I love her, but I don't think I can handle it anymore

[formflier]

 

Maybe look at it a different way.  If you want to break up... .YOU take responsibility for it.  Make your decision.  Don't "blame" breakup on her.

Don't blame her for being her.

FF

[Georg]

Yes, it's not constructive to blame anyone. That's not my intention.

While I've read many threads here, I've seen stories both about pwBPD that leaves permanently... .and those other ones, that actually comes back. Those that don't really want to separate. The break-up option 2 and 3 would mean that there is a chance that I get to know that I mean something to her, if she comes back to me.
That would mean that her break-up threats are more a way to push me and manipulate me, but maybe she does not intend to really go all the way. If that is the case, it's easier to handle break-up threats in the future. I can relax a bit more and don't have to fear those threats and spend that much energy on them. Maybe I could even learn to live in a relation like that. Because right now, it's those break-ups that really kills the spirt and consumes enormous amounts of energy, although of course there are other problems as well, like lacking trust, compatibility with my role as father, etc.

The risk with option 2 and 3 is, as Notwendy puts it, that I become the victim, because if she never comes back, I become the victim, and it's not empowering.

So it's a tough choice. One could say... .with option 1, I do what is safest for me. I take initiative. But I don't really give her a chance to show if/how much she cares about me for real.

[Kelli Cornett]

Many of us non's, have codependency issues.
It sounds like you know what the healthiest thing you can do for yourself really is, but it's just really hard fully letting go.

Taking a good hard look at ourselves during this absolutely crazy and painful time helps to 'fix' us, and make healthier relationship choices in the future.

[formflier]

All,

I'm obviously more of a defender of the "staying side".  That is my personal choice.

So... .I'm resistant to hints that "the best" thing... or "the healthiest" thing is to leave a pwBPD. 

In some cases it is and in some cases it isn't.

Perhaps a better way to describe a good decision either way.

Personally

"I stay because I believe I a better chance of influencing stability and healthy growth in the family from "inside" the marriage".  I believe that is a "healthy"... "affirmative" way to make a decision.

I think saying "I stay because she... ."

or "I'm leaving because she... ."

Can tend to lean towards an unhealthy way of decision making.  You are perhaps letting someone else own your decision.

Big picture in life... .especially with pwBPD is to OWN your life... .create a fulfilling life and then invite them along.  If they come... .great.  If they don't... .live your life...

FF

[formflier]

Georg,

You are thinking very deeply about your options... .that is very good!  Light years ahead of the type of thinking that some did when they were "new".

I'm trying to influence your thinking... .not squash it.  Please keep it up.

You are on the right track.

FF

[Kelli Cornett]

"Now, I feel that my energy is not enough anymore. I cannot both be a good father, feel harmony in my work and handle a relation with someone that matches many of the BPD criteria, for example, breaking up regularly, threatening me using emotional abuse of my love for her, and that does not want to get diagnosed or treated. These weekly break-ups that constantly put me into a defending position, always to be creative to find a solution, and going to down my knees to beg for forgiveness and do whatever rituals needed for improvement (that sometimes involve blood sacrifice and whatever). It drains a lot of energy. And it kind of destroys at least one day, and sometimes, several days ahead."

Do these comments sound like they're coming from someone who currently "owns their life", or someone whose life has become a series of reactions and hurt/pain from their BPD partner?

[Georg]

During the short time I've been here, I have learned some new things and realized my own role/responsiblity in my current life situation. One could say part of me knew it already, but people here has strengthened that knowledge and the information I have got is very important.

I'm aware that this forum does not have as a mission to tell me to stay or leave. But I also think it's very "healthy" for this forum that people have different advice and opinions, because we all have experienced unique situations. Therefore, it makes sense that there are both defenders of "staying" and those who encourage me to leave... .and those who try to be as neutral as possible. I appreciate all sides, because they all give different angles. So it's all very helpful.

I think I know enough now to maybe try a couple of new tools, and then, if nothing improves, to take a good decision about things pretty soon. Then of course, maybe something radical happens even before that. It often tends to be the case... .but I'm getting used to it... .;-)

Thank you, everyone, for all support so far, and for all different opinions and advice.

By the way... .IMHO: if no one on this forum was ever allowed to voice anything in the style of:
1. "I think the best for you is to leave, because... ."  ... .or ... .
2. "You haven't tried this and this and this tool yet... .I think you should stay a bit longer and try this first"... .
... .then I think this forum would not be as helpful. I really appreciate people's different opinions!

Georg

[Notwendy]

Everyone's choices are different. A person who is married with children has to consider that.  This is a 6 month dating relationship, no marriage, no children.

The choices and consequences, as well as the level of commitment, is different.

