Reeling from Thanksgiving phone call

[Rebecca333]

Hi, all.
I'm posting because I know people here will understand and be supportive.  My sister has undiagnosed BPD.  I have kept in contact with her primarily to be supportive of her daughter, my niece.  Otherwise, I would have little to no contact, because her behavior is so hurtful.  Last August, she cut contact between my niece and I.  (She thinks I am evil incarnate, that I alone am responsible for putting her into a pyschiatric ward several years ago... .well, you get the picture.) 

Today, I stopped at a relative's house to say hello, and my sister was there.  I had actually hoped she would be, so that I could talk to my niece for a moment to see if she was doing okay.  My niece is 14, and struggling with lots of issues.  The instant I arrived, and I mean that literally, my sister stood up and left, taking my niece with her.  I did get a second to hug my niece and quickly tell her that I loved her and that she could contact me at any time. 

I don't wish my sister ill, but I truly am angry that her mental illness is causing her to be unkind to both me and her own daughter.  My niece and I am very close, and we have spent many many hours together.  Well, when I got home a few hours later, there was a message from my niece on the phone.  She said that she would decide when she was an adult, when she got out of high school, that then she would decide if I would be part of her life, that I should respect that, and that this decision was hers, and that I shouldn't think that this was from her mother.  She clearly had been crying.

I do understand that my niece needs to keep her mother happy, and that she doesn't have real freedom in this situation.  It doesn't make this any less painful.  I am hurt, angry, discouraged, self-blaming, and just trying to maintain my balance. 

I have never had this amount of sheer hatred coming at me before.  I keep telling myself over and over that my sister is not well, but it's still hard.  In addition to the BPD, my sister also suffered a traumatic head injury which doesn't help matters.

I'll be fine, I know, but just writing this has helped.  Thanks for (virtually) listening, to anyone who stops by.  I am thankful for those who share stories and help each other, for good mental health care for myself, and for the chance to have new beginnings.  Wishing you all many Happy Thanksgivings.

[Turkish]

Does this message really sound like it was from your niece,  or from her mother?

[Rebecca333]

To Turkish,

First, thanks for just being here.

The reply sounds totally like my sister.  I know that intellectually, but emotionally it's still hard, especially as I know my sister is perfectly capable of telling lies to my niece that would turn her against me. (She's done it before.)

I am worried about my niece's mental health.  I know that children are resilient, and that I truly can't control the situation.  I also know that my niece has teachers and possibly parents of her friends that might notice if something were drastically wrong.  But even before this situation, I had noticed my niece caretaking her mom and denying her feelings.

I know for me, the best thing is to completely avoid contact with my sister.  I can live with that.  But I feel like I'm abandoning this child, which pushes every button I have, as I grew up with an abusive and mentally ill mother.  In reality, I know that I can't force things as my niece is not in physical danger, and her mother can legally tell me to stay away.  It's just hard to accept. 

This is a child who has at times lived with me, celebrated every holiday up to now with me, and shared many important parts of her life with me.  I have taken her with me on vacation many years, up until my sister's mental state really deteriorated.  I taught her to tie her shoes, went to her parent-teacher conferences, and helped with her homework countless times even as late as last year. 

All that to say, I feel like I am more than just a remote figure in my niece's life.  I miss her terribly, but if it would be best for her for me to just back away, as I have since August, then I will do that.  She has no choice, and is not an adult.  I have to trust that other people will help her if things get really bad.  If she were an adult, I could emotionally handle this differently, but she's not.  This is hard.

Thanks for listening. 

Rebecca

[Notwendy]

It looks to me like this phone call has your sister's fingerprints all over it.

One of the most helpful models for me in understanding things like this from BPD mom was the "drama triangle". There is info on this site about this.

My mother sees herself as the victim in almost every situation. When in victim mode, the person feels justified to act out. When they do so with another family member, that person feels like a victim. When they react, they get on the triangle - if they act out back- they become persecutor. If they attempt to fix things or help another family member, they become rescuers. Although they may feel like a victim, at least in my experience with my mother, she remains in victim perspective and doesn't see it that way. So she can do hurtful things, all feeling like she is being a victim of the person she is hurting.

As a result of this, she sees the family members as being "on her side" or not on her side. She will frequently rally a member to her circle and bond with them "against" another family member and then announce " she is on my side". The sad part is that there are no sides, other than the ones in the way she sees things.

I have been the recipient of similar phone calls. Of course the person can't say they are from her. Often she is sitting right there or listening in. My father and I were close, like you and your niece. My mother has read every e mail, letter I sent him and if I called him when she was home, she listened in on our phone calls. She has issues about her weight and projected them onto me as a teen when I started to fill out. That was a normal stage but she thought I was getting fat. She coerced him to call me from his office to urge me to lose weight. That was not only insane for a mother to do that, but terribly cruel to have a father tell his teen daughter she was fat. I know she put him up to that.

