Meeting her - Please help

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Thanks so much for all of your replies - you all have great advice/insight... .can't imagine where I'd be without it. I only have a minute before class right now, so I'm just going to reply to a couple questions and write more later.

Seven hours? What did you talk about? She sounds like she is lonely and needs soothing.  If the other girl she "was" with is so terrible why do they still hang out?

We mainly just caught up, talked about what we've been doing and frivolous things like that. We did talk about some more serious things as well, obviously. I hadn't planned on doing that, but she brought up being friends and I kind of hesitated and explained my concern (that she's detached quicker and I will end up more hurt). I think that's when she brought up the other girl. She had been telling me earlier that she feels like people take her for granted/don't appreciate her. She believes that she puts forth more effort than other people do. She then indicated that this girl is one of the people who falls into that category. So honestly I'm not sure why she's hanging out with her still if that's the way she feels. I certainly didn't ask. I think that she's just really trying to pedal forward and move on, so she's making herself do this and trying to pursue something because the prospect of "new" is so appealing to her right now.

I do think she is lonely - she told me that many times she wanted to call me up for a drink or something but that she didn't know how I would receive it. I think I'm still her safety net.

You need to figure that out. What do YOU want?

I really do want her back, but she has expressed the fact that she is moving on and that our relationship is no longer a romantic one. What more can I do aside from hoping that she may change her mind one day?

If you want her back, you need to be the most attractive option.

That means working on yourself; getting happy and confident again.

The attitude you currently have us never going to bring her back.

Sorry to be blunt but sugar coating it won't help you.

[Infern0]

Thanks so much for all of your replies - you all have great advice/insight... .can't imagine where I'd be without it. I only have a minute before class right now, so I'm just going to reply to a couple questions and write more later.

Seven hours? What did you talk about? She sounds like she is lonely and needs soothing.  If the other girl she "was" with is so terrible why do they still hang out?

We mainly just caught up, talked about what we've been doing and frivolous things like that. We did talk about some more serious things as well, obviously. I hadn't planned on doing that, but she brought up being friends and I kind of hesitated and explained my concern (that she's detached quicker and I will end up more hurt). I think that's when she brought up the other girl. She had been telling me earlier that she feels like people take her for granted/don't appreciate her. She believes that she puts forth more effort than other people do. She then indicated that this girl is one of the people who falls into that category. So honestly I'm not sure why she's hanging out with her still if that's the way she feels. I certainly didn't ask. I think that she's just really trying to pedal forward and move on, so she's making herself do this and trying to pursue something because the prospect of "new" is so appealing to her right now.

I do think she is lonely - she told me that many times she wanted to call me up for a drink or something but that she didn't know how I would receive it. I think I'm still her safety net.

You need to figure that out. What do YOU want?

I really do want her back, but she has expressed the fact that she is moving on and that our relationship is no longer a romantic one. What more can I do aside from hoping that she may change her mind one day?

If you want her back, you need to be the most attractive option.

That means working on yourself; getting happy and confident again.

The attitude you currently have us never going to bring her back.

Sorry to be blunt but sugar coating it won't help you.

[JJacks0]

That's okay, I need that... .I don't mind you being blunt. Just appreciate the advice.

But what exactly do you mean by my current attitude? You mean because she knows that I'm not seeing anyone else and am saddened that she is? Do you think that comes across too needy? I was hoping that wouldn't come up at all for that very reason... .I really didn't want her to see me looking anything other than happy.

I felt like texting her already today but I don't want to look desperate. Kind of feels like a game, but when she's off loving her new independent lifestyle I don't want to crowd her and seem like I don't have anything else going on.
 

[Infern0]

That's okay, I need that... .I don't mind you being blunt. Just appreciate the advice.

But what exactly do you mean by my current attitude? You mean because she knows that I'm not seeing anyone else and am saddened that she is? Do you think that comes across too needy? I was hoping that wouldn't come up at all for that very reason... .I really didn't want her to see me looking anything other than happy.

