Discussion about Formflier's way forward

[formflier]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=299300.60;topicseen

This thread sort of grows out of the thread above.

My goal here is not to argue with people... but to rigorously challenge my assumptions and reasoning. 

Listen... .I know that sometimes it appears I'm not listening or "getting it".  Sometimes I have to read these things several times, think about things.

When I find something I did that doesn't match... .I have to go backwards from there to see where that came from.

Keep the other thread going as well... .

FF

[formflier]

So... .many have expressed concern for my kids and me.  But there is a big concern about the damage being done to my kids.

I agree that it would be better if they could have one stable household for 50% of the time... .and then live in the current state of crazy the other 50%.

Certainly living in calm for 100% is even better.

My sister in law is much worse than my wife with her symptoms of BPD.  Even though there was 50% custody... .brother in law rarely actually got that much.  He tried to minimize conflict.  She tried to maximize it.  Many times back in court.

It's not "just" my wife's behavior that would concern me.  During divorce in her family the entire group "rallies" around the "victim" of divorce to "punish" the offender. 

My brother in law filed for divorce after an affair.  Sister in law denied it up until a lab report was produced with semen that was not his... .that was in her underwear. 

Without batting an eye the family switched to "how could he violate her privacy"... .instead of focusing on the "sin" of the affair.  She is now married to the "affair guy" (her third marriage).  And yes... .the few times I have been around him she is quite open about chewing his a$$ whenever she feels like it. 

My point is that chances of actual 50/50 are low.  Even if I got it there would be stable 50 but the instability of the other 50 would go up. (IMO)

About zero chance of me getting 100%.

I do want to have good discussion of options.

FF

[HopefulDad]

Not quite sure what you mean by your BIL having 50% custody, but rarely actually got that much.  Seems like some key details are missing.  Once you have a court order showing 50%, you absolutely will have 50%.  You shouldn't worry too much about needing to enforce this nor what your BIL went through if he had less in actuality.

Yes, you have no control over what goes on when the kids are with your wife and her family.  Parental alienation?  Be ready for it.  Your wife transferring her wrath from you onto your children because you are no longer there to be her whipping boy?  You betcha.  So the potential for the instability amping up when with the kids are with her is spot on.

But here's the thing: Do NOT undersell the power of giving your kids stability 50% of the time.  Give your kids that stark contrast so they can see themselves what's healthy vs. unhealthy.  :)on't underestimate the example you would be setting to your kids about ":)o not let someone who supposedly loves you treat you like dirt and that you should walk away from people who do."  :)on't sell short that you can parent your way and not worry about you and your wife undermining each other or having a power struggle with her in front of the kids on how to parent.  You will likely often stay up late talking to your kids who can't sleep because they need to talk about what's going on at mom's house.  Be there for them.  Listen closely.  Empathize.  They will learn quickly that at least one of their parents is hearing them.  Truly hearing them.

Your wife is caught in a generational cycle of dysfunction.  Your kids could end up there as well.  You need to be the one to end that cycle.  You just may need to do it on your own instead of as a married partner.

P.S. I noticed that my ex has stepped up her game in a positive way with the kids this past summer.  I think she might feel threatened by the good times with me they would relay to her, but no matter what her motivations are, the kids had a decent summer with her so that's all I really care about.  Maybe your wife might improve in some areas in a similar manner.

Edit: P.P.S. And I agree that you will not get 100% custody.  The court system doesn't look at BPD like we do.  And honestly, your wife is highly functioning enough as a parent where the court won't come close to finding anything against her like systemic emotional abuse.  You should target 50% and only more if you can document clear-cut signs of abuse, emotional or physical.

[teapay]

FF,

Being in similar circumstances, I sympathize with you.  What would two separate house-holds for eight kids look like?  How can it be financially sustained in your current position?  Isn’t one hold-house of eight tough enough to sustain as it is, especially factoring childcare?  Kind of hard to think of solutions for.

I don’t see you at the leaving point at this point, nor would I recommend it at this point.   

These could be things to consider whether you stay or leave.  They may have crossed your mind.  By no means easy, but nothing ever is.
Separating her from her family is probably a good idea.  The proximity probably isn’t healthy for her, is probably aggravating her, and probably further decreases your leverage in a settlement.

Separating her that church is probably a good idea too.  It seems like an outside party that could be played and they could be hostile to you.  She may blow it up herself, though.  Although counter intuitive, backing away from Church in general might help.  Christianity/Bible/Church scrambles my W’s brain and the relationship.  Backing away has actual helped.   Again, seems aggravating for your W.
 
