Has this happened to you? Painted black lies directly to MY face

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Ok so I knew she was lying to people about me... .that's what they do and some people had told me. But this week, I asked her to pay me back $50 in tolls that she ran up on my tolltag that I forgot she still had. I figured she just wouldn't respond so I cancelled the tag but figured it was worth a shot. $50 is a lot of money. She responded with "Since you mooched off me for a year and I paid all of your living expenses, you can handle that." This is COMPLETELY NOT TRUE. We split everything. Groceries, gifts for the kids, bills, everything. Is is possible that she has told this lie so much she believes it herself at this point? I've never seen anything like it. A direct lie to my face about how our living arrangements were. I'm stunned!

[burton2070]

Ok so I knew she was lying to people about me... .that's what they do and some people had told me. But this week, I asked her to pay me back $50 in tolls that she ran up on my tolltag that I forgot she still had. I figured she just wouldn't respond so I cancelled the tag but figured it was worth a shot. $50 is a lot of money. She responded with "Since you mooched off me for a year and I paid all of your living expenses, you can handle that." This is COMPLETELY NOT TRUE. We split everything. Groceries, gifts for the kids, bills, everything. Is is possible that she has told this lie so much she believes it herself at this point? I've never seen anything like it. A direct lie to my face about how our living arrangements were. I'm stunned!

[JerryRG]

My ex lied, lies and lies about lying

There is no sense trying to make sense out of nonsense

My exgf lied about anything, everything, so I gave up trying to figure anything out.

I don't see this behaviour changing, the only way I win is avoid my ex and her crazy lies.

[joeramabeme]

burton2070
I have similar stories as yours but I now see her stories and lies as emotional dysregulation.  I say that because, it is not a fact-based argument to say the sky is green - she and I both know it is not. 

She used to tell me outright; this is how I feel and my feelings are never wrong.  True enough, feelings are never wrong, but neither are facts subjective.  Looking back, I wished I had not argued her points so vehemently.  It kind of feels like my arguing her was an attempt to validate myself.

It sounds like perhaps your ex has some fears of being taken advantage of or not being in control.  Mine sure did and I was constantly battling her feelings that took the form of a ghost that tried to bring itself into reality.  I legitimized a lot of it by arguing my point with her and in the end, she could have cared less if the sky was green or blue - that was never the point to begin with.

[Rayban]

Lying, twisting the truth, and my all time favorite that she uses even when cornered is ... .deny... .deny ... .deny.

I would advise you forget the  $50 and save yourself alot of anger and disbelief.  The next step after denial will be gaslighting.  Keep intreacting with her and she'll have you questioning reality.

[Confused108]

Lies , lies and more lies! It's what these ppl do. I now know my ex lied from the very beginning with me. She ran after me  until I was stupid enough to belive her lies. Then after her discard she had the nerve to say it was me running after her etc. All lies. So yea it's perfectly normal that your ex is doing what she is doing. Cut all contact. Don't lose your mind over $50 bucks. She is t worth your time or breath!

[Hopefulgirl]

Sometimes if Im having a bad day, I lie awake at night and think of all the lies my pwBPD told me to my face. Then I move on to the ones written to me. The astounding thing is I don't remember EVER calling him out on the lies. Not even a "Oh come ON!". At first I thought the lying was just meant to smooth things over but then I've slowly discovered he was just doing it to get away from any consequences to his actions.  I really am so angry at myself for not calling him out, was afraid he would stop speaking to me but he stopped speaking to me anyway.

I sometimes think, he must think Im so stupid to have believed him. Or he feels so clever he pulled the wool over my eyes and got away with it.  Ill never know, I suppose.

Told me once that his dad had never financially supported him when he was broke and jobless after his divorce, later found out his dad had paid him 1500 a month for rent plus the lease on his car.

[hollow]

To OP:

I would rather call this a "false statement" than a lie.

My ex (with BPD traits) would make such false statements after some time when her reality would get distorted. I had the same with a PTSD girl I dated once. They would both state something that was not the truth, and they would believe it. If I happened to have proof (a text message, an email, a specific incident that could not get distorted), they would get confused.

One time, my BPD-traits-ex accused me of "asking to accompany her all the time during errands or appointments." This was false, as she was the one who asked me to most of the time. When she didn't, I wouldn't ask, except on a few rare occasions one could count on one hand that prompted the above argument. When I presented her with a factual recollection of what had happened that she couldn't refute, she had the most puzzled look on her face. I remembered that my PTSD ex had the same reaction once. I asked if she was confused because she remembered what had happened. She said yes. She couldn't understand why her feelings made her believe otherwise.

