Legally keeping the house and kid (for now at least)

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My H and I have been separated for a month now. He is voluntarily not living at home and has only inquired about visiting our 16D a couple times so far, with one successful visit accomplished (after he cancelled the first one scheduled). He keeps threatening to move back home. I saw an attorney for an initial consultation on making our current arrangement enforceable by law - I have the house and the kid. She wrote up an agreement as part of a settlement agreement that is "in process." It only includes that I have exclusive use of the house and sole legal and physical custody with mutual agreement to non-overnight visits.

H is self-employed but doesn't make much from it. He was also working PT but just quit that. I'm currently paying all his bills and he's on my health insurance. Trying to decide whether to put that in the agreement too. (List the bills I'm paying for him.)

It's a delicate balance - assertive vs. aggressive, escalating vs. avoiding conflict. Any advice of those in similar situations would be appreciated.

[uniquename]

My H and I have been separated for a month now. He is voluntarily not living at home and has only inquired about visiting our 16D a couple times so far, with one successful visit accomplished (after he cancelled the first one scheduled). He keeps threatening to move back home. I saw an attorney for an initial consultation on making our current arrangement enforceable by law - I have the house and the kid. She wrote up an agreement as part of a settlement agreement that is "in process." It only includes that I have exclusive use of the house and sole legal and physical custody with mutual agreement to non-overnight visits.

H is self-employed but doesn't make much from it. He was also working PT but just quit that. I'm currently paying all his bills and he's on my health insurance. Trying to decide whether to put that in the agreement too. (List the bills I'm paying for him.)

It's a delicate balance - assertive vs. aggressive, escalating vs. avoiding conflict. Any advice of those in similar situations would be appreciated.

[ForeverDad]

What is the "mutual agreement to non-overnight visits"?  You're referring to visits with your daughter, not visits to the house, right?  If the house is to be in your 'possession' then he needs to give advance notice of a visit with you having control over the details.  Yes, he needs to get his personal items, but that shouldn't morph into waltzing though the house any time he wishes.

If you list the bills you're currently paying for him, would that obligate you to continue paying them?  Probably best to put a time limit on that.  Courts are willing to let existing status to continue.  Do you want the court inclined to think your stbEx needs spousal support or alimony?  Do you want to foster a perception that you should be 'obligated' to support him?  It's one thing to be nice, it's quite another to be forced to be nice.  In other words, minimize your risks and exposures to obligations.

Are any of the bills you're paying ones for jointly owned items?  For example, are you co-owners on the title to any vehicles?  You need strategies to unwind those complications.  Also, probably best to hold back on some things as leverage to get compliance on the other things he has to correct or complete.  If need be, put some of the money that might go to him for marital equity into escrow, to be released only after he has cleared away the last of the remaining issues.  For example, if you owe him $10,000 marital equity from the house and he has to sign over a quit claim deed releasing his joint ownership, then don't you dare gift him the money until he signs that quit claim deed.  A court may order him to do that but family courts are notorious for not enforcing their orders.

As for medical insurance, I believe courts won't allow you to remove someone from your insurance during the divorce process.  However, once the divorce is final you have to notify your work or the insurance provider and they will give the other person a month or two to use COBRA or find medical insurance elsewhere.

When I notified my auto insurance that my stbEx was living elsewhere, it was mid-divorce, they said if the vehicle is 'garaged' elsewhere then that person needs separate auto insurance.  The company contacted her and handled it.

[uniquename]

Thanks for the reply and advice. This is all new to me.

Yes, the non-overnight visits are with our daughter, by arrangement between the 3 of us.

I talked to the attorney too and agreed with you and her to leave off anything about paying for stuff for now (besides for the house).

I've gotten the advice to undo joint stuff. I'm not positive we're headed for divorce yet. We are just separated for now. Any tips on strategies for that? So far he hasn't gone crazy with anything financially. I'm taking a wait and see approach but have a separate checking ready to go and applied for a new credit card too just in case.

You were also right we don't need to mention the health insurance.

I'm planning to send him an email about it tomorrow (well, I guess it is tomorrow but more during waking hours). Wish me luck!

[ForeverDad]

I recall some posts a while back that mentioned two purposes for separation.  One would be therapeutic separation with a goal to reunification.  There would be marriage counseling and even individual counseling.  Of course, if it didn't work then the spouses wouldn't get back together since it would just be recycling back to the way things were.

The other purpose would be to let both spouses/parents start to lead increasingly separate lives with so they adjust into a less abrupt transition into divorce.

Since I gather that he's not really making an effort to work on himself and you're setting up boundaries with legal aspects, you're expecting it to end in divorce, right?

[uniquename]

He's working on himself as far as depression/anxiety but in denial of any responsibility for issues with our relationship. He's undiagnosed but has many traits of BPD of which he seems unaware.
He didn't take the agreement well and made lots of irrational, illogical statements. (We're done, I'm coming home to work on the marriage, you crossed a line we can't move back from, don't contact me, meet me face-to-face.)
I'm not sure what you mean by setting boundaries with legal aspects, but if that's legally letting us live in the house while he retains rights to it, yes. I think we might end up divorced but I'm still holding out hope. He was never this bad before, but we've never separated before. I do have the boundary that I won't be living with him while he's this unstable. Unfortunately it may be a catch 22, but I can't be the one to fix him this time. He has to do it. In other words, I'll be ok if it ends in divorce. I hope he will be but so far he's not showing clear signs of that.