You continue your job search.  If you bag something that is suitable it could have much benefit for you and the relationship.  It seems like a big issue would go away.  It would also give you much more leverage.  The more distance from your wife’s family probably the better too.    Since you lease from your Dad, extricating yourself will be much easier and probably won’t involve your W as much.  You said your state fully funds college for your kids for disable vets.  Does going back to work jeopardize that?  Moving might.  Is that important?

You’ve mentioned PTSD before.    Is it connected to your disability or is it separate?  Is it impacting your relationship significantly.  If neither, do what you can to lose that moniker?  From one male vet to other, that moniker is not your friend and makes a nice cuddle against you.

Lastly, there has been lots of chatter about kids.  When you talk to your kids about mom and dad, and about you and them, what do they tell you?  Any useful guidance from them?

[Cat Familiar]

It seems everything got way worse when you moved close to her family. And the way you characterize that church seems like it's not a healthy influence either.

If their approach is diametrically opposed to your preferred way of worship, why expose yourself and your children to it? Why not find a church that's a better fit for your beliefs and attitudes and let the kids decide which one they want to attend? It's not seeming like you placating your wife on this score is having much of a positive effect.

My parents checked out a number of churches when I was a child and some of them were really scary for me as a young child, while others felt wholesome and welcoming. The impact that a vengeful church can have on a child is not something that should be minimized.

[formflier]

Not quite sure what you mean by your BIL having 50% custody, but rarely actually got that much.  Seems like some key details are missing.  Once you have a court order showing 50%, you absolutely will have 50%.  

Not really... .

If you are willing to enforce it... .you might get it.

But... .what happens when you are about to go to mediation... .or court... .and the ex wife pushes kids to act out... .and gets the kids counselor on her side that "stability" is better than switching households... .because one kid is "suicidal" or "homicidal"... .depending on how you look at a kid stabbing pictures of his Dad.  

All while the mom is egging things on.  Punishment of spouse is more important than healthy kids.

If money is basically unlimited and you are willing to go to court and enforce everything... .then yes... actually getting 50% is possible.

Correct... .there are lots more details missing.

FF

[HopefulDad]

Not quite sure what you mean by your BIL having 50% custody, but rarely actually got that much.  Seems like some key details are missing.  Once you have a court order showing 50%, you absolutely will have 50%.  

Not really... .

If you are willing to enforce it... .you might get it.

But... .what happens when you are about to go to mediation... .or court... .and the ex wife pushes kids to act out... .and gets the kids counselor on her side that "stability" is better than switching households... .because one kid is "suicidal" or "homicidal"... .depending on how you look at a kid stabbing pictures of his Dad.  

All while the mom is egging things on.  Punishment of spouse is more important than healthy kids.

If money is basically unlimited and you are willing to go to court and enforce everything... .then yes... actually getting 50% is possible.

FF

I'm not quite sure we're comparing apples to apples here.  If you have a court order showing 50/50, there is nothing to get.  You got it.  The words I see you use here, particularly the bolded, sound more like the roadblocks on the way to a 50/50 court order.

Now if you want to discuss how to go about getting 50% custody and what roadblocks to expect, that's a different question.
 

[Verbena]

Everything Hopeful Dad said... .couldn't agree more.

FF, I believe you were the one months ago who told me not to base my decisions for my marriage on fear of what COULD happen.  You already know what IS happening to your kids because of their exposure to your wife.  It's up to you as the healthy parent to do whatever is necessary to stand up for your children. 

 

[empath]

If you decide to stay for the sake of the children, you need to be the 'stable' parent who provides stability for the children. I know it is difficult to decide what is best for the kids. I had to look at that myself - with an attorney who gave guidance. I think stability is also important for your health.

I think in your case, it would depend on the type of PTSD and the trauma that started it. Sometimes, people who are in marriages that are chaotic can develop it as well - and the marriage can exacerbate the symptoms of an outside event. How well are your symptoms managed? (I've had PTSD -as well as some training, so I'm fairly familiar with it).

[Fian]

I have been slow to post on this, as there were so many responses, and I wanted to read through all of them before posting.  I think I am caught up now, and wanted to share my 2 cents.

About the money for church dinner situation.

My personal view of marriage is that when you enter into a marriage contract, it is not just with your spouse, it is also with God.  So long as God upholds his part of the bargain, I hold up mine.  (This isn't saying there is never a reason for divorce, just a general principle).  So with that in mind, one of my responsibilities in marriage is to provide for my wife (easy concept since she is stay at home).  I provide for her, regardless of how she treats me.  On the other hand, as the stay at home wife, she does my clothing whether I am deserving of it in her eyes.  So for me, it is a big no-no to withhold money because she is not treating me right.