In our last recycle, we kept communication to a minimum, and only through texts/emails. Long story short, when her reality got distorted by her feelings again after the breakup, she stated something that had never taken place and that was important to the breakup. I told her to check her messages and emails, and that she would never find that anywhere simply because it never happened. She never found them, of course, and her confusion was magnified.

It seems that in the cases of my 2 exes, they were not trying to lie, mess with my head or manipulate. They just really believed in what they were saying.

[Confused108]

Sometimes if Im having a bad day, I lie awake at night and think of all the lies my pwBPD told me to my face. Then I move on to the ones written to me. The astounding thing is I don't remember EVER calling him out on the lies. Not even a "Oh come ON!". At first I thought the lying was just meant to smooth things over but then I've slowly discovered he was just doing it to get away from any consequences to his actions.  I really am so angry at myself for not calling him out, was afraid he would stop speaking to me but he stopped speaking to me anyway.

I sometimes think, he must think Im so stupid to have believed him. Or he feels so clever he pulled the wool over my eyes and got away with it.  Ill never know, I suppose.

Told me once that his dad had never financially supported him when he was broke and jobless after his divorce, later found out his dad had paid him 1500 a month for rent plus the lease on his car.

Don't feel so bad Hopeful. I didn't realize my ex was lying until after she discarded me. Then everything added up. So I did send her an email letting her know that I was not as stupid as she thought I was and finally figured out what she was. I typed out every lie she told me. Of course I got no response but I feel better. Ow that she knows that I now Know. And will never be fooled again!

[Yaryar87]

It is possible that she sees it that way.  Her perception is already distorted because of her disorder so to her it may be the truth Which is far from reality.  But they don't like reality which is why they create all these lies to protect themselves

[hollow]

But they don't like reality which is why they create all these lies to protect themselves

Sorry, I disagree with that statement. Reality is based on perception (through observation and processing), and as such it is subjective. If people with BPD/BPD traits are controlled by their feelings, then their perception changes according to their current or prevailing mood, and therefore their reality changes.

If you believe the lie you create for yourself, then it ceases to be a lie to you and starts being your reality. (p.s. writing this last sentence reminded me of the film Sunset Blvd.)

Edit: added italics on "lie" to accentuate the point I failed to make by not finishing my sentence properly (apologies!). I don't consider it as creating a "lie" to protect themselves. I consider it as their perception changing. Therefore, if their perception changes, then that's their reality and not a lie to them. It would appear as false to someone with different perception, though.

[Sadly]

I think in my ex's case both scenarios fit, dependant on the lie. If it was simply a small one i.e. " no I didn't eat your chocolate that was in the fridge" then he knew he was lying, but I learnt not to say things like well it wasn't me and the cat can't open the fridge door cos it would send him banana's. He knew he had and he knew that I knew he was lying and hated it. If it a was large lie " I didn't shout and rage and threaten to throw you out of a moving car you are being ridiculous you really need help" he by the time we discussed it had already denied it in his head because he couldn't deal with the guilt and shame. Looking at his face I could see he thought he was telling the truth, even to the pointing out I had tried to jump out of car and he saved me. Very scary stuff.

[rarsweet]

I, too, have forwarded my ex back texts or emails when he has flat out. I have said "hey look at this text or email, you did say this, you are lying now", his answer has been "it doesn't matter what I said then, this is now". Their "reality" is colored by whatever they feel at the moment. So in their minds they are never lying. What was true 6 months ago was true at the time and now they can say something else because their "reality" is different.

[Sadly]

Yep, if I showed him a vile text he had sent as proof he would accuse me of cutting, pasting, sending it to myself, all sorts of weird stuff. He even asked me to show him how I did it? Genuinely wanted to know, like I say, truly scary.

[stimpy]

I only became properly aware of the lies after she discarded me, and I had a chance to look back and work it out in hindsight. I think I experienced 4 different types of lying - or maybe a more appropriate term in my experience - truth avoiding.

Little lies that served no purpose - like none at all, they weren't hurtful or twisting... .just well, pointless

Complete rewriting of history to make herself look good. I guess for these ones she couldn't handle the fact that her behaviour had been hurtful and devaluing to me and therefore she had to rewrite history to make herself look good - to herself.