Still the choice is up to Georg.

Regardless of the choice, I think it is important for him to understand his reasons for being in this relationship and what makes him vulnerable to relationships like this. The effort to work on oneself is helpful in or out of a relationship.

[Notwendy]

Georg- my reasons for not telling someone what to do about their relationships may be in agreement with this board, but I arrived at this conclusion independently from a number of experiences.

One was reading about relationships and the influence of our own FOO ( family of origin) on our choices of romantic partners and the "chemistry" we have with people.

We tend to match with people who match us emotionally at some level.

If this is the case, and we leave a dysfunctional relationship without gaining some insight or some personal work about our side of the situation- then we risk creating a similar dysfunction in subsequent relationships.

Does this mean we are stuck, or doomed, so why bother? No, we are capable of personal growth- in or out of a relationship.

Some of us have poor boundaries and other behaviors that make us prone to relationships with people who don't respect our boundaries.

Someone else might have walked away from your GF the first time she became verbally abusive. You didn't. You remain somehow in this pattern with her. It both works for you in some ways ( maybe the thrill, excitement, passion ) and also causes you some emotional pain, but whatever it is- you are in it with her.

I could tell you to stay, or to leave, but that would reflect me- my bias, perhaps tell you what I would do or justify what I did. But that's about me, not you.

If I sided with you against her- made her the bad guy, it would be triangulating. It would make her the reason for the problems. But that wouldn't help you.

If I told you to leave and you did, without really learning how to decide this yourself, then I would not have helped you gain relationship skills and boundaries.

If I told you to stay, then the reason might not come from you. I also can not make an informed decision for you. It makes sense that partners with children, a marriage to dissolve- with the legal fees, or people in longer term relationships might want to try to improve the relationship before breaking it as there would be considerable costs to that decision. Someone without children might lean towards leaving, but in any case, the decision is made with multiple reasons. Then there are boundaries and values. Some relationships tolerate infidelity, some do not.

So, I have concluded that the best support is to encourage you to work though this for yourself, so that you can act with conviction that the decision you make is the best one for you.

[Georg]

Notwendy:
That's a very good comment. I understand your point and I appreciate it VERY much. Even this response (that wasn't even intended to answer any special question from me) gives me food for thought and more valuable insights into my relationship. So thank you very much.

Just wanted to clarify that I'm usually not a person that easily gets "stepped on". I put up some clear boundaries with my ex-wife. We both did. We had very few fights. Some of them, of course, quite big. But they were mostly about putting up the boundaries. When those boundaries were set, it all worked out much better. We had a very harmonic relationship for about 13 years. Then, there were other reasons why that relation stopped working. That's a totally different story that doesn't really belong here. So I'm not just taking any crap from anyone. It has to be someone very special if I'm going to act like I'm doing in this relation. And very special circumstances. I think you're onto something when you mention the words passion and thrill. It's hard to admit... .but yes... .I guess the tension from break-ups and fights brings both those elements... .and those are kind of addictive as well.

[Kelli Cornett]

The addiction component can be very powerful.
Another addiction that can come into play is the addiction to the idealization phase, which in many BPD relationships, comes with a hypersexual phase.

[Georg]

... .Another addiction that can come into play is the addiction to the idealization phase, which in many BPD relationships, comes with a hypersexual phase.

Yes, that's pretty much where we are, still after 6 months, including the properties that you mention.

[Kelli Cornett]

... .Another addiction that can come into play is the addiction to the idealization phase, which in many BPD relationships, comes with a hypersexual phase.

Yes, that's pretty much where we are, still after 6 months, including the properties that you mention.

Been there, more than I care to recall.
And when you go from that extreme idealization and hypersexual phase immediately to total devaluation/discard, it is devastating. You'll do most anything to get that idealization back, and at that point are basically under complete control of your BPD partner and they know it.

It's at this point where I found out first hand, that fixing yourself is absolutely crucial to a non's survival. It can't be about saving the relationship, as it has become too emotionally/psychologically unhealthy and toxic for the non and the pwBPD no longer treats you as anything more than an object with zero empathy for your feelings and emotional well being.

[Georg]

Northface: "You'll do most anything to get that idealization back, and at that point are basically under complete control of your BPD"

Yes... .that's exactly how things have turned out. Repeatedly. And I value your personal experience and thoughts about it.

[Kelli Cornett]

Northface: "You'll do most anything to get that idealization back, and at that point are basically under complete control of your BPD"

Yes... .that's exactly how things have turned out. Repeatedly. And I value your personal experience and thoughts about it.

Any questions you have, please feel free to ask. The past 9 months of my life have been filled with every kind of craziness you could ever imagine, being in a R with a BPDw. It's forced me to look into my own codependency issues to see how I wound up in this situation in the first place, why I stayed, and how I let someone else get so much control of my emotional happiness.

