The dance class decision

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I can hear I think that compromise is no longer an option either. It's tough for sure.

I will not compromise on abusive behavior.

I get it that people change.  We had 15 good years, 3ish really sucky years, 2ish years of what I would call improvement and 2 months of (not even sure what to call this).

Everyone please keep the observations coming.  I want to find a way to help this work, especially because I realize I will have a r/s with my wife for the rest of our lives.  It took about 5 years for my SIL and her ex to get to a place of civility and effective coparenting.  SIL is way worse "BPDish" than my wife.

I really do appreciate everyone reading my threads and providing insight.

FF

[formflier]

I can hear I think that compromise is no longer an option either. It's tough for sure.

I will not compromise on abusive behavior.

I get it that people change.  We had 15 good years, 3ish really sucky years, 2ish years of what I would call improvement and 2 months of (not even sure what to call this).

Everyone please keep the observations coming.  I want to find a way to help this work, especially because I realize I will have a r/s with my wife for the rest of our lives.  It took about 5 years for my SIL and her ex to get to a place of civility and effective coparenting.  SIL is way worse "BPDish" than my wife.

I really do appreciate everyone reading my threads and providing insight.

FF

[sweetheart]

ff it's worth saying that nothing about how this forum works ever advocates, tolerating, compromising or engaging in abusive behaviour within a relationship. Neither do I.

What is less straight forward is how we define abuse. There have been incidents that you have outlined with your w here that I have not felt were abusive, rude yes, but not abusive.

When our threshold for tolerance decreases because we are burnt out, it is this reactionary stance that short circuits our ability to compromise. It is easy to get tunnel vision as you hunker down and prepare for battle. So then it becomes, 'my way or the highway,' which as you are finding perpetuates the conflict and also escalates it.

[formflier]

 

Yep, and I can tolerate and work on a r/s where there is rude or insensitive behavior.

I'm sure I do that as well.  We all do.

Doesn't make it right.

Controlling someone elses sleep is, IMO, physical abuse even though that person wasn't touched.  That I have sleep disabilities is icing on the cake, I would consider this abusive even if a person could sleep anywhere,

Breaking things in front of someone, breaking your stuff is, IMO an abusive way to show dominance/bullying.  See what I can do to you and you can stop me.  Basically daring me to to physical and stop her.

Putting Daddy on trial and bringing in kids, abusive to me and to the kids.

If it was "just" silent treatment or wanting to talk at odd times, I can totally deal with that.

FF

[sweetheart]

 ff all the behaviours that you highlight in your reply are symptomatic of dysregulations associated with BPD,  and of course you do not have to remain in the vicinity of any of that behaviour, neither should you. It is however behaviour typical of this disorder. Your w in those moments of dysregulated behaviour would lack the mental capacity to make balanced informed choices and decisions. It is not a level playing field for her. It can't be, otherwise you would not be on this forum.

Just though as needing your sleep is absolutely crucial to your emotional well-being and critical to your day to day functioning, so much so that you need a machine and medical equipment to facilitate this.

Your w also has chronic and enduring mental health needs that impair her cognitive functioning. Add to this a questionable level of insight and heightened emotional arousal, from the recent move and subsequent conflict dynamics, it is you that she is wanting to rely on to be her c-pap machine, just until she returns to baseline functioning like she did before.

Even if she manages to regulate her emotions and behaviour by herself which in my experience will be extremely unlikely, this is the nature of the illness. It will always be part of who she is.

[Verbena]

Yep... .and I can tolerate and work on a r/s where there is rude or insensitive behavior.

I'm sure I do that as well.  We all do.

Doesn't make it right.

Controlling someone elses sleep is... .IMO... physical abuse even though that person wasn't touched.  That I have sleep disabilities is icing on the cake, I would consider this abusive even if a person could sleep anywhere...

Breaking things in front of someone... .breaking your stuff is... IMO an abusive way to show dominance/bullying.  See what I can do to you and you can stop me.  Basically daring me to to physical and stop her.

Putting Daddy on trial and bringing in kids... .abusive to me and to the kids.

If it was "just" silent treatment or wanting to talk at odd times... .I can totally deal with that.

FF

I agree that all of this behavior  you described is, indeed, abusive.  The emotional damage being done to the children is by far the worst of it IMO.  