I know you may not view the above the same way, but let me change the situation.  If she needed medical care and was rude to you.  Would you take her to the hospital regardless of how she was treating you?  Or would you set terms on how she would have to treat you before you took her to the hospital?  That isn't to say that hospital care and money are the same thing, but that we all have items in the "give without restrictions" column.

In regards to separation, I think many in this forum are too quick to sing the praises of divorce.  I am definitely of the opinion that divorce is an option of last resort, and even then it will probably severely damage the children.  I see you bringing some stability to a home with a disordered parent, and that is better than "50%" stability.  Even you leaving the supper resulted in positive changes in your wife's behavior.  Comparing that to doormat fathers that never challenged their wife's behavior, I think you are having a positive impact on your wife's behavior which in turn has a positive impact on your children.

[Notwendy]

I think there are pros and cons to divorce and the decision is multifactorial. I think people also each have our deal breakers, such as physical abuse, criminal activity, infidelity are examples. I know several couples who broke up over infidelity, and also a few couples who managed to salvage their marriage after infidelity, which I think is a phenomenal task.

When children are involved, divorce doesn't end the relationship between the parents. It may change the relationship but the parents are still in contact with each other when it comes to the children. A high conflict relationship is likely to remain that way, in marriage, during divorce, and after. So any relationship skills gained while married are likely to benefit the children regardless of the outcome. Being "undecided" is still an opportunity to work on ourselves because of these benefits.

One aspect of divorce that I have observed bothered me. Once a couple is split and there is shared custody - there is no guarantee that the child will only be with their parent. A single parent is free to date others. If that parent is dysfunctional, then he or she is prone to have another dysfunctional relationship. This means the non as well!. If we were prone to attracting and being attracted someone with whom we have a dysfunctional relationship with, and so is our partners- then the kids could be split 50-50 with more of the same.

This is the other thing I observed. Some of my friends were married to successful men who were magnets for women and although they are married, would have no trouble finding women to date if they were not. The family pattern went like this. Successful hubby spends most of his time at work, where he works hard, but is also admired. Wife is home doing the tasks that aren't as recognized- kids, housework. Couple has conflicts and splits, with 50-50 custody.

A short while later, Dad is still at work, most of the time. He has 50-50 custody but the person I see at the park, at the supermarket, out with the kids isn't mom or dad, but new wife. It is possible that new wife is really a wonderful person, but she isn't mom. The result of the split is that mom's contact is split in half and the kids are handed to another woman.

I know that I would not be happy seeing my H with another woman, but my kids- sorry, no way.

We could reverse the genders for fathers. With 50-50 custody, the kids may not just be with mom, but with the new man as well.

In cases of abuse, or criminal activity, in divorce there would be a case for the abusive parent to not have custody, or to have supervised visitation. But in other cases, they are with the disordered parent, and possibly their partner too.

[formflier]

 If you have a court order showing 50/50, there is nothing to get.  You got it.
  

As I have sat on sidelines of a high conflict divorce.

My wife's sister.

"Getting the court order" is about half of the battle.  My wife's family doesn't respect authority... they get "confused" easily.

Family courts are not used to "hammering" the offending party the first time they com back to court.  It will take several trips back to "prove" that they need to be "hammered".

Then... .take parental alienation into affect... .then take a counselor that is only looking out for interests of the child and you can quickly make a mom that is rushing their kids to this therapy and that therapy look like she is "for" the child.

If the dad is saying "slow down" let's be wise here... .he can easily be painted as not wanting "the best" for his kid.

It takes several iterations of "therapist shopping" for the court to see that it is a sham, vice legitimate effort.


Basically... .any effort by a therapist to look at "whole picture" gets them painted black.  A "better" therapist is quickly found... .rinse... repeat... .

I will say that my BIL had limited resources and was a bit conflict avoidant.

I have a few more resources and... .anyone here believe I am shy about conflict? 

Still... .that type of stuff in punishing on children and, for the moment, I am picking the lesser of two evils.  


FF

[HopefulDad]

FF, I'm sure you observed a ####show through your wife's sister and BIL.  If you read the divorce and co-parenting boards, you will also see similar garbage so it's indeed an uphill battle for sure.  But you will also read other stories on how to deal with the nonsense, perhaps in a better way than your BIL did.

In any case, you have the best pulse on your situation.  Just try to consider several aspects of "doing best for your kids".  While stability is indeed huge, also think about other aspects such as "can I model a healthy marriage", "am I teaching my kids to choose a partner wisely", "can I model healthy self-respect" and any mixed messages a child's mind may struggle with while you're living with your wife.  You're not just protecting them to the best of your ability now, but you are also teaching them life lessons for when they are adults.  They will rewind their childhoods in their minds as adults and view you differently than they do now.  Be their inspiration, not their cautionary tale.