I felt like texting her already today but I don't want to look desperate. Kind of feels like a game, but when she's off loving her new independent lifestyle I don't want to crowd her and seem like I don't have anything else going on.
 

Comes across as weak, needy, insecure, desperate.

Not the way to be. The attitude you need is that your doing great and if she wants to come back that's awesome, and if she doesn't your fine with that too.

I've been on and off with my ex to know:

When I'm doing well and I'm happy she wants me back

When I'm not doing well and I'm not happy she tries to friendzone me.

[JJacks0]

Thanks, that makes sense.

I guess my initial thoughts were that if she thought I had completely moved on though, she would just be like okay great, let's both move on and see other people and be friends. I thought she should know that I was still interested, because if I'm not, that would just validate her decision to pursue others. But perhaps I had the wrong outlook.

So in your opinion then, should I take some time before/if I reach out to her again? Or is any time acceptable as long as I have the right attitude?

[Infern0]

Thanks, that makes sense.

I guess my initial thoughts were that if she thought I had completely moved on though, she would just be like okay great, let's both move on and see other people and be friends. I thought she should know that I was still interested, because if I'm not, that would just validate her decision to pursue others. But perhaps I had the wrong outlook.

So in your opinion then, should I take some time before/if I reach out to her again? Or is any time acceptable as long as I have the right attitude?

Take the time and get the right attitude. That might take a while but being in contact in a bad state will just make things worse.

Last time I got mine back I agreed to be "friends" just to smoothe things over and not have negativity then I just went on my own buzz for a while.

Didn't contact her or anything. Just focused on myself, gym, studies etc and getting myself right.

After a while (2-3 months) she wanted to meet up so we went out for food and just me being relaxed and in a great place let the old chemistry come back and it was easy.

I mean I messed up again by putting too much focus on the relationship AGAIN but it got me back in the door.

The key to it is to not be attached to an outcome. Take care of YOU and the rest will fall into place

[sad but wiser]

Hello.  Breaking contact with an ex you want is so hard!  You can get literally addicted to that person, even when you know they are playing with your heart!
  Be careful.  All of us girls know guys want what they can't have.  Some girls use this fact to drive guys crazy.  This push/pull sparks your attraction.  She doesn't sound ready for real love, more like she loves attention.  And she isn't your friend.  That behavior isn't friendly.

[JJacks0]

I was trying to decide today what to do next. As I said, she left all future contact in my hands. But I've started to feel really awkward about that. Although I'm hesitant about being "friends", the unbalanced dynamic regarding contact feels odd. I thought about just telling her that she can contact me if she'd like to get together again... .that she doesn't have to wait for me to do so first.

I worried that that might be surrendering any power I have too easily, but at the same time I can always decline when she suggests we get together. I just don't really like the thought of her waiting if she wants to contact me. I don't have to answer, or follow through. But I don't know, I could be looking at this the wrong way.

Any thoughts?

[Rayban]

I was trying to decide today what to do next. As I said, she left all future contact in my hands. But I've started to feel really awkward about that. Although I'm hesitant about being "friends", the unbalanced dynamic regarding contact feels odd. I thought about just telling her that she can contact me if she'd like to get together again... .that she doesn't have to wait for me to do so first.

I worried that that might be surrendering any power I have too easily, but at the same time I can always decline when she suggests we get together. I just don't really like the thought of her waiting if she wants to contact me. I don't have to answer, or follow through. But I don't know, I could be looking at this the wrong way.

Any thoughts?

If you want her to contact you, just ghost her for a week.  Guaranteed that you will hear from her.  As I mentioned previously she wants you to chase her. That's when she will have all the power over you. Now if you just lay low, she will feel like those 7 hous she spent with you meant nothing to you. She cant handle that.

Now why you want her to contact you is a whole different thing. Don't see many benefits in wanting contact with an ex who already seems to be involved with someone else, and wants you friend zoned?