It's a very painful process, but completely necessary to get your life back. No matter how much you read about all the new tactics for dealing with/communicating with your BPD partner better, the reality is that you're never on firm stable ground when you're in an intimate R with a pwBPD.

Devaluation/discard can come at any moment, and it doesn't matter one bit if the two of you were professing your undying love and having acrobatic sex the day before. And if you get recycled, guess what... the same cycle will repeat itself, but the cycles tend to get shorter and more dysfunctional and painful to the non.

[Georg]

I believe the decision to leave is here now. I didn't get the chance to try out any new tools. She got before me - when it comes to hurting me a lot.

The guy who she cheated on me with... .She was in another town over weekend. Where he lives.
So all the weekend, I've been a bit worried over this. And I've told her several times that if she meets him and do some insignificant actitivy together just as friends, I don't want to hear about it. Because it still hurts me. If it has no significance to our relationship, she might as well not tell me about it. (The same way I don't tell here that I'm having a good time playing computer games with my son. Because she gets jealous over it. But it has no significance regarding my love to her. I love her just as much. So there is no reason to make her upset and push it up her face.)

I've told her this clearly several times. And she has violated that principle several times. Even sent pictures of him to me over social media, directly after I said I don't want to hear about him. She knows very well it hurts a lot. Yesterday, she told me she spent some time alone with him. Judging from the activity they did, many hours, maybe a whole day. Sent me some pictures where they had drawn a heart together with some electronic device and she gestured a heart towards the one holding the camera. This guy. I might add that this was exactly the pattern this summer before they got to the point where they had sex. She spent lots of time with this guy alone. Sent me pictures of what they were doing together. At the same time, telling me there is nothing to worry about. But most often, she used phrases like "You don't have to worry. He doesn't seem to like me." (Which of course means she is clear to not state anthing about her own feelings.)

Now, is this cool? Is this what I have to put up with as partner with a BPD. No, I'm not up for it anymore.

So our plan for this evening was that I should pick her up at the train station. I would drive one hour just to make it convenient for her, so that she doesn'thave to wait 20 minutes at the train station, and she can skip 1 change of buses. And we would have nice evening together. She wanted me to compose a new piano tune for her during the weekend with some certain harmonies that she likes a lot. I did that. So we were going to play this song together at a grand piano which she loves to do. She can sit there for hours.

Now, she's telling me this, and then she follows up with "Promise me you don't get jealous."

I replied immediately:
"I promise you that I am very jealous."
"And I don't want to pick you up anymore."
... .
Then the rambled on with something like "Oh, so that's what I get when I'm honest... ." etc, etc. And then she ended with something like "I've had enough of this." ... .actually I didn't read it. I've blocked her now.

Now, if you look at this single incident... .it doesn't sound like much. But it's not so much a single thing that ends it. To quote "FF", it's the Big Picture (although FF uses it in another context). The Big Picture summarizes what she has done to me over and over again. And the Big Picture shows the pattern: I can be 100% sure it will repeat over and over again. And yes... .fantastic sex is cool. But I'm not as addicted to it anymore. And of course, I can't have it at any cost. I've paid far too much in constant pain and fear. Or maybe, I paid just what I could afford then. But I can't afford it anymore.

Yes, she might be mentally ill. But I cannot stand this treatment anymore. I cannot control what she's doing when she's in another town (and she will be there, over and over again, sometimes over longer periods of time) and how she's deliberately telling me these things to hurt me. (Because I told her numerous times that it hurts to hear it.) And I don't have to take it. She's not my child, not my mother, not my married wife. It's just a romantic partner. We had some fun together. Now, it has to end.

What I don't really get... .why a BPD do things to deliberately hurt. Like... .for no apparent reason? It would be one thing if I had hurt her or said something nasty to her. After a fight or something. This weekend, I sent her messages like "I love you" and "I miss you" which comes directly from the heart. Ok, a BPD may be socially incapable - to not understand what hurts. But since we've had this issue up for discussion several times... .she KNOWS it hurts, and that it's extremely sensitive. I mean... .what-the-h*** are they thinking?

However, I'm afraid that if she contacts me (I don't think she will), I will be hooked again... .Maybe I cannot even stop myself from contact her. My last record was 28 hours... .

[C.Stein]

That would mean that her break-up threats are more a way to push me and manipulate me, but maybe she does not intend to really go all the way. If that is the case, it's easier to handle break-up threats in the future. I can relax a bit more and don't have to fear those threats and spend that much energy on them. Maybe I could even learn to live in a relation like that.

