A point where I stop seeming to have empathy

[Cipher13]

Not sure how I want to start this post off. I'm sure many others have come to the point where they stop having empathy and caring how they should react to little personal jabs and cutting comments from their BPD others.  It was last night that I for some reason just ask a very quick and simple question out of the blue.  "Why do you hate me?"  I should have been better prepared for the answer. I would have thought after all I have been through these last 14 plus years I could handle the answer I thought I knew. 

Her answer... ."Because of everything you have done in the past to me. No matter what you do or say or attempt I will never get over it and you will pay for it for the rest of you life. There is no apology that will be good enough. That is why I make you do all these things for me. You must pay for what you did as it is unforgiveable."

Just an FYI no I didn't not murder anyone or anything as that would justify something that cold. I also do not have an affair as I could maybe even see that as being warranting this kind of scathing behavior. Nope I am ashamed of what I did however and have asked to be forgiven and never have returned to that again. I have looked up some less than clothed women on the internet. 

Now every time that she is no in sight of me I am trying to look that up or thinking about it. Other times I have been accused of having girls friends and affairs. Including her sister.  I do not have the player type persona believe me. I am a very shy guy around women.

Anyway last night I was wide awake the whole night knowing I can not do anything to help make the situation better even though she claims to have given me all I need to fix it. That would be romance all the time any time and on her command. Which is where the whole lack of empathy and feeling come from. I do not have feelings like that and sex is chore almost for me. She wants me to initial it more but when I attempt she blasts my attempt as lacking romance or being appropriate. "Its freaking because I don't want to. That's why it's so stale." I want to say.

I also make the whole situation worse. I do not stand up for myself and I turn off my distain for her and what she is asking me and I smile and put on my fake "its all good" attitude. It makes me sick to my stomach.

Thanks for letting me vent.

[formflier]

You got a tough answer to a tough question.

I'm curious how you decided to ask the question in the first place?

Also interested in what "standing up for yourself" would look like?

Want to make sure I understand where you are coming from before I give any more advice.

Hang in there,

FF

[Cipher13]

To answer you first question it was a play off of something my wife says a lot for what appears no reason. We will be sitting witching TV or driving in the car and she will say "You are so mean to me" or just "You're mean". So out of the blue after about 30 minutes after she mentioned one of those comments. I just said "Why do you hate me." Kind of in the same tone she uses for when she tells me I am being mean.

Standing up for myself is a bit longer to explain. I'll keep it short and simple. I will do just about everything she asks me to do in order to prevent arguments and fights about the stupidest stuff. Get her vitamins... .(as she is right next to them) Pick out her clothes... .iron them... .get her glass of fresh water... put gas in her car (right after she gets home and has driven past at least 5 on the way home). It goes on and on from there.

[formflier]

 

So, how are the current "tactics" working out for you?

I'm seeing two tactics here (can you tell I am retired military?   )

1.  Matching her tone and way of speaking.

2.  Doing things to avoid arguments (if you want to rephrase this tactic, please do)

FF

[Wrongturn1]

I have looked up some less than clothed women on the internet. 

I did the same thing almost 11 years ago, and my uBPDw continues to bring it up to this day, in spite of the fact that I have eliminated that behavior and no longer have any urge to do that.  BPDs seem unable to ever forgive or forget this type of thing.

How long ago was your incident?

[Cipher13]

So... .how are the current "tactics" working out for you?

To be blunt as well as expected. I'm a pleaser and one who avoid conflict. So I have molded myself to please instead of push back to avoid confrontations.

How long ago was your incident?

6 years or so. She can remember it as if it were happening. I have move so far past it  can not recall much of the time period. I only recall the reactions she has had.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I get it!

I have not been forgiven for regretting marrying my wife, though she has deemed to live with the horror.  I have not been forgiven for a long list of things.  If I get bored, I should list the things for which I will never be forgiven.  She used to dredge up any of a number of my past sins to apply guilt and manipulate me.  Some of my mortal sins include: I stayed up and played video games on a weekend night when my daughter had a birthday party the next day, and I was tired.  I have not been forgiven for having a serious girlfriend - and a positive relationship at that - two years before I met my wife!  

