amoebahood:))

Best,

[C.Stein]

So, yes, sometimes looking at the results of the feelings, concepts helps perhaps. No matter what concept I'm using, am I blending like an amoeba - or even using concepts to rationalize amoebaness/ amoebainity/virtuous amoebahood:))

I completely understand amoebainity.    

I am also one who prefers to blend into the background, but not necessarily completely.   I am a good observer and listener but I can also be assertive and overbearing when I feel my boundaries have been violated.  My ex, and some other women I have been involved with in the past, had an uncanny ability to push my buttons in a big way with only a few words.  This turned me into a raging bull and my amoebaness was gone.  Thankfully it only happened a few times, but those few times I am deeply ashamed of.  What I needed to do in these situations was embrace my amoebahood and  become an observer of my own feelings without attaching to them.  Perhaps I needed to empathize with myself to bring about some balance within.

[fromheeltoheal]

I agree with many things you say here. However, I don't believe that only one person in a relationship can ensure that there is no hierarchical upset. If your partner believes that receiving help puts them at a lower position than the other partner, there isn't much you can do.

Yes.  There's one partner, the other partner, and this third thing between them called a relationship that takes on a dynamic of its own.  All relationships, even the healthy ones, go through phases of independence, dependence, and interdependence, and it's a matter of degree and duration.  We all have ups and downs, good times and challenges, and if we need to lean on our partner for a while as we transcend something, great, having someone to lean on is one of the perks of a relationship, and as long as it's temporary and reciprocal, no worries, but when the dynamic makes a permanent shift to one partner being dependent on the other, not good.  And it's not up to either partner entirely, it's what the vibe between them looks like.  And a healthy relationship is one that spends most of its time in interdependence.

I think this is associated with what criteria every one of us uses to evaluate self-worth. People who believe they are lovable equals no matter what seem to have less of a problem with it. Maybe, this is because "giving" has a special value in many cultures. It is valued a lot. I believe there is probably more strength in being able to take actually. Being able to take, say thank you but not associate it with self-worth. Tremendous power and maturity in that. If giving=positive, taking=negative is ingrained in someone, I believe there is always be an hierarchy even if none of the partners actually want it.  

Yes, that ties into identity, beliefs, values and attachment styles, everything someone brings to the table.  And healthy relationships are ones in which both partners are in the relationship to give, they don't need to 'take', to have someone complete them, because they're already complete, already full.  And acting compassionately towards someone we care about, giving to that person, especially when they need it most, all good, but things go astray when someone is always taking, because that's all they can do, the other person gives, and gets off on giving to the point of codependency, then we have the dysfunctional roundy-round that is so common.

What's your take on this? How can this be avoided or solved to a degree in a relationship?

Well, the way I'm doing it is first I got in a relationship with a borderline, never got codependent but definitely got traumatized, left her, spun for a while, picked myself up, dusted myself off, had epiphanies that sometimes felt like light from on high, sometimes felt like a kick to the head, dug, processed, learned, didn't avoid, felt things all the way, evolved, grew, noticed the growth, became grateful for the relationship because of the growth it inspired, and onward... .

So here I am, 2016, a few more wrinkles, a bit more wisdom, a resolve to never, ever go there again, and a certain pride that I always more or less knew what a healthy relationship was, and was trying to go there with her, no worky, but at least I still know where I'm going, better fortified this time.

So to answer your question, take our best selves out into the world and pick better partners.  And now that we know better what that looks like, we got a better shot at doing it well.  Hallelujah!

[thisworld]

You've said that the codependency literature mentions confusing love and pity... .how specifically does this play out in your relationships?  You've said you experience confusion between the two feelings (love and pity) when there is attraction in the mix.  But I guess what I'm asking is... .do you find yourself attracted to people who evoke pity in you, who seem to need to be fixed or a lot given to them?  When you feel pity while in a relationship, what actions do you take or not take based on those feelings?  

I'm guessing this might really be about finding a healthy balance between giving and receiving, caring for self and caring for the other, in relationships.  Would you say that is accurate?