My two cents ... .this is not something you should learn to live with.  I "learned" to live with it, eventually shrugging off all the threats my ex made towards me.  They were attempts to manipulate me through fear ... .until one day she made good on the threat.  There are so many different levels to these threats that go far deeper than just attempts to manipulate.  It is important you understand these different levels as you move forward from here.

[Notwendy]

Boundaries

Our boundaries are not about the other person. When we establish a boundary- we can't control what the other person does. We just have to choose how we protect or enforce our boundaries. Our boundaries are based on our values- what is important to us. If it matters enough to us, we enforce it.

For a boundary to be effective, we have to act on it. If we say " don't do that" and the person does it, and then we say " well OK" - that isn't a boundary. What that does is teach the person that we don't mean what we say.

An example is with small children. A child might say " I want cookies for dinner". The parent says "no" ( because the boundary is that cookies for dinner isn't good for the child). Then, a small child might have a tantrum, cry, refuse to eat their dinner, until he gets cookies.

The parent has a choice- give him the cookies or stay firm. A parent who act in the best interest of the child will stay firm. A parent who gives in -and the child gets cookies, may stop the tantrum but the behavior reinforces for the child that the parent doesn't mean what they say and that behaving badly gets cookies!

Behaving badly gets cookies.

How does your behavior reinforce this girlfriend's behavior that hurts you. Looking at this may tell you why she does what she does.

The push pull behavior can be addicting. Her behavior puts her in control of the situation. She can see this other guy, and still have you.

You asked her to respect your feelings about seeing pictures of the two of them.

She violated that boundary

You reacted by disconnecting from the relationship. ( for now.)

You are both getting something from this push pull. You could go through the emotional agony ( withdrawal?) until you can't take it anymore, contact her, have some passionate encounter and then, she knows her behavior works for her as well. Why should either of you stop this push-pull pattern if it works for you?

It stops- for you- when you decide you have had enough of it.

If one of your boundaries is either fidelity or respect for your feelings by not discussing her other relationships- well you set the boundary and she broke it. Now, it is your choice what to do about this. But setting boundaries and then going back on them makes them not mean much.

[formflier]

  No, I'm not up for it anymore.

This is your big picture!   

Respect your decision and your heart.

You made a reasonable request of her.  It was up to her to respect your feelings or not.  She made a choice.  While that is not the choice you would like her to make, I would implore you to respect her choice.

Consider who she is and her choices when making further decisions about your life. 

FF

[jasmine-1234]

All I can say is I feel you.

Believe in yourself and your intuition

[Kelli Cornett]

In normal healthy intimate r/s that don't include PD's like BPD, trust and fidelity is an important constant in the r/s and keeps both partners on stable ground and feeling good and close to each other. In a BPD r/s, trust and fidelity come and go when the pwBPD splits into devalue/discard mode, is used as a manipulation and control mechanism, and is further complicated by their lack of impulse control.

That's why being in an intimate r/s with a pwBPD is like living in a constant earthquake. There's never any stable ground that the r/s stands on, and even if things are going amazingly well, it's really just the idealization phase of the moment and will most assuredly break down into another painful devalue/discard phase eventually. There's some great reading out there about how BPD's never see r/s the same way as non's, which is why we're left devastated, confused, and without closure when the final devalue/discard comes.

Seriously... read the threads/posts here and on the numerous other BPD boards, and see what's out there. It's a nonstop barrage of hurt people who are trying to deal with the craziness and pain of their r/s, or hurt non's trying to recover from being discarded. I don't think I've ever read a single thread in which a non posts about how awesome things are with them and their BPD partner. At best, they'll post about trying to work through it like they're treading water in the middle of the ocean with no land in sight.

IMO, that's no way to live your life. We deserve more/better, and that can only come from engaging with a (reasonably) healthy partner.

[RippedTorn]

Georg
You have to hit bottom. Then you will have had enough and be able to stick with NC. It took me over three years of splitting to finally be so devastated that I refused to take it anymore. And I was married. She told me "I could have any man I want". And I told her please go and find one and stop torturing me. For once I meant it. When I reconnected with some sane women friends, it was a breath of fresh air. Like I was back in the land of the sane, away from the nuthouse. After reading so many posts on this site, I realize that every non has to hit bottom. No one can talk you into having boundaries or leaving. You have to really want it to protect your own sanity. I see my BPD now as a hurtful individual that has a need to torment and punish me. I allowed it. I stuck with it. I came back for more time after time. When you are truly ready, you will pull the plug on the water-boarding and send her off to do her work on some other soon to be tortured soul. Don't think it will get better. It will only get worse until you are destroyed. You will KNOW when you hit bottom and then it will truly be over. You will be free.

[fromheeltoheal]

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