YOu've said that you had a smooth marriage for fifteen years, so I am guessing that your oldest one or two escaped much of the damage caused by your wife's behavior.  The really young children, though, have seen plenty of the dysfunction already and will continue to do so if your wife does not get better.  This will be what they grow up thinking is normal.  

[formflier]

   It will always be part of who she is.

Perhaps part of my hope, denial, or whatever you want to call it is that it has not always been a part of her.

15 good years, 3 that sucked, 2 building back and 2 months of horror.

Where there moments in those 15 years that seemed unreasonable or perhaps showed hints, sure.  I am sure you could find moments in my life that showed hints of things.

My wife, in the past, has shown the ability to get better and live normally.  I understand there are stories on here of people that have been this way for most of their lives.

I also acknowledge there is a chance my wife has changed and this is the way she will be.  I hope that is not the case, but it may be.

FF

[flourdust]

I think many of us have clung to that hope, past the point of all reason.

People can change and improve. But people can't rewind themselves. Even if your wife becomes less reactive and paranoid, she will never rewind to the person who wasn't that way. Also -- you will never rewind to the person who didn't have this experience with his wife.

This is a truth I have had to face. Even if my wife was to overcome her challenges tomorrow and become a loving, rational partner -- I can't unlive what I've lived through. Too much has been said. Too much trust has been broken. Too much pain has been caused. It could -- conceivably -- get better. But it can never go back to being how it was. And that means it might just be too broken to ever be fixed.

[Fian]

I think many of us have clung to that hope, past the point of all reason.

People can change and improve. But people can't rewind themselves. Even if your wife becomes less reactive and paranoid, she will never rewind to the person who wasn't that way. Also -- you will never rewind to the person who didn't have this experience with his wife.

This is a truth I have had to face. Even if my wife was to overcome her challenges tomorrow and become a loving, rational partner -- I can't unlive what I've lived through. Too much has been said. Too much trust has been broken. Too much pain has been caused. It could -- conceivably -- get better. But it can never go back to being how it was. And that means it might just be too broken to ever be fixed.

I don't know about this.  While it may not be possible to rewind a person to be an exact replica of where they were in the past, I don't see any reason why in certain measurable categories they can't improve.  The entire point of BPD treatment is that you believe it is possible to improve the person and their behaviors.

[flourdust]

I don't know about this.  While it may not be possible to rewind a person to be an exact replica of where they were in the past, I don't see any reason why in certain measurable categories they can't improve.  The entire point of BPD treatment is that you believe it is possible to improve the person and their behaviors.

Yes, I said people can improve. My point was that improving isn't the same as returning to the past. A relationship contains the accumulated shared experiences of the couple. That history doesn't go away even if the mentally ill spouse recovers ... .and that history might have caused too much damage to the relationship for it to be repaired by that point.

[Fian]

It doesn't sound like to me that FF is at that point.  If she takes steps back towards a healthy relationship, he will as well.  Now on her side, who knows?  Since she is driven by emotion, it wouldn't surprise me if it is easier for her to let the past go, as feelings come and go.

[formflier]

 

I am 100% positive that if the abusive behavior goes away that I can put it behind me.  Forgiveness is a wonderful thing.

I am also positive that I can't go forward with her current choice of how to conduct the r/s.

I get it this sounds black and white, perhaps it is.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I totally get what you're saying, FF. You've hit your bottom line, something that many of us have been encouraging Ceruleanblue to find.

For me, I don't have any problem sleeping, but when my husband used to wake me out of a sound sleep at 3 a.m., drunk on his ass, and in a slurring voice, tell me how much he loved me, I would go ballistic.

If I were also faced with the disrespect and parental alienation you've endured, I certainly would be at the end of my rope.

I find your feelings totally justified and I understand why you don't want this to continue.

I hope that your wife really gets how she is impacting your life when you do counseling. PwBPD can be so oblivious of their influence upon loved ones.

[formflier]

I hope that your wife really gets how she is impacting your life when you do counseling. PwBPD can be so oblivious of their influence upon loved ones.

Yep, me too.  She doesn't have to "get it" on day one and probably won't. 

I don't want to set arbitrary deadlines and timelines but I'm hoping that you guys will help me figure out if there is any real progress.

We have had MC before that was effective and we have had MC before where it was just another forum to hurl her words at me.

I think it will be obvious pretty quick what she is looking for. 

FF