[uniquename]

His threatening to come home became reality earlier this month. He came to our house with deputies close to 11pm and demanded to stay for a few days. I told them my 16D, the dogs, and I would be leaving, I wasn't giving him the key, and the alarm would be set and to please tell him that. After we left, he broke the back door down (legal, he's a co-owner) and texted me he was destroying expensive items throughout the house (not legal apparently). Turns out he wasn't and when the cops came again he decided to leave. I got a preliminary protective order a week ago Monday and the hearing to extend it up to 2 years is Monday.

In the meantime, I saw today he changed his address with the post office. (Yay!) And then I saw he drained the joint checking account. (Boo!) I guess it's reasonable protecting himself? Fortunately my lawyer and T had already told me to open a separate account and deposit my money there. I only had been putting about $1000/month in the joint checking now. But yeah, now I don't know if I should stop that. I guess I can wait til the protective order hearing to deal with the next step. I wish it was all over.

[ForeverDad]

Once he moved out, then you can rightly view yourself as having possession of the house.  How effective that stance is on a legal basis when a legal separation or divorce process hasn't been started is an issue for the lawyer to advise.  Of course, as long as you have a protective order then you definitely have possession.  His access for the duration would likely be limited to getting his personal items and you can/should require an officer of the court (police or deputy) be present to ensure no conflict arises.

Good that you're depositing your paychecks into a personal account!

Technically, a joint account belongs to both parties and so you can quite rightly take out half.  Have you already done that?  If so, then it's okay that he took out the remainder as his half.  But if you were continuing to use it to pay the marital bills, then that's not right but maybe the only consequences might be that later in the financial settlements he will be dinged for taking too much.  Maybe, but don't count on it.

Definitely stop putting money into the joint account.  What if you had checks pending and he caused them to bounce?  Do document your expenses for marital expenses such as mortgage, utilities, etc.  Listen to your lawyer!  Some things that seem minor to you could have legal ramifications that could weaken some of your claims later in the likely divorce.

Though neither of you may have filed for divorce yet, the 'trust' is gone, it would be virtually impossible to heal that breach unless he applies himself diligently to effective therapy and makes real and solid progress.  Understand that well.  Beware of feeling sorry for him or hiding his misbehaviors.  That can be self-sabotaging and undo some of the boundaries you've been able to establish so far.

Don't feel timid or sorry for him when you return to court to get the protection you need.  In many courts being 'fearful' is enough especially if you have some documentation of poor behaviors.  You are not being mean, you are protecting yourself and your children from conflict and who knows what else.  Escalation is not impossible.  The reality is that he did this to himself, he owns it.  After all, he's an adult, he ought to face his consequences.  Court may not make him own all of it but it will very likely set some limits in the protection order.  To repeat... .Beware of feeling sorry for him or hiding his misbehaviors.  That can be self-sabotaging and undo some of the boundaries you've been able to establish so far.

An added thought... .There are times you may feel sorry for him or feel pressured by him and may feel inclined to ignore the protections the court gives you or your other newfound boundaries.  Beware.  Being reasonable or making exceptions can (1) weaken your protective order and/or (2) encourage him to perceive them as weakness and prompt him to push your boundaries even more.

[uniquename]

Today's the day for the hearing to extend the protective order. My lawyer said over the phone Friday she'd call me this weekend to finalize everything. Nope. I texted and sent her email. No answer. Texted one question this morning of what to wear - she answered that. Wtf? Not very comforting. Maybe she wants me upset. Lol.
Anyway already panicking. Took the dogs somewhere to stay. Packing a bag. Told 16D to pack a bag and get out by the time of the hearing. So alarm on, no key, us all elsewhere if we lose. If we win, head home and unpack. Deal with the rest later.
Oh yeah, and I dinged my daughter's car last night coming down driveway. So mad at myself. Accept the things I cannot change... .

[ForeverDad]

Going to court is your lawyer's job, not that much is personally stressful or worrying to him/her.  Not so for you, it's your life and future, your children's life and future.  So naturally you're on edge.  To some extent, that's good, you will be less likely to accept a weak performance by your lawyer, you'll know precisely when lawyer may be inclined to go along with what are typical actions but you detect as poor solutions and terms.  Or else the lawyer will explain to you why the terms are not as bad or as impractical as they may seem.

The lawyer is to handle the legal aspects but you're also to ride herd on him/her since it's your life and you're the expert on stbEx's past behavior patterns.  (The past is a good predictor of the future.)  You'll know which issues are more critical to address than others.  If at all possible you need to anticipate the holes and loopholes that stbEx may use to weaken any order and make sure the lawyer is aware to close them to the extent possible.

[uniquename]

So, his lawyer requested a continuance. New hearing date is 9/9 and the order is automatically extended until then. It was exhausting just going through the process without testifying! Sucks I'm going to have this to "look forward to" another couple weeks. Good news is the order is extended. As long as he remains compliant, a couple more weeks of uneventful life hopefully!

[ForeverDad]

Delays in the form of continuances are common.  Usually the one with a favorable order is the one requesting so that the favored status lasts longer.  Well, the longer with the status quo - and it is working - the harder it will be to change it by much.

Judges typically grant continuances but after the first couple the judges start getting peeved at the delays.  They have busy dockets, they want the case to move along eventually.