Introduction (BPD mother)

[Lennon521]

Hi all,

I'm a 34 year old woman who has a mom with likely BPD. It's unlikely she will ever get help or acknowledge the condition but I read Stop Walking on Eggshells a couple years ago- it rang true to me based on experiences with her throughout my life.  She has very black/white thinking, and has been known to lay on the FOG really thick. When I got married 5 years ago, she seemed to resent my husband as she no longer was able to get her way with me as she used to  (I now made decisions based on what was best for my marriage- not what would appease her). Throughout our marriage there were a few times that she gave my husband and I the silent treatment for a month or so because of a benign comment or action that she would take offense to. Fast forward to now - we have a 6 month old baby girl. In the couple years prior to her birth my mom and I seemed to have pretty effective boundaries in place that made our relationship work. We met only once a month, never alone. And we talked about superficial surface level topics. Now that my daughter is here, she wants to be over all the time. I had to establish boundaries with that and make it clear that they couldn't come over all the time to see her. For the most part she respects it when I tell her. A couple incidents since my daughter was born have made me concerned though

First - when my daughter was 6 weeks old, my mom was over one day helping me take care of her. She suddenly started raging and criticizing my husband. Talking about how disrespectful he was and how she didn't like this or that that he'd said. All the while holding my daughter. I calmly asked her to give me my baby and made her and my dad leave. My dad is an enabler and let's her down and say whatever she wants. The next time I saw them, I pulled my mom aside and told her that she could not speak about my husband that way again. She swore up and down that she only said those things because she was concerned about me (complete lie). Then she hugged me and apologized. We've been OK since then but I've been cautious and not fully trusting of her since then. She's repeatedly asked me to leave my daughter with her so she can "have a chance to spend time alone with her". Absolutely not!

So this brings us to the most recent incident.  My parents went to visit my brother and his fiance. They all went to Disneyland together. They were driving back up and I was talking to my mom on the phone on my way to work. My mom was trying to make plans to come see my daughter. She wanted to come this week. I JUST took her to see them and spend the night at their place last week. I told her this week isn't good, maybe we can figure out a day next week. She asked how my husband's first solo parenting weekend went  (I was working this past weekend and he,was with the baby). I told her he had a lot of work to catch up on so he had his parents visiting and his mom helped with the baby while he did some work. She didn't realize that she didn't hang up the phone after our call and I heard her talking SO much crap about my husband to my dad. She said that he used work as an excuse to get his parents to come over "because he can't handle the baby on his own". She mocked him based on something he said to her previously ... .his sister is a stay at home mom and her husband works long hours as an surgeon. He told my mom being a SAHM is a lot of work and she works hard. My mom said "Give me a break! That's ALL she does, take care of a child. Being a working mom is SO much harder." Then she said something else I didn't hear and said "He's the most full of ___ person I ever met."

I hung up and called her back. Told her FYI, I heard everything you said. Be careful in the future because I don't want to hear things like that about MH. She kept saying "I'm allowed to vent in private to my husband. You weren't meant to hear that." Then she laughed and tried to make light of it. "Just pretend you didn't hear any of that OK? Hahaha. " NO! Ugh ... .

I had to go to work so I ended the call. But I was shaking mad the entire day (that was Monday). I'm still furious and sick to my stomach remembering how she talked about my husband. I don't keep secrets from my husband so he's heard all about this. He's understandably really angry too. He expects an apology from her before he's comfortable allowing her in our home again. I just don't think that apology would be sincere though. I've been ignoring all my mom's calls and texts since Monday but I need to address it. For my own mental health and the happiness of my marriage and family, I feel I need to take a break from talking with her. I know she will be devastated and see it as punishment  (not being able to see her granddaughter). But I don't know how else to show her that I mean business and put my nuclear family first.

Thoughts on how to handle this? I was thinking of sending an email to let her know we can't talk for a while. I'll post my rough draft in the comments and would appreciate feedback on the tone and content. Thank you for reading and for having me here!

[Lennon521]

Mom,

Although you did not intend for me to hear the comments you made about (my husband) on Monday, I did hear them.  What I heard and the attitude that was expressed towards him is unacceptable to me and disrespectful to my marriage and family.  It left me very concerned about ever leaving (my daughter) alone with grandparents who could possibly speak that way about her own father in front of her.  Right now she's just a baby but it won't be long before she understands everything. 