Then, I took those things our her reach.  

But, that is until I reached the point of DGAF*.  I have edged ever closer to that point, and now I have noticed that I will not really filter what I say if I don't feel like it. I won't engage her if don't feel like it.  I'll go as long as I want without arguing with her - which is pointless anyway.  I don't hater her, I am just apathetic now and outside of her manipulation and control zone, for the most part.   I do catch her trying what used to work (tantrums, "reasoning," pouting, withholding) and I sometimes catch myself doing what I used to do, but, by and large, I just rule her out of my mind.  

And, I think what Formflier is alluding to is that when you meet her on her terms it will never go well.  


DGAF = I Don't Give A *hoot*

[Cipher13]

SamwizeGamgee

I know what you are saying. I am chastised for wanting to what I want and not what she wants.

No it never goes well on her terms and on my terms I have only pressed it 2 times and it was one of the worse things I ever witnessed. After work I am to "pick up a surprise for her" when I go to pick up some contacts at the eye doctor on the way home. And I need to surprise her with something special for out 15th anniversary. I don't even want to make it to that day. That's sounds harsh but that's how I feel.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I hear you.  Next month is our 19th anniversary.  I don't know how to suggest that maybe this year, we'll just delete the date from the calendar due to bad associations to the date.   Awkward topic.   

[flourdust]

Since you've laid it out on the line, what is stopping you from picking up that conversation with "Since you feel that way, let's get divorced"?

[formflier]

And, I think what Formflier is alluding to is that when you meet her on her terms it will never go well.  

Yes, yes, yes.  Fighting the fight of a disordered person is not going to go well, unless you are disordered yourself.  Kinda an odd way to look at it.  You don't understand the rules or have the point of view to pull it off.

"fight" your own fight.

There is a second point here.

I got the feeling that there is frustration that tactics aren't and haven't been working.  So, do something different

Make for dang sure that you no longer do failed things. 

Last thought.  Don't "push back".  Don't "give in" either.  Live your life, have good boundaries.  Let them tire of banging into your boundaries, no pushing back needed.

How does this sound?  What can YOU change to get to more of this idea?

FF

[Cipher13]

What can YOU change to get to more of this idea?

This is what I am struggling with. I don't really know what I can change. It feels like I am preprogramed to be the way I am. I hate what that feels like. I know I want something to be different. I think I just want her to do it all and be the one that ends it. But when I thought that was happening before I didn't want to be the one that looked like I was giving up or that I didn't care so I fought to stay. Never actually wanting to. Every single time I said "I don't want to do this, I don't want this to be over" Inside I was screaming yes,yes yes, this needs to happen o please make it happen. Why would I do that? Why would if the opportunity was there (and it has been before several times) why do I fight to return to the situation I want nothing to do with. Only to not be perceived as not caring? I don't get it.

[Cat Familiar]

What can YOU change to get to more of this idea?

This is what I am struggling with. I don't really know what I can change. It feels like I am preprogramed to be the way I am. I hate what that feels like. I know I want something to be different. I think I just want her to do it all and be the one that ends it. But when I thought that was happening before I didn't want to be the one that looked like I was giving up or that I didn't care so I fought to stay. Never actually wanting to. Every single time I said "I don't want to do this, I don't want this to be over" Inside I was screaming yes,yes yes, this needs to happen o please make it happen. Why would I do that? Why would if the opportunity was there (and it has been before several times) why do I fight to return to the situation I want nothing to do with. Only to not be perceived as not caring? I don't get it.

I think it's called "NiceGuy-itis", a passive syndrome where you hold up your end to be a good person and you wait for the person who is wreaking havoc to end the relationship. I did the female version of it for years and my ex kept pushing and pushing my boundaries, doing more and more outrageous behavior.

Finally something snapped inside me and I got to the DGAF stage (Thanks Samwize for that acronym!) Once there, I didn't care how other people might perceive me--so what if they think I'm an a-hole! I still was going to be honorable, the way I perceived it, but I was no longer going to lie about my feelings to spare his. And guess what, he did try to start a smear campaign against me, but people who knew me well didn't buy it and it just made him look even more pathetic.