Oh, I noticed I forgot thinking about these questions. No, I don't find myself attracted to people who evoke pity in me. I was a fixer when I was younger. But then, too, I was never consciously "attracted" to fixing (subconsciously maybe it was different); never felt like I was a better person because of fixing someone. But I had a warped sense of loyalty based on friendship. I'd know my needs, verbally require that they are addressed in a relationship but still remain when they were not answered. I didn't have a big problem with leaving, either. But there was this "my partner is in trouble and is a friend, you never leave friends when they are in trouble" belief. This resulted in delaying my needs in one significant relationship but there were some other dynamics, too. Until the BPDex (3 month relationship), I didn't fix anyone or remain in a relationship with anyone like that for around 8 years. I was in a happy and satisfactory marriage for five years out of those 8 years. Then there was this crash-course of a relationship.

Do I give a lot to people? I think I do. I think I'm OK with that, too. I don't think there is a standard amount of giving that should work for everyone. The balance is inside us I think. I find that in the crisis mode, I may fail to listen to myself. I can do this most successfully when I'm alone. Having some peaceful alone time to myself is important for me as that's where I can really get closer with myself, organize my thoughts and feelings. I have realized that when I neglect this because of something else, I get into trouble. To me, this is perhaps the most important component of caring for the self.

Thank you Eeks for bringing this up.   

[C.Stein]

Oh, I noticed I forgot thinking about these questions. No, I don't find myself attracted to people who evoke pity in me. I was a fixer when I was younger. But then, too, I was never consciously "attracted" to fixing (subconsciously maybe it was different); never felt like I was a better person because of fixing someone.

I was, and still am I guess, attracted to people who are "damaged" in some way.  I don't believe it is conscious thing nor do I think it is pity.  It is something else, some unconscious attraction.  Perhaps if you were to replace "pity" with "sorrow" maybe it makes more sense?  I feel sorrow for them

and I want to help them?  I don't necessarily see this as codependent though as I never looked at it as "fixing" someone.  It can however be self-sacrificing!  While this is not a bad characteristic to have, if not careful you can open yourself up to being taken advantage of.

Looking back on these relationships I can remember thinking/talking about helping these women ... .not fixing them but providing them with support and helping them regain (or gain) something they had lost or never had.  I don't see myself as a fixer but rather as a builder.  I help provide the "tools and materials" necessary for the person to gain whatever they are missing on their own.  I help them help themselves.  

This has occurred on several occasions in past relationships (including recent exBPDgf).  Every relationship where I have helped someone gain more self-confidence, self-esteem, self-worth, individuality, independence, etc... .they eventually dumped me.  This may be coincidence or not but it does leave you feeling used, worthless and empty.  It's almost like what they gained in the relationship I lost ... .like I was a vending machine and once I was empty they had no use for me anymore.  It seems I got involved with takers that had very little (or nothing) to give.

There is also the issue of direction.  People who look to others to provide them with direction in life are really looking for someone to take responsibility for their lives.  They are looking for a scapegoat. ( )  

I have always felt very uncomfortable when put in this position, my exBPD being no exception.  I refuse to tell people what they should do with their lives and/or take responsibility for their lives.  I will however offer my honest and objective opinion but I always make it clear that it is just that, my opinion.  As soon as I feel someone attempting to make me responsible for their life I point it out.  My exBPD did this to me on several occasions and even though I made it crystal clear the decisions she made were hers and hers alone she still attempted to hold me responsible for some of her decisions and I imagine now she does hold me responsible ... .especially if her life is imploding.  

So this brings me to people who take advantage of you.  This is something I have always been resistant to, or at least try to be.  When I give I don't expect anything in return other than acknowledgement, appreciation and gratitude ... .i.e. a genuine thank you is more than sufficient.  The problem begins when someone starts expecting this and stops appreciating you.  This eventually erodes into a give-take relationship.  Love can sometimes blind me to this but I think subconsciously I start to see what is happening and I become less "giving" without consciously being aware of it.


errrr ... .please excuse the nonsensical rambling  

[fromheeltoheal]

I was, and still am I guess, attracted to people who are "damaged" in some way.  I don't believe it is conscious thing nor do I think it is pity.  It is something else, some unconscious attraction.  