[JJacks0]

We had 2 cats together, so when we split I got one and she got the other. I brought something small for her to give to our other cat when I saw her on Tuesday.
So I sent her one message since we got together just asking how the cat liked the toy.
She replied, I replied once more, and that was it.

The thing is, she wants to be friends and hang out still. So I know she would be receptive if I invited her somewhere (or at least I assume so, unless she's really messing with me).
But we agreed after last time that I should be the one to initiate since I was hesitant about having a r/s as friends. She said she didn't want to keep asking me to get together in the future if I was uncomfortable with it, so the ball is in my court.

I thought that was fair, but now it makes me feel uncomfortable... .I think if she wants to contact me she should, if she wants to get together she should ask, and I can always decline. So that's really the only reason I wanted to tell her that it's okay for her to do that. And that she doesn't need to wait for me to take the first initiative next time. This all feels like a game - the overanalyzing, waiting, holding out on texting, ignoring, etc. It just stresses me out, I wish we could both just be authentic and if we feel like talking to the other person do it.

Rayban, I see what you're saying about the ghosting. But let's say I make no further contact with her now... .no future texts or attempts to get together. (The only thing I have said so far anyways was about the cat, nothing more). Perhaps that would disappoint her, but why would she contact me if the agreement was for the ball to be in my court now? I don't really think she would because that would be breaking the agreement and she's generally pretty stubborn. She told me that during our 2 month NC period, she wanted to contact me many times but didn't think she should. So she's pretty strong-willed.  I guess I just wanted to attempt to alleviate the mind games a bit, and say okay let's just be on even ground here - no one has more power than the other, we can both contact each other, if I don't want to get together with you I'll just say so and vice versa. 

Does that seem like a decent idea, or do you think I'm just handing over too much power then? The goal was to give us equal leverage, no one has anything over the other. But I do worry that the ball is finally in my court for once, and I'm not taking advantage of that enough. The problem is, I've always been more comfortable with a balance, not this uneven playing field.

[C.Stein]

But I do worry that the ball is finally in my court for once, and I'm not taking advantage of that enough. The problem is, I've always been more comfortable with a balance, not this uneven playing field.

Note the bold.  This suggests it was never even to begin with.  Do what you need to do in order to maintain control over your own well being.  If that means keeping the ball in your court for now then that is OK.

I don't know this woman, or how manipulative she can be, but keep your eyes open here JJ.

[JJacks0]

Thanks C. Stein. I hope I didn't lose control already by texting her about the cat. I was genuinely just curious and not trying to initiate anything else. But I do worry that when she knows she has me, she'll treat me worse. She has already discovered that she can get away with so much... .among that, calling me after 2 months NC and still being received so well. I'm going to hold off now for a while and think about how I want to proceed with this.

Our would-be anniversary is this coming Tuesday, the 18th, so that's causing a lot of feelings as well... .as it will be the first we haven't celebrated together since 2009. 

[Rayban]

She will contact you because her ego won't accept that you spent 7 hours with her and not peep about the encounter since. You are right this is game playing and that's never good. I understand you have an agreement with her, but you also have the ability to change your mind after mulling over your encounter.  

Think about what's best for you. If you're ok with a friendship with a person you still love, and are willing to accept a friendship in the guise of getting to see her once in a while, then by all means stop over thinking and just call her. Just remember she might not share your feelings, and there is no depth to the hurt that could cause when you are with her.

I also don't know this woman, and perhaps she absolutely means well, but if she truly a person suffering with BPD it will never be about you. From what I understand,  she also seems to be with someone else. If you care for her and believe in something more then just friendship with her, then the ball is in her court. Your involvement at this point with another person involved has all the makings of a recipe for disaster.

That's why I suggest let her come to you. Don't spend your time waiting on her. If she does, then Cleary state what you want if its more then a friendship.  In the mean time go on living your life.

[C.Stein]

But I do worry that when she knows she has me, she'll treat me worse. She has already discovered that she can get away with so much... .among that, calling me after 2 months NC and still being received so well. I'm going to hold off now for a while and think about how I want to proceed with this.