[SamwizeGamgee]

This is making me think more about this pattern.  I remember over a year ago, my wife would rage, and pout, and cry and corner me into conversations and arguments - manipulating me in effect to saying I love her and how much I want er and to "fight" for her (us).  That had worked for the first 17 years.  Now though, I got to the point of saying enough.  She hasn't pushed for the same thing for a good while now.  My DGAF (you're welcome Cat) is operational now, and the truth will come out if she pushed. 

I know what it was like to always be the one who did all the work in a relationship. Why do we fight to stay in a destructive relationship? 

It has to come from you, but, decide to break it down as you can.

[Cipher13]

- manipulating me in effect to saying I love her and how much I want her and to "fight" for her (us).

This has also bee tossed my way when I did show signs I might accept her offers to leave. She wanted me to fight for her. She wanted to see what would happen and every time I would battle to get her back. The first time I hesitated in doing that was the first time she has said I should be fighting to get her back.  She has never fought to get me back. At least not in a way I recognized.

[SamwizeGamgee]

- manipulating me in effect to saying I love her and how much I want her and to "fight" for her (us).

This has also bee tossed my way when I did show signs I might accept her offers to leave. She wanted me to fight for her. She wanted to see what would happen and every time I would battle to get her back. The first time I hesitated in doing that was the first time she has said I should be fighting to get her back.  She has never fought to get me back. At least not in a way I recognized.

At present, my wife is trying to be above-normal nice, as much as she can control I think.  I'm kind of playing along, and things are passable now.  But, there's still a void, and I think un-fixable.  I suspect she senses enough to know that threatening to leave, or make it difficult for me, or cut me off, or whatever, will be met with clear signs of my relief.  I don't know if you have gotten to that point if at all, but, it was a clarifying moment for me.  I took back control of me by denying her any more hold over me.  Not really a heaven-blessed marriage, but a nice negotiating-with-a-terrorist point.

[hergestridge]

My DGAF moment came 20 years into our relationship. It was also the thing that broke the camel's back and my BPD wife left me a couple of weeks later. I shouted at her "You're not doing that to my daughter". She went silent and didn't mention the incident until a couple of weeks later when she came to me and said she didn't love me anymore.

It's all very frustrating. It seemed passive aggressive was the only way to go with her. Telling her "no" or "I don't accept that" made her see red. I always blamed myself for not setting boundaries with her. Now I realize that setting boundaries only would have resulted in ending the relationship.

[Cipher13]

It's all very frustrating. It seemed passive aggressive was the only way to go with her. Telling her "no" or "I don't accept that" made her see red. I always blamed myself for not setting boundaries with her. Now I realize that setting boundaries only would have resulted in ending the relationship.

I agree with this. I to have seen saying "no" begins the raging. She has even told me before you don't ever tell me "no".  You did something horrible to me and you have toe spend the rest of your life making it up to me.

I also lacked setting up boundaries early on in our relationship. I would be every penny I had if I had put up healthy boundaries and stuck with them we would never have gotten married. I also ignored the warning signs. When she had a full blown melt down because I wanted to spend a weekend with my Dad and Grandfather at my Dad's cabin she went bonkers. Ripped up picture of us. Through clothes around and kept telling me to not go. Then kept telling me when I was there to come home. I am ashamed to admit I cut the weekend a day short and came home. Stupid move. That was the earliest and most obvious red flag at the time. It was a month before our wedding.

[formflier]

 I always blamed myself for not setting boundaries with her. Now I realize that setting boundaries only would have resulted in ending the relationship.

Perhaps it would have ended the r/s, perhaps it would not have.

Boundaries are an important thing to discuss.

Theoretically, you are correct in "blaming yourself" for not setting your boundaries.  Nobody else is responsible for that.  They are your boundaries.  I would use a different word than "blame", but you have the idea correct.

Another way of saying it.  You are responsible for letting others know what is important to you.  They have the responsibility of letting you know if they respect it or not.  They have a choice.