Complete rewriting of history to deliberately mess with my head and get me to doubt myself and then to maybe start an argument - which I believe is called Gaslighting?

And finally, when she did something that was hurtful to me - a complete avoidance of a discussion of what actually happened. This was done by engaging in the silent treatment by refusing to talk, walking out of the room or telling me to "just leave". By doing this the truth doesn't get a chance to be openly discussed and so is completely avoided. I'm not sure if that is "lying", but it is avoiding the truth.

[burton2070]

Oh all four of those sound very familiar! I'm still vacillating between being incredibly angry at how I was treated and being incredibly sad that she is so sick and that it hurt both of us so badly.

[lovenature]

I'm still vacillating between being incredibly angry at how I was treated and being incredibly sad that she is so sick and that it hurt both of us so badly.

Accept both of those feelings.

PWBPD make up their own reality to fit their current emotion of the moment; projection, gas lighting, and other defenses all relate to this. When an extreme fear of abandonment and shame is at the core of the disorder, it is understandable that they can't be wrong and will do whatever they have to in order not to feel shame and risk being abandoned.

[Sadly]

The thing I really cannot get my head around is this:
When they are confronted with a down right out and out lie. Irrefutable evidence, something to which they should be deeply ashamed of, do they really really think " I didn't do that" or deep down inside know that they did but under no circumstance could they admit to it. I struggle very much with this thought process. I can actually understand if it was the latter but the former just doesn't work out no matter how much I try. I understand the words, it becomes their reality but does it, really?

[joeramabeme]

The thing I really cannot get my head around is this:
When they are confronted with a down right out and out lie. Irrefutable evidence, something to which they should be deeply ashamed of, do they really really think " I didn't do that" or deep down inside know that they did but under no circumstance could they admit to it. I struggle very much with this thought process. I can actually understand if it was the latter but the former just doesn't work out no matter how much I try. I understand the words, it becomes their reality but does it, really?

Hey Sadly - My understanding now is that pwBPD do not possess the same developmental capacity that you and I have.  We ask questions about their behaviors that implicitly assumes they are fully developed in areas that we have and can be fully adult with their actions like most every other adult we know - they cannot.

So asking if they deep down know the truth is like asking a child if they deep down knew they are lying about stealing that cookie - they do, but that is not where they are operating from and have not fully developed the adult concept of their actions having implications on those around them.  And just like a child, when the parent scolds them for eating the cookie, there is no remorse beyond feeling a parents rebuke until the rebuke is over and then it is on to something else.

For me the hardest part is, looking at it from the outside, they have all the faculty of adult reasoning and logic - which makes it even harder to recover from the condition.

[Sadly]

God, it's so weird Joe, I have had emails that swore up and down denying things that happened when we were both there. Things he said and did when we were both there. He's looked me in the face and denied all of it. Like I was making it up. If I hadn't been there at those times I would have believed him.  Even in the last messages to me he was saying " I didn't do this, I have never lied to you. Thanks for your explanation but am still struggling with the concept. P'raps I'm daft  xx

[joeramabeme]

God, it's so weird Joe, . . .  P'raps I'm daft  xx

Doubt you're daft. 

It is all emotional - not really intellectual.  If I told you that you never logged onto BPD Family, would you argue with me about it?  And if you did - what would that say about you? 

Our hearts desires and our minds understanding: Since our heart never seems to relent, we try to beat our mind into submission.  When that doesn't work we are left with trying to understand our hearts desire and crafting a different vision for what makes it beat.

I totally get the weirdness of it all - even after a year I still walk around some days scratching my head wondering what the hell happened and feeling a surreal awe at how a web of confusion could be so twisted.

[lovenature]

Remember that to a PWBPD feelings=facts, they do know at times they have done something to hurt you, but when they feel unbearable shame as a result, they make up their own reality as a defence against the feelings they can't process. My ex. lied to me early on about a relationship with another man (attachment), after I forgave her and continued to try and get closer and show her she could trust me, she projected her infidelities onto me.

PWBPD don't have the capability to assess a situation like an emotionally mature adult does; they only see black and white, and it all depends on their emotion of the moment how they see you. The higher functioning they are the more confusing it all can be; some members talk about their ex. who has an ivy league education, earns six figures etc.-get too close emotionally and they behave like a child.

