I never really loved you anyway.

[earlgrey]

Was talking (quite calmly) to my W. this morning (that’s Waif BTW) and she says….’ I never really loved you anyway’ (one D and 1 marriage later).’ I loved ‘Bill’ (her ex) and you were always kind of glass half full at best.’

I paused for thought.

Is this some kind of ‘pride’ talking, or the honest declarations of a child-like mind?

I know of 2 other similar r/s to mine (BPDish female married to ‘nice guys’) and both wives have admitted to marrying for ‘security’ reasons. They (the women) have both said love wasn’t the driving force. Their real love had lain elsewhere in tatters, trashed by that lover - my W. too.

In the early days of conflict I remember thinking ‘she doesn’t love me’. Naturally full denial.

From my way of seeing the world if someone is married to another for ulterior motives, it would be extremely challenging to keep in check feelings of resentment and selling yourself cheap. So feeling p*ssed with the world and yourself, you set about giving your spouse a hard time to show that you do have some self-respect and while you have agreed to stuff you don’t really want you are not going to lie down and take it smiling – so to speak.

Much of the above scenario would play out like a BPD inspired r/s.

But instead of childhood wounding we have jilted lovers going on to cause havoc.

(Role reversal, guys do much the same thing for pretty women)

So are we digging too deep into childhood traumas, which are perhaps of less relevance, when adult experience is perhaps the more pertinent?

This theory still needs a bit of work when you bring in the kids. The kids have done nothing wrong, yet in my experience get pretty much the same treatment as the ‘unloved’ spouse.

Not to throw out completely the work of DSM et al  , perhaps the BPD gets a boost with adult romantic trauma. Of the 3 women (above) all had significant adult r/s trauma.

Just my two (euro) cents.

[gotbushels]

Well, I think the possibly very different interpretations of what love is could have something to do with it. Love can mean different things to different people. I'm sure that's really jarring to you whatever the case. When your spouse after children seems to have been running on a differing "love assumption" is bizarre. I'd then recall with you that what she said seems to have been the case, in pwBPD-world today.

My ex would say everything from I love you 200% to I love you -200% so I basically stopped putting weight into things like that. For me, they plainly started to signal how much time I had left in the given dysregulation session du jour.

Regarding pride or declarations of a state of mind, I don't know. Either could be true. If it's either it means you have more work on your hands. Then in a few days/hours when she forgets the conclusion of the argument/discussion--it's groundhog day again. So it's a little bit moot. 

Well I don't want to over-sympathise, but not everyone is able to marry for love. Marrying not for love may actually be a very big part of what many people would consider a healthy marriage, on a given day. I think it's telling that many married couples keep stressing the "remove the 'love' then see" idea.

What you said wouldn't throw out DSM et al per se. I'd consider that it's actually consistent and maybe verifying. BPD origins are thought to be some combination of nature and nurture. BPD traits trigger in close relationships and even more with trauma, which includes adult relationships and adult trauma. In all, what you're saying seems to make sense with what's out there.

I would then be cautious about what's BPD, what's a "trait", and what's simply difficult behaviours between all three women. Then if I wanted to dig, I'd consider what role their spouses are playing (with due respect to everyone).

[woundedPhoenix]

Not to throw out completely the work of DSM et al  , perhaps the BPD gets a boost with adult romantic trauma. Of the 3 women (above) all had significant adult r/s trauma.

Just my two (euro) cents.

My take on this is that BPD is both a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of experiencing new traumas and a disease that fights feverishly against any recovery from existing trauma through all kinds of avoidance strategies.

If i look at my ex, she in the past either choose men that would re-enact her childhood issues, or she choose better partners where her BPD would create such havoc that it would eventually cause new traumas.

And all the while, she keeps running from really processing anything, building up more and more pain inside. She is in therapy for 4 years, and in all honesty it just has gotten worse, not better.

[earlgrey]

My take on this is that BPD is both a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of experiencing new traumas and a disease that fights feverishly against any recovery from existing trauma through all kinds of avoidance strategies.

I'd agree with this. Much of what was happening with us was a defence against being hurt again.

W. had been hurt by a previous r/s and didn't want to be hurt agin. I understand.

But the defense used (keeping me at arms length) ensures there  is a pretty good chance of (disaster) happening again.