Effective immediately, my family will be needing a time out from seeing you guys.  We do not want this kind of negativity and stress in our lives and it is not healthy for (my daughter) either.  This means that we will not be able to have you visit next week to see (my daughter).  And the previous commitment I made to bring (my daughter) to visit you once a month is now cancelled.  I am taking this very seriously. 

We will contact you if and when we are ready to resolve this issue.  Please give us space and do not contact us.  I hope you will take this time to think about the impact of your words.

[Fie]

Hello Lennon521,

I would like to complement you on how you are handling this. You seem to have a well developed boundary system, which is something to be proud of.

Personally I would include in your email some mentioning of other occasions on which your mother talked bad about / to your husband. Now it seems like this is a one time only occasion, and your daughter also was not there to hear it (it was a private conversation). You could also mention that time when she was raging to your husband while holding your baby - that is just dangerous for the baby, disrespectful towards your husband and not nice for you, either.

[Woolspinner2000]

Welcome to our family, Lennon521! 

I'm really glad that you found us. You present some challenging issues with your uBPDm and also with your dad. I'm very sorry for how she has been treating both you and your husband. It is definitely a good thing that you are watching our for your little one. Even as a little baby, children can sense the anger and rage that a BPD typically shows, and the child will react with fear that can stay with them, even subconsciously. I'm sure you are aware of that as a child of a pwBPD.

I well understand that you want to set up some more boundaries in order to protect all of your family. Sounds as if there has been good success in the past.    Here is a link with some added thoughts about boundaries that may prove helpful to you. One of the biggest challenges for me as I learn to establish boundaries is that I struggle with defining the values that need to accompany successful boundaries. Remember that boundaries exist for us, not for others. Those we wish to establish boundaries against will never respect them. They will always push against them, especially someone who has BPD. So determine what your values are that hold up the walls of your boundaries first, then you'll be able to hold them in place when someone wants to knock them down.

Here is the link for you:  https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries Be sure to click on the "read more" icon near the bottom to go to the workshop we have about boundaries.

Another helpful tool is a form of communication which we call JADE. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

What do you think about this information when you read it?

Wools

[Notwendy]

Hi Lennon,
Welcome to this site. I think you do have a well established set of boundaries- and the lessons on this board can help you.

As to e mails- I would be careful with them. Saying something- that is just said. An e mail can be brought out for all of time. My parents kept my e mails, and my mother would bring them out to use them as some sort of evidence against me later.

I have no excuse for what your mother said, but it fits into the thinking pattern of someone with her disorder. My father was also an enabler- what mother wanted, she got, and she was able to make me do whatever she wanted. So, when faced with my boundaries- she felt like a victim, and would triangulate ( paint me black) to my father who was her rescuer.

When someone is in victim role- they don't feel accountable for their own actions or feelings- basically she was angry or upset because she wanted to see the baby, you said no ( you have a right to do that). She felt angry or rejected but instead of owning those feelings- she perceives them as being done to her- by you, your H. To comfort herself- she complains to your father who probably soothes her, rescues her from her own feelings.

It is important to not take this personally ( this isn't excusing what she said) and not to overly react to them. Because when we react to them, we add emotional fuel to the fire. That e mail may just play into her victim ideas with you as persecutor. I recall that an email like that resulted in my mother painting me black to her FOO- "my terrible daughter is keeping me from my grandchildren".

I think that you have good and strong boundaries. One aspect I had to work on was my own reactivity with regards to my mother. We've grown up in these families and they have shaped how we behave with them. We can't change the other members of our FOO- but we can learn different ways to interact with them- that can be more effective than the ways we are used to relating to them.

So, one option is to lay low, learn from the lessons here before responding in detail. Demanding an apology has not really worked for me, but holding to a boundary has worked. Mom calls " I want to see the baby". Don't JADE ( read the lessons) a calm, validation then state your boundary " I understand you wish to see her, but we are busy".

Saying "no" may trigger her fears of abandonment " I won't ever get to see the baby". When calm, it can help to set a date for a visit- I assume you don't want to be completely NC with her. She is less likely to dysregulate in a public place. Maybe meet her at a place for lunch- when baby is older, you can meet at a playground, or zoo, or something like that. Or bring baby to see her- then you have control over the time spent.