Then, depending on their answer, you have choices about the future of the r/s.

This was a bit theoretical, but boundaries are critical to understand correctly.

Boundaries ARE NOT something you ":)O" to other people.  They are for you.

FF

[hergestridge]

Yes, boundaries is something we set for ourselves. However, for someone with BPD, setting boundaries is something we do to them. It's like a threat to them. At least that was what I experienced.

My wife seriously believed I was the man with no needs. Once it turned out I had needs things fell apart. That's the problem with being a people pleaser. You don't show much of yourself really so you paradoxically become difficult to please.

Cipher13:

I have a similar story to the cabin weekend. I was in a band and we had a recording contract. But every time we went to the studio my wife had a meltdown. She even managed to track down the phone number to the studio and started calling the engineer telling him to put me on the phone to him. This is one of the big regrets of my life:

I quit recording and said no to touring because my wife couldn't stand me being away from home. But it was always like that. If I was really passionate about something (house, cats, music) she would see that as a threat ("Is that more important than me... .?". Me trying to please her really sent my life in the wrong direction.

[formflier]

  However, for someone with BPD, setting boundaries is something we do to them. It's like a threat to them. At least that was what I experienced.

IN many cases this is how they experience it.  That doesn't change how we do it.  We can empathize with them, but ultimately we leave it up to the how to process it.

Most of the trouble (IMO) comes when we try to "rescue" pwBPD from feeling bad feelings when we are doing "normal" things.

There is a great post about "who is in charge of their emotions".  They are.  End of story.



FF

[Cat Familiar]

I've had to cultivate my inner narcissist. Learning to not care how he feels is hard for a born and bred codependent, but on the flip side he often doesn't give a flying f* about my feelings, so why do I need to be so overly concerned with his?

This attitude shift doesn't come easy, but is accompanied by an unexpected sense of freedom. And the irony is that the less I worry about his feelings, the more he feels a sense of freedom too. My over concern must feel like hypervigilant parentifying to him and he dosnt like that! Nor would I!

[Cipher13]

As I take a look at some of the other posts I can't help be see that many others have had similar situations and most have bee some what successful in applying boundaries. That's my biggest struggle setting them up and then enforcing them. They are for me but I lack the conviction to keep them staffed with the proper security force.

What I would really like is to apply a real boundary. Meaning one with a physical border and distance. I am such a coward when it comes to even talking to my wife about my feelings. It has never gone well. It's almost like "damn you for having feelings" and it always and I mean always turns from that to how I am hurting hers or I am being so cruel. So after years of that I have shut down and just take the abuse I suppose you would call it.

[SamwizeGamgee]

As I take a look at some of the other posts I can't help be see that many others have had similar situations and most have bee some what successful in applying boundaries. That's my biggest struggle setting them up and then enforcing them. They are for me but I lack the conviction to keep them staffed with the proper security force.

What I would really like is to apply a real boundary. Meaning one with a physical border and distance. I am such a coward when it comes to even talking to my wife about my feelings. It has never gone well. It's almost like "damn you for having feelings" and it always and I mean always turns from that to how I am hurting hers or I am being so cruel. So after years of that I have shut down and just take the abuse I suppose you would call it.

You hit the nail on the head there.  My wife would commonly interpret me talking about feelings as my being angry.  It is weird.  So, I shut down with her.  I finally did go see a therapist and spent the first three sessions mostly talking and getting it all out.  It felt really good to throw something out there and not be judged. 

Try it!

[Cat Familiar]

Cipher, it's possible that she may never be trustworthy enough to share your true feelings with without having that backlash.

I've found that I need to share feelings that have something to do with my husband with people outside our marriage--with my friends and with a therapist that I see who helps me manage living with a spouse with a personality disorder.

Really any time I've had strong feelings that are related to our relationship dysfunction, it has not gone well. He's turned it around to try and guilt trip me for not being appreciative enough, told me that I hate him, played victim--you name it. He's got a great toolbox of responses that keep him from looking within.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Precisely, Cat!