I have not been able to get anywhere close enough (trust issues?) to bring about any kind of change in perception.

[fromheeltoheal]

’ I never really loved you anyway’ (one D and 1 marriage later).’ I loved ‘Bill’ (her ex) and you were always kind of glass half full at best.’

Is this some kind of ‘pride’ talking, or the honest declarations of a child-like mind?

Standard borderline would be divorce means abandonment, the worst thing that can happen, so "I never really loved you anyway" means "it's not a big deal we're getting divorced, it didn't matter that much anyway."  A reframing of events to feel better about the abandonment by downplaying the marriage.

I know you're still deep in it EG, and how does it feel to be compared negatively to another man?  Best to avoid stuff like that on the way to our own personal bliss yes?

[steelwork]

Is this some kind of ‘pride’ talking, or the honest declarations of a child-like mind?

Either way, it's a horribly cruel thing to say to another human being.

[earlgrey]

Here's the good news.

I have been so slow and methodical ploughing my way through this r/s that this news today (never loved you anyhow) registered simply as interesting.

My emotions were really under stress test Y1 of marriage back in 2011.

Then I would have been in big trouble, today it is like finding a clue (possibly) to unravelling the human condition.

I'm cool, not a trigger in sight. 

[steelwork]

That's good, Earl Grey. I'm glad you aren't upset by it.

This is a rich topic: how romantic traumas in our past might cause us to keep people at arm's length. I think you're right that this falls under the category of "the human condition," just as so many of the classic BPD-related behaviors do. (Splitting, projection, etc.) I guess attaching clinical significance to any of those things is a matter of looking at the whole individual, over time, under stress, etc.

You could parse it as evidence that the behavior you saw as a BPD trait expressing itself was nothing more than a reaction to an earlier romantic disappointment. I'd say that, whatever is "wrong" with her, healthy, emotionally mature people don't say such unkind things. It's really beyond the pale, if you ask me.

[fromheeltoheal]

I'm cool, not a trigger in sight. 

Yes, that is cool, you've become desensitized to cope, and cope you did.  Now, as you detach, you have the opportunity to become sensitive again, a good thing, not a good idea when enmeshed with a borderline, but a good thing in general.  I found that my most extreme emotional reactions happened after the relationship ended, as I eased into my body and emotions again, intense for a while, but welcome and growth-inducing.

[DazedD40]

I was told that she no longer loves me by txt which was thoughtful of her.

Prior to that, when she asked me to collect her ring she left at mine she launched in to tell me that the ring was a present from her daughters dad and that she had worn it throughout our relationship showing what little I really meant to her.

I still have said ring and to be honest I'm not sure what to do with it.

[Hopefulgirl]

What a horrible thing to say to someone, BPD or not.
I was told by my BPD guy that he never loved me, and never would. Ever. Got that in writing week after being replaced.
Different situation, marriage wasnt involved. You are a strong person to handle that EarlGrey.

I think in my case it was just a part of letting me know that he didnt have to have accountability for my anguish of being dropped on my head. Like "you should have known I didnt love you".

What makes it even more awful is that they really never seem to understand what a terrible thing it is to lay that in someones lap.
Brought it up to him much later in a friend stage with him and he said "I told you that because *the replacement* said that i should, because she thought it would help you to get over me better".  Huh?  OH REALLY?

[Leonis]

My ex pulled the whole that she didn't really wanted to be with me rhetoric with me throughout the breakup.

I personally think it's their defense mechanism to lie to themselves that it wasn't such a big deal. My ex told me how she didn't want to rekindle the relationship last year and decided that she came back because I was pushy about it. Well, it's only half true. I really wanted her to try again with me after knowing some of her traumatic past, but she made the ultimate decision to come back by driving across to a different city, which I used to live.

Even during the recent breakup, she pulled out the guy before me and went on about how he fitted everything she wanted except that he had some apparent PTSD issues. A slap in the face for sure.

The most recent conversations now consist of her saying how I never loved her and never cared about her. Oh yeah, she's apparently proud to be my "evil" ex girlfriend now. She just wants to see me suffer... .in her texts.