My ex. once told me she was confused after she couldn't lie (make up her own reality) to explain gas lighting related to her ex.; whatever they need to do in order not to feel shame they will do. One of the most common behaviours is blaming their partner for what they have done; doesn't matter if their partner did something wrong in reality or just what they believe their partner did, it justifies what they have done and they don't feel the dreaded shame.

[stimpy]

My understanding now is that pwBPD do not possess the same developmental capacity that you and I have.  We ask questions about their behaviors that implicitly assumes they are fully developed in areas that we have and can be fully adult with their actions like most every other adult we know - they cannot.

So asking if they deep down know the truth is like asking a child if they deep down knew they are lying about stealing that cookie - they do, but that is not where they are operating from and have not fully developed the adult concept of their actions having implications on those around them.  And just like a child, when the parent scolds them for eating the cookie, there is no remorse beyond feeling a parents rebuke until the rebuke is over and then it is on to something else.

For me the hardest part is, looking at it from the outside, they have all the faculty of adult reasoning and logic - which makes it even harder to recover from the condition.

I found this very insightful thankyou joeramabeme. At the beginning of my relationship with exBPDgf, there were three or four instances where she did something that I found very hurtful - refusing to see me on a Saturday evening when we'd just spent the whole day together; refusing to invite me along to a party she was going to; walking off with another guy at a friends get together, leaving me completely on my own; cancelling a really important make or break meeting at the last minute, because she said she had to go to work.

Now, on each of these occasions, I swear she meant no harm. I'm pretty sure they were not malicious acts.

When I raised each one of these incidents with her she was astonished that I got upset at her behaviour. And this led to an argument and for her to BLAME ME for getting upset... .and she accused me of being "too sensitive" and on one occasion "schizophrenic". Thereby compounding the hurt.

But for her and to at least try and understand it, in her head, if she MEANT no harm, then she can't had DONE any harm. Feelings equal facts. 

So for her, my behaviour was nuts.

Yet for me, her behaviour was incredibly hurtful.

But because she didn't mean to hurt me, she can't have done so, and indeed for her, she can't accept that she has hurt me, because to do so would invoke unbearable feelings of shame.

I saw this shame only one time. I called her out on her behaviour and I think she could see that it was hurtful, and she pretty much fell apart. Very sad to see, she was shaking and crying and I felt absolutely terrible and at the time I couldn't understand why she had suddenly crumbled. Now I think I do.

This is something I have struggled with for months, did she mean to hurt me, was it a manipulation, or did she simply act in a way that was not intentionally hurtful.  Now I think I might have an answer and I think it is the latter. I think she meant no harm, but her actions WERE harmful. She just couldn't see it, and because she couldn't see it, then in her eyes, there must be something wrong with me for reacting in the way that I did.

And then the terrible cycle of dysfunction began. Her blaming me, me feeling guilty, and descending into the FOG that led to much pain and anxiety.

Sorry to go on, and for slightly highjacking the thread, it's just been something of a revelation for me after many months of getting to the bottom of what happened. 

[joeramabeme]

This is something I have struggled with for months, did she mean to hurt me, was it a manipulation, or did she simply act in a way that was not intentionally hurtful.  Now I think I might have an answer and I think it is the latter. I think she meant no harm, but her actions WERE harmful. She just couldn't see it, and because she couldn't see it, then in her eyes, there must be something wrong with me for reacting in the way that I did.

And then the terrible cycle of dysfunction began. Her blaming me, me feeling guilty, and descending into the FOG that led to much pain and anxiety.

Sorry to go on, and for slightly highjacking the thread, it's just been something of a revelation for me after many months of getting to the bottom of what happened. 

Hi Stimpy

I don't think this response is a hijack and is helpful.  First, good for you to be able to put together these pieces in a way that provides understanding of the disorder and secondly, that your responses can integrate that understanding.

We tend to think of being painted black as a mysterious force that suddenly acts upon our pwBPD, but to them, it is a logical process that unknowingly integrates significant interpersonal blind spots into a final outcome.

[bunny4523]

I had similar situations too.  And I think they believe their lies because it makes it easier for them to build up this negative story about you so they don't feel hurt from any loss.

My exBPD told me to invest the max I could into my 401k so we would have it after we retired and it would be better for us taxwise since we were getting married.  Then during the breakup, he told me "you weren't even fully invested. you had one foot in, one foot out by putting all your money into your 401k for yourself."

I couldn't believe it.  Then when I said "YOU TOLD ME TO DO THAT."  He just stared at me... .so fricken weird.

Bunny