I can relate CS.  The 'unconscious attraction' for me has been a belief that I'm not inherently lovable, so I have to do something to be loved, because just being isn't enough.  So if I can find someone 'damaged' then I can be a hero, a savior, and then they will love me.  And someone who already had their sht together doesn't need me for anything.  Sick that.

Every relationship where I have helped someone gain more self-confidence, self-esteem, self-worth, individuality, independence, etc... .they eventually dumped me.  

Yeah, doesn't that suck, been there.  You pick someone up, dust them off, get them back on their feet, they get some confidence and self esteem, and then take that out into the world with a renewed focus and meet someone new.

This may be coincidence or not but it does leave you feeling used, worthless and empty.  

Yes, of course, if I went into the relationship trying to do to be loved, did my best, and she left anyway, then it becomes confirmation that see, I'm really not lovable; that would leave us feeling pretty worthless.

Ultimately someone who doesn't think they're enough isn't very attractive, except to folks who can use that to meet their own agenda, someone who's running the same beliefs we are so it seems familiar and non-intimidating, so let's 'fix' each other, or someone who sees themselves as broken and in need of a fixer, someone in perpetual 'take' mode.

"You can't love someone until you love yourself" is such a trite platitude at this point that it doesn't mean anything.  So to take it further what I've been focusing on is vigilant self-compassion and self-protection.  We can get in the mode where we treat everyone else better than we treat ourselves, which doesn't do us any good, and also show up with porous boundaries because we don't know better, I didn't, and also because we're trying to let people in, to be loved.  That's fine in a sense, unless we're a little naive and let the wrong people in, because we weren't paying attention or just didn't have a clue.

So self-compassion and self-protection.  Being nice to ourselves is easy and feels really good, and new if we haven't spent much time there, and with that focus we get better at telling the inner critic to fck off too.  And self-protection is just another focus, pay attention to our gut feel, stay aware, use our newfound skills.  And after a while the fact that we like ourselves shows up all over and we get mighty attractive, for the right reasons.  Hallelujah! 

[C.Stein]

I can relate CS.  The 'unconscious attraction' for me has been a belief that I'm not inherently lovable, so I have to do something to be loved, because just being isn't enough.  So if I can find someone 'damaged' then I can be a hero, a savior, and then they will love me.  And someone who already had their sht together doesn't need me for anything.  Sick that.

This might deserve some further thought.  While I do feel I have a lot to offer at times I do struggle with self-esteem, which could be translated as feeling unlovable.  As with everyone however there are good and bad aspects and I recognize this, not only within myself but within others.  With my exBPD I was in a relatively good place when I met her, internally speaking, but I think there may have been a part of me wondering what she saw in me ... .why she would be attracted to me.  I'm not a bad looking guy by any means but at the same time I am not obsessed with personal appearance.  She is a good looking woman who is far more concerned about personal appearance than I (admitted being vain).  On the scale I would say we both fall around a 6-7, so neither one of us was "out of our league" so to speak.

I certainly have become a bit more self-conscious as I approach the golden mark in my life but I have aged well IMO.   So I wonder now was she attracted to me because I gave her what she needed at the time or was it because of me as an individual?   This question is more poignant now given how she threw me away like trash after a 2 year "relationship".  I suspect the former is more likely to be true than the latter.

Yes, of course, if I went into the relationship trying to do to be loved, did my best, and she left anyway, then it becomes confirmation that see, I'm really not lovable; that would leave us feeling pretty worthless.

I don't know if I went into the relationships to "do" in order to be loved as much as it is just who I am.  Generally speaking I am a generous and giving person, that is my nature.  I don't know if I "do" things to be loved and accepted but again this may deserve some further thought.  It however does raise the question, don't we all "do" things to be loved and accepted?  Certainly some might do more than others but where does it break down and become unhealthy?  Even the most apparently selfless act, short of giving your life for another, is to some extent selfish.  I think perhaps the true reasons behind the things we do might provide some light.  I did things for my ex when I initially met her because I wanted to help her in her time of need.  That said, if I am being honest with myself there was also selfish motive behind it as well.  Where is the line drawn here?  When does an apparent giving and selfless act become more selfish than selfless?