I think it is good that you are playing it "close to the vest" right now.  Protecting yourself is paramount.  

The problem I have with manipulation and control is intent.  

Some people knowingly and actively do it.  They know if they say or do something ... .it will produce a desirable response.  The conscious intent here is to directly manipulate and control the other person.  They know exactly what they are doing.

Some people do it subconsciously, a learned behavior over time.  The things said or done are more or less habitual and the reasons are varied.  There is no conscious intent to manipulate and control the other person.  They simply aren't aware that is what they are doing.

Which one of these "camps" would you say your ex falls into the majority of the time?  

I know this is a hard question because it goes a lot deeper than it appears to.  It is a question I have struggled with myself as it applies to my ex.

[JJacks0]

You're right, that is a tough question. But I don't believe she has any malicious intent at all.

I really think that this is learned behavior... .she's gotten used to coping in certain ways since she was very young, and has seen the correlation between certain actions and the responses she receives.

She's an incredibly sweet, loving and caring person when she's not triggered. Unlike some stories I've seen, she has taken responsibility for the things she's put me through, and I know she felt awful about it. That could make for a great outcome, however she still hasn't followed through with the therapy, etc. to really turn things around. What she'll do instead is put forth GREAT effort right after something major, like a fit of rage, breaking things, mania, etc. And at times I've thought she was really going to make a lasting difference. Where she struggles is with upkeep and consistency - once she feels like things are better she stops doing her therapy and the exercises they teach her, and things fall apart once again.

This is a tangent, but I guess my point is that I really don't think that she is intentionally manipulative (at least for the most part).

I have held out on making any more contact with her since the brief texting over our shared pet. But I think I'll have a really tough time not talking to her on our old anniversary. I'm sure that sounds a little crazy since we're no longer together. There's just something so sad about not speaking to her at all on a day that used to mean so much to her. And in a way, I want her to know that I remember what day it is... .even though it isn't relevant in the same way any longer.

[C.Stein]

Unlike some stories I've seen, she has taken responsibility for the things she's put me through, and I know she felt awful about it.

My ex would also take responsibility for most of the stuff she has done, but it wasn't what it appeared on the surface.  Thinking back I have come to realize her apologies lacked sincerity for several reasons.  I don't think she ever felt anything she did wasn't justified.  She always found some way to excuse/justify what she did, even if she could see it was wrong afterwards.  More importantly though, I honestly don't think she ever apologized for the pain she caused me (i.e. the consequences).  I think her apologies were only to appease me so I would "forget" it.  They were issued with selfish intent not with sincere remorse.  That isn't to say she didn't feel bad for the things she did, she probably did, but I think it was less about feeling bad for the pain she caused me and more about the pain she caused herself.

This is important because she never held herself accountable for her actions/behavior/words.  By not doing this, she can never change the hurtful behavior.  The things she does might change, but the underlying thought process that leads her to do these hurtful things is the same.  I didn't see this when I was in the middle of it all, but I see it now and it has been very hard to accept for me.

But I think I'll have a really tough time not talking to her on our old anniversary. I'm sure that sounds a little crazy since we're no longer together. There's just something so sad about not speaking to her at all on a day that used to mean so much to her. And in a way, I want her to know that I remember what day it is... .even though it isn't relevant in the same way any longer.

I know how hard it is when those meaningful events come around.  It is a painful reminder of what was and what could have been.  At some point though we have to stop living in the past.  Regardless of what happens with your ex in the future, the past can never be recaptured.  You are strong and can make it through those tough days.  Believe in yourself.  

[JJacks0]

Those are good points. I guess it is really difficult to know what someone's intentions are. When it comes down to it, she could have just been trying to appease me or felt bad for hurting me because she knew hurting me would ultimately hurt her. I hate considering that option... .the girl I remember was such a sweetheart.