Then the conversation can be " I want to see baby" " Mom, this isn't a good time, but we will see you next Wednesday"

Yes, she said some terrible things. I can only imagine the things my mother has said about me   over the years ( and others she is angry at). The interesting thing is that, once these things are out of her mouth, its as if they never happened, yet we remember them. This isn't to excuse them- it is a reminder to not add emotional fuel to them by our reactions.

If you choose to remain in contact, you can learn to navigate a path to do do that both respects your marriage, your H, your child, and allows you to see her. A first step is to accept that she is who she is, says what she says and learn ways to interact with her.

[Fie]

Then the conversation can be " I want to see baby" " Mom, this isn't a good time, but we will see you next Wednesday"

Maybe Lennon521 does not want to meet her mum any time soon ?

[Notwendy]

I meant this as an example - the time frame- or even if she wants to see her mother at all, is up to her.

Object permanence can be a difficult concept for someone with BPD. We assume that, if we can't see someone we know at one time, there will likely be another time, , but if someone with BPD wants to meet, and hears a "no", I think it tends to feel like "I will never see the baby" to them.

The "no" today but we will see you ____________( choose the time/day) is a reminder that, yes, she will see baby again.

Now, if the decision is to go no contact, that is a different situation and this kind of conversation would not apply.

[Lennon521]

Thank you all for the warm welcome and for sharing your thoughts! I've certainly tried to establish boundaries over the years with my mom and not allowed her extreme emotions to penetrate my own thoughts and feelings. It can be really tough and emotionally exhausting though. Especially now that I have a little one- I feel like my commitment as a mother and my marriage are what need my attention.

I think reading the response from Notwendy made me realize that I actually do want NC. At least for a while. I do get that this will be met with a very emotional reaction from my mom. Inot the past I have approached things numerous times from a place of trying to be sensitive to my mom and do all that I can to keep the relationship on good terms while still respecting myself and my marriage. I ALWAYS make sure to set a date with her so she knows she will be seeing the baby (did so in this last conversation too). It is just getting to a point where I feel that continuing this would be at the expense of my own nuclear family though. It makes me sad and it's scary to think about hurting my parents by expressing my need for NC. I get that this could change our family dynamic in a permanent way that could be hard or impossible to recover from. And my parents want nothing more than to see my daughter. But it is just getting to a point where I have to do what is best for myself and my family. Hearing the way my mom spoke of my husband was just so eye opening and troubling. My "mama bear" instinct just kicked in and I thought "This could affect my child in a very negative and irreversible way and it is not OK. "

[Notwendy]

Hi Lennon,

I understand your predicament- sometimes we find ourselves in a situation where we make a choice that is hurtful one way or the other.

I didn't go NC with my parents, but I arrived at a place where I felt my mother was not safe for my kids and put my foot down. My mother has poor boundaries and by my adolescence - I was enlisted as her caretaker and confidant. By confidant, it included TMI about her relationship with my father ( including their sex lives )  When my kids became adolescents- she began to treat them the same way, and also tried to get them off with her "alone" to triangulate ( probably against me or whoever) and there was no way I would allow her to discuss the topics she discussed with me.

When I noticed her doing this, my mama bear instincts kicked in and I put my foot down about mom being too close to my kids. Although I expected that my father and other relatives would understand, they didn't. If my reasons were validated, they would have to admit something was "off" about my mother- and the family "rule" was to pretend she was fine. So, if nothing was wrong about her, then it had to be me. My mother's FOO was convinced I was the one with issues.

It really came down to this: standing up for my own family, my kids, or keeping my mother happy. That became a choice between my kids or my parents. A sad choice for me, but a no brainer- the kids are #1 for me.

This did result in changes in my family dynamics. I don't think I was prepared for the magnitude of that- my father remained angry at me. My mother's FOO doesn't speak to me. But I have not regretted ever taking a stand for me, my husband, and my kids.

There is one regret though- and not really a regret but a wish I had known more about BPD and family dynamics at the time. Sort of a would have could have wish. I know that my actions still reflected my role in the drama triangle of sorts, and my communication skills are better now. I also know that I took their reactions more personally than I would have now ( knowing the drama triangle). I think I would have done the same thing- defend the kids- but with different skills and less emotional reactivity now than I did then. Yet, we only know what we know at the time, and at the time- I had to take action.