"You can't love someone until you love yourself" is such a trite platitude at this point that it doesn't mean anything.

I more or less agree.  It is human nature to love and not love parts of yourself.  I think the goal is to strike a healthy balance between the two.  There are parts that I love about myself and parts I don't.  This will never change.

[fromheeltoheal]

I certainly have become a bit more self-conscious as I approach the golden mark in my life but I have aged well IMO.   So I wonder now was she attracted to me because I gave her what she needed at the time or was it because of me as an individual?   This question is more poignant now given how she threw me away like trash after a 2 year "relationship".  I suspect the former is more likely to be true than the latter.

I find it helpful to go to the clinical side of the disorder when thinking about our exes: she was attracted to you initially because she saw you as someone who could 'complete' her, make her whole, someone she could attach to, you became an attachment, and a borderline can feel like they don't exist at all without an attachment, since they don't have a fully formed self of their own.  So a borderline always needs an attachment, and it was you for a while.  And when it became clear that the attachment and you were not perfect and/or she got the idea that you would abandon her, for reasons that may or may not have anything to do with reality, she let go of the attachment in search of a new one; it had nothing to do with who you are really, it could have been anyone.

I don't know if I "do" things to be loved and accepted but again this may deserve some further thought.  It however does raise the question, don't we all "do" things to be loved and accepted?  Certainly some might do more than others but where does it break down and become unhealthy?

It depends on our beliefs about ourselves.  If we don't consider ourselves inherently lovable, then we must do something to be loved, just being who we are isn't enough.  Or we could value ourselves highly and consider ourselves inherently lovable, and we're genuinely compassionate and do things for people because we've got more love than we need and want to share it with those we care about.  It's a continuum and it's up to us to decide where we are on it, and what we're going to do about it if we aren't OK with where we are.

Even the most apparently selfless act, short of giving your life for another, is to some extent selfish.  I think perhaps the true reasons behind the things we do might provide some light.  I did things for my ex when I initially met her because I wanted to help her in her time of need.  That said, if I am being honest with myself there was also selfish motive behind it as well.  Where is the line drawn here?  When does an apparent giving and selfless act become more selfish than selfless?

Yep, there are no truly selfless acts, because if we do something for someone, whether they know if or not, we feel good about it and ourselves, so we get something out of it.  Again it goes back to beliefs: are we doing it because we want that feel-good buzz, absolutely nothing wrong there, or are we doing it because we don't feel worthy and feel that we must?

There are parts that I love about myself and parts I don't.  This will never change.

With this will never change being a belief in itself.  I choose to believe that humans are perfectly imperfect and perfection is an impossible standard, and the only thing that matters is developing relationships with folks who accept us warts and all, as we do them; we are who we are in relation to others, and the key these days is to develop those relationships with empowering others, with the new focus coming from being in a relationship with someone who definitely was NOT that.

Take care of you!

[unicorn2014]

"Caring for" and "caring about" illuminates it well too: when we're "caring about" we can be engaging empathy and/or compassion, sympathy not so much, sympathy is a relating to but not necessarily caring about, like I can "sympathize" with the challenges of someone I don't even know.  But "caring for" could start out as compassion, and eventually it might skew the dynamic such that the "cared for" one is dependent on the "carer", and the one "caring for" is in control.  Now if that's the case we could lose respect for our partner and the relationship dynamic goes to hell, or worse, we could actually start to get our needs met and shape our identity around "caring for", to the exclusion of our own needs, which is codependency.

There's my linguistic spewing for the morning; anything jump out for you?

Wow from heel to heal, that is an awesome post. My ex husband always put me on edge when he used the words care for or take care of as he is a substance abuser with an untreated mood disorder. When I hear him use those words whether he's referring to himself or to our daughter, I feel manipulated. I know this board is about personal inventory, but I think before I can get to what those words mean to me I have to get out how other people have maligned those words with me.