At the same time, she was capable of things that I could never have done to her. I hurt her too, I know, but I *always* felt remorse, and to this day struggle with the guilt leftover from it. Looking back at something she did to me just this past June, she told me the day after that she knew it was wrong, she was sorry, and that it was possibly the meanest thing she had ever done because she KNEW what she was doing and did nothing to stop it. In the past she has blamed it on mania or something else mental health related, but this time she seemed to be saying that she wasn't dysregulated in any way, just didn't really care about me. She told me it worried her that while she was doing it she didn't feel bad at all.

I really hurt her at the end of our relationship because I expressed a desire to put less pressure on our relationship, when she was at a point in life where she wanted to cling to me as tightly as she could.
I sometimes wonder if what she's done to me in the aftermath has been spiteful, or if things really have just come full circle. Because now she is the one who wants to tone down our r/s (by downgrading to friendship entirely) while I am becoming increasingly focused on her.

My intention was not to push her away however; I didn't even want to break up - I just knew it wasn't healthy and wanted it to get there first. I thought that slowly rebuilding, gaining trust again, etc. would just naturally put us back in a better spot. She didn't seem to care about working on the relationship - she just wanted it to exist and force it at any cost, because that was what she needed at that moment. I knew it wouldn't work that way because I didn't even feel like she liked me much while she was asking for our relationship to be my top priority again. I just wanted to have something genuine, while I felt like she just wanted to cut corners. I feel regret often, and wonder what would have happened if I had just given her what she wanted then even though I did not believe it would lead to the best outcome. At least we would still be together most likely. But I think there's a good chance that I would be resentful, she would still not be happy with me, and the relationship would really be no better than it was before, it would just be given more priority, meaning less time for me to focus on school, friends, family, etc.

I actually had hoped that in getting separate places, we could work on ourselves and maybe the space would help us to clear our minds enough so that we could still be together ultimately. I know that for me I have had many realizations while being apart, some that would benefit her greatly (like realizing my role in the r/s). But it's rather evident that the same realizations aren't happening on her end.

When we met on Tuesday, she actually sort of mentioned how she still has some negative feelings toward me for the way I was after her mom passed. She did also say how she knows that she "put me through hell." But went back to how she still had these negative associations with me because of her mother's passing and said how all of the feelings that transpired afterwards blend together and she ends up kind of associating them all with me. She then mentioned how when you look back at things, you have a tendency to remember the bad, which really stood out to me. I have been sitting here for months only remembering the good! I put my little rose-tinted glasses on and painted this girl out to be a saint, excusing all her behavior and recalling all of the wonderful times we had together. She apparently has been doing the opposite.

This post has turned out to be quite the tangent-filled rant, and I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but it's good to get it out. Thanks for taking the time to read these things I think about.

[C.Stein]

Those are good points. I guess it is really difficult to know what someone's intentions are. When it comes down to it, she could have just been trying to appease me or felt bad for hurting me because she knew hurting me would ultimately hurt her. I hate considering that option... .the girl I remember was such a sweetheart.

Understanding intentions can be difficult, especially when someone hides meaning between their words.  The key I have found is trying to remain an objective observer to what is being said/done.  Once you internalize what she is saying/doing you run the risk of only seeing what you want to see or believe, not what is really being said/done.  I know I did this a lot with my ex because I wanted to continue to believe in the illusion I had built around her and anything that challenged that illusion eventually got dismissed. 

I understand why you hate considering this as a possibility because something like this could be seen as disorder or personal character ... .that latter being the one that is the hardest to accept.  Personally I think much of it is disorder driven but the line is fine and I think determining true intent will many times come down to "gut instinct" once you can look at it objectively.  The most important thing to remember is the words are just words.  The following behavior and actions are what really matter and can shed some light on true intent.

Looking back at something she did to me just this past June, she told me the day after that she knew it was wrong, she was sorry, and that it was possibly the meanest thing she had ever done because she KNEW what she was doing and did nothing to stop it. In the past she has blamed it on mania or something else mental health related, but this time she seemed to be saying that she wasn't dysregulated in any way, just didn't really care about me. She told me it worried her that while she was doing it she didn't feel bad at all.