I know that I did the best thing I could for my kids, and family- and that's about the best I could do. You will too.

[Lennon521]

Thank you again for sharing your experience Notwendy.  One thing that comes to mind is something I read while lurking another forum for children of those with BPD. It seemed like a great majority of those people had gone NC with their family members with BPD. At the time I read their posts I was reading it from the standpoint of "No way I could ever go NC with my mom. Just think how angry she would be  (fear). And after all she's sacrificed and done for me in raising me to adulthood  (obligation). And if she had any mental breakdown or health issues as a result, I could never forgive myself  (guilt)." The recurring theme in these posts was that people expressed having a physical reaction to communication from their mok/dad/whoever with BPD. That struck a chord with me because even during "good" periods with my mom, I would often feel my heart racing and stomach churning in response to seeing a text or incoming phone call from my mom. 

One thing that helps to embolden me in the direction of going NC with my mom for now is knowing that many in my mom's FOO would understand my side of it. In the past few days I've talked extensively with my cousin (son of my mom's sister) and his wife (who's a psychiatrist) about this. They have had a lot of interaction with my mom over the years and my cousin's wife in particular implored me to take a bolder stance in going NC for my mental sanity and happiness of my nuclear family. I feel like it speaks volumes that those within my mom's family support my side on this. I would venture to say that very few aside from my dad (the enabler) would hear her side of this and believe her over me.

[Notwendy]

I can relate to the physical reaction to my mother's voice on the phone and to not being able to be around her for a long time.

I considered NC from time to time, but she was motivated to hold it together around the grandchildren- until adolescence when I felt it was not good for them to be around her for long.

I didn't expect her FOO to believe that I was the one with the "issues". You overheard your mother's words on the phone. In a similar way, there was a discussion about me among her FOO. I had e mailed one of them,  he passed it along and the others added their messages. Then one of them accidentally hit "reply all" and it came back to me. As typical of these kinds of FOO, none of them actually apologized to me- they just pretend it didn't happen.

I'm dumbfounded. My mother is intelligent but a low functioning BPD who is seriously affected by it. I took on a lot of household tasks as a teen practically put myself through college ( mom wouldn't let Dad help me much financially) and worked since I was a teen until I became a stay at home mom for a while. And I am the crazy one? But I realize that all these relatives know about me- are what my mother tells them, and she says anything to them, and they believe her. I didn't think they would, and that surprised me.

It did hurt to see that e mail and to lose people who I thought were my family, but the bigger shock to me was how my father responded to my putting boundaries on Mom. He allowed her to dictate the terms of his relationship with me.

I know that had I gone NC, it would have had to be with both of them. He would not have an  independent relationship with me. My mother controlled his relationship with me. She read my e mails, and listened in on our phone calls.

My standing up for my kids "cost" me my relationship with my father. But I did for my kids what I wished someone had done for me. Stand up for me. That was the only decision that made any sense to me.

You have the right to stand up for you and your family.

[Lennon521]

Thank you so much Notwendy. I'm sorry, that is so disappointing that your FOO turned on you because of your mom! Makes you want to scream "Hello, have you not known this woman for however many years?" I want to believe that my mom's side of the family will get my decision. Because they've all personally dealt with my mom's wrath in one format or another. They may not tell her to her face that she's wrong but I think they'll get it. My cousins especially sympathize with me over this. But you are right - I never know who will land on what side of this.

Sadly I already know that my dad would side with my mom. We wouldn't be able to have an independent relationship. To be honest we don't have much of one anyway though. I know he certainly loves me and he's an honorable man. But he doesn't have a backbone to stand up to my mom. And he's never been one to try to connect with his kids in a meaningful way. He loves my daughter though and I do feel awful that this will affect his relationship with her.

[Notwendy]

 That is sad, but he has a choice too. He can choose to communicate with you through private e mail, at his office phone, a cell phone.

 If your relatives are talking to you about your mother- then there is a possibility they will be supportive or at least stay in contact. Our family "rule " was to maintain that nothing was going on with my mother. We were not allowed to speak about it.