[unicorn2014]

empathy - the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

sympathy - feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.

pity - the feeling of sorrow and compassion caused by the suffering and misfortunes of others.

compassion - sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.

I think the dynamic between all these is differentiated on a personal level.  Empathy and compassion have more personal risk/consequence as your own emotions are likely to be enmeshed with another persons.  Pity and sympathy have little to no personal risk/consequence.  With respect to a pwBPD this could explain why they have trouble with empathy and compassion within close interpersonal relationships but outwardly in general relationships can easily show/have pity and sympathy (appearing empathic and compassionate) ... .i.e. all the apparent characteristics of a caring and compassionate human being.   Once the emotional risk/consequence becomes greater the pwBPD goes from capable of to incapable of, mostly because I think they cannot see outside of their own emotional "needs". 

This is also a really profound post.

My partner used to tell me quite frequently that I was the first person he cared about personally although he was able to care about others on an abstract level before.

[thisworld]

Hello everyone

And thank you for your contributions. I think everything you have written are things that I can go back and read at different times in my life, finding out how I’m doing. (Then I'll think about how you are all doing )

   

I have been thinking about independence, intedependence and dependence a lot. I think sometimes positive concepts may hide something negative underneath as well. For instance, to me, independence is a positive concept and I have never had problems with it. Independence is pretty easy for me, BUT also because asking for help has not always been that easy due to upbringing – I sometimes think that should even be called downbringing  So, my goal has been healthy independence for a decade now. Likewise, when I don’t detach healthily, I respond to hurt coming from being pushed away by distancing myself rather than feeling the urge to chase. When this affects my approach to life in general, I become more dismissive about life and relationships in theory. (Then I find a wound-mate and forget about all this )

I tried to think of my relationship with the BPDex. It was brief but very tumultous. He was an addict but I still think things got tumultous particularly because of BPD, not addiction – though of course BPD triggering addiction resulted in chaos.  I think what made it so tumultous was constant boundary busting. There wasn’t a single, single boundary that wasn’t busted. Boundary here does not mean clearly stated boundaries. I think a preference was seen as a boundary, a like was seen as a boundary. Basically everything that could mean like a blurred definition of my existence –  a self-confident ameiboid!  - was busted. I have rarely seen something more emotionally exhausting than this in life.

I also think interdependence was a fantasy of mine in this relationship and even  I couldn’t act along this because there is something in some “perpetual takers” that condition you NOT TO EVER ASK FOR SOMETHING, either. I think the dynamic is not based only on one giving and one taking. The giver also learns through everyday reactions that when they ask for something, they will be rejected. Or at least, they will not receive what they asked for and they will also experience a lot of negative reactions. Like, probably it will never be like a healthy No.  I think our relationship quickly became the independent but co-habiting life of two people with one of them at the same time depending on the other, if this means anything. 

I have been thinking about self-compassion, too. That’s not a skill I had naturally, again due to my upbringing. I had the critical head voice instead. I remember  feeling super smug when I first started positive self-talk. My tip to myself was to treat myself at least at good as  I treat people I love. I didn’t have much experience with self-love, but at least I knew how to treat loved ones well. So, I decided to use that. I try to speak to myself the way I speak to my best female friend.

Caring for, caring about, from the perspective of my ex. This is something I struggled with. How could someone who had so much empathy for everyone else could be so unempathetic to me? I simply couldn’t work my head around it. Then I found a lot of validation on the detachment forum where many people talked about how they felt their exes could “walk over their corpses” to help other people. Nowadays, this doesn’t make me sad like it did; I know that it was part of the economy of the disorder. I stopped taking this personally.

Selfish acts and selflessness: Again, thank you for bringing this up. I feel this deserves another thread in its own right. I never think “good” people (myself included) are actually as selfless as they readily feel sometimes. This understanding and accepting this, whether everyone agrees with it or not,  has helped me remove some very important codependent traits in myself.