This is exceptionally difficult to come to terms with and also incredibly important to see this for what it is.  My ex did the same thing to me on several occasions, that being knowing doing something that would hurt me and not feeling bad for doing it.  IMO, this is entirely unacceptable behavior towards someone you love and it showed me that she did not care for my well being on fundamental level.  I allowed myself to overlook this for most of my relationship with her, but the damage to my personal self was exceptionally high and I am finally getting a grasp on just how high of a cost that was.

My intention was not to push her away however; I didn't even want to break up - I just knew it wasn't healthy and wanted it to get there first. I thought that slowly rebuilding, gaining trust again, etc. would just naturally put us back in a better spot. She didn't seem to care about working on the relationship - she just wanted it to exist and force it at any cost, because that was what she needed at that moment. I knew it wouldn't work that way because I didn't even feel like she liked me much while she was asking for our relationship to be my top priority again. I just wanted to have something genuine, while I felt like she just wanted to cut corners.

I was in a similar position JJ.  I felt like my ex was in a race to get to a predetermined place with me (marriage & family).  She didn't seem to care at all about building a healthy relationship.  She wanted to win the marathon without running the race.  In her haste to get to the goal line she effectively left me behind.  Like you, what I wanted was a sustainable, stable and healthy relationship but what I wanted didn't seem to matter even if it was an essential requirement for the family she was so desperate for. 

I feel regret often, and wonder what would have happened if I had just given her what she wanted then even though I did not believe it would lead to the best outcome. At least we would still be together most likely. But I think there's a good chance that I would be resentful, she would still not be happy with me, and the relationship would really be no better than it was before, it would just be given more priority, meaning less time for me to focus on school, friends, family, etc.

I feel the same regret at times, even now.  Sometimes I have a hard time reconnecting to how I was feeling during the last 6 months of my relationship.  What I have to keep reminding myself is that if I had allowed her to marginalize and ignore my emotional well being again, nothing would ever change.  I attempted to talk to her about what she had done that essentially destroyed our relationship to no avail.  Then I just gave up, hoping she would find a way to see what she had done, hold herself accountable for it and make a concerted effort to repair what she had broken.  She was never able to do it and continued to pretend like nothing had happened which resulted in me withdrawing more and more from the relationship and did eventually lead to resentment and bitterness.

I actually had hoped that in getting separate places, we could work on ourselves and maybe the space would help us to clear our minds enough so that we could still be together ultimately. I know that for me I have had many realizations while being apart, some that would benefit her greatly (like realizing my role in the r/s). But it's rather evident that the same realizations aren't happening on her end.

This is the inherent problem with relationships with someone who is emotionally immature.  While the realization might occur, the ability to act on it simply isn't there because it requires an emotional maturity they don't posses.

I have been sitting here for months only remembering the good! I put my little rose-tinted glasses on and painted this girl out to be a saint, excusing all her behavior and recalling all of the wonderful times we had together. She apparently has been doing the opposite.

It is important when we look at our relationships with other people we look through an objective lens.  As much as you may want to hold on to the good, the bad is also a part that needs your attention.  This is something I have struggled mightily with because I don't want to accept my ex could treat someone she claimed to love and care for with such callous disregard for my emotional well being. 

Yet I can't deny what she did and as much as I want to only see her for the good within her, she is also the person who profoundly hurt and damaged me.  For myself, it is also important that I understand that I allowed this to happen to me because I did believe in the good within her and I continually convinced myself that the hurtful things she was doing wasn't a true representation of who she really is as a whole.  It was wrong of me to do this.

This post has turned out to be quite the tangent-filled rant, and I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but it's good to get it out. Thanks for taking the time to read these things I think about.

This is all good clarification on how you are feeling now and were feeling during the relationship.  It is very important that you find clarity here and to make sure you aren't wearing those rose-tinted glasses as you move forward.