When my parents were having some issues with a sibling, she told me that if I was supportive of him, she and my father would disown me. Once she even had her housekeeper ( she is elderly and has assistance at home) call me up to tell me what a wonderful mother I have. I know she was sitting right there and her employee had no choice. When my father was ill, I did step in with concern about his care. I didn't know about the triangle at the time, but she ordered other family members to not speak to me and they complied.

I think I have given you an idea of the pattern. My mother issues an ultimatum to someone- that person- or me, and demands loyalty. This is very sad for you and your niece, but your niece at the moment has no choice but to comply as she is dependent on her parents. What astounded me was not the choices of people who had no real choice, but how some grown adults felt compelled to obey my mother.


One possible bright side. What my mother "makes" others do or says is often the emotion in the moment. When she realizes the consequences of that, she often tries to pretend it didn't happen. Your sister will likely assume you have no idea what happened and may even present your niece as the problem.

What can you do? For one, stay out of the drama triangle. Be present for your niece when possible, but without attempts to "rescue" from your sister. Your sister will react to that. If you stay away completely - your sister will convince your niece you abandoned her. A good position is to stay neutral, non reactive, as if the call didn't happen. Respect it, but don't react. Perhaps you can find some way to stay in contact with her, even if she doesn't respond. Perhaps by sending a card, or birthday gift to her at a grandparents or other relative's house. Simple messages like " Happy Birthday, I love you". Assume that any communication is inspected by your sister. Hang in there. Once she is in college, she is free to make her own choices. Don't underestimate the impact you can have on her life over the long run.

[anonanon]

Rebecca,
Thank you for sharing this experience here.  I have a similar family dynamic.  Two years ago at Christmas dinner, my brother became upset by something I said.  He worked himself into a rage, cursed me out, and made allusions to hitting me.  I did not engage him,  but he became more and more angry, ultimately telling his children to go say goodbye to their uncle.  They were all very upset.  He then decided that I could give them their gifts.  He didn't make good on his threat right away.  We all saw each other again after that Christmas.  He didn't apologize.  Yet, he has now not allowed me to see my niece and nephews for over a year.  Nothing happened in the interim that would suggest he prevent me from seeing his kids.  I've tried very hard to see them.  He refuses to respond to my emails.  No one else in the family helps.  It is extremely painful dealing with a sibling who suffers from this illness.  They wreak havoc on a family. 

[Fie]

Hello Rebecca  

What a difficult situation you are finding yourself in.

I think the other members already gave you some pretty good advice.
Does your niece have a separate mobile phone number where you can reach her ?
Even if you don't have a lot of real time contact, sending your niece a card / email from time to time might do her good. Hearing nothing from you would probably hurt her feelings a lot, and by the time she'd be an adult she then might have given up on the idea of contacting you, out of fear you abandoned her.
If you stay in contact, even if she's not allowed to answer you, she will always know you love her, and she will be able to resume contact as an adult.

Take good care of yourself.

[Notwendy]

I hope you find some way to stay in touch with her.  After my father died, my mother told my aunt and uncle ( on her side of the family) not to speak to me and they complied. It was my aunt and uncle on my father's side who were there for me.

My mother refused to let me have any of my father's possessions or momentos. I reached out to my relatives on her side- for anything - a picture, a book that belonged to him. They blew me off. My family on Dads side sent me photos of him.

I wasn't a young person. This happened at middle age. Yet the grief of losing who I thought was my aunt and uncle was in addition to grieving my father. I could not understand how they could just drop that relationship but they did. It's mutual now as I don't know to reconcile this. Neither of us are in touch with each other.

Your niece will grow up. I hope you continue to reach out to her even if she can't respond.

[Rebecca333]

Hi, all.

Thank you so much to Turkish, Notwendy, anonanon, and Fie for your thoughtful and helpful responses.  I need to keep reading the information on here, so I can avoid falling into a drama triangle.

I appreciate the feedback about trying to keep in touch with my niece.  Calling or email is not possible, but cards might work.  However, I'm worried that my sister will just trash anything from me.  We have no relatives that my sister isn't in some kind of conflict with, so sending the cards c/o them I think won't work.  (This Thanksgiving dinner was a rare outlier that may or may not ever happen again.) She's cut off from everyone.  My sister has no friends.

Someone that I talked to a bit about this suggested that I contact her school counselor to see if I could send her a card at her school.  Does anybody know anything about this?  Is that possible?  Would the guidance counselor be obligated to inform her mom?  Also, it seems complicated, like I'm dragging yet another person into this mess, but I agree with the advice here that I need to maintain some minimal contact.

I feel better already having thought about this more.  I'm not selfish for wanting to make sure my niece was okay.  My sister's BPD was in full operation before I even walked in the door at my relative's house.  It is not wrong to tell a child that they are loved and important.  Most important, there are other caring adults in my niece's life, even if I'm not there. 

Thanks again.

Rebecca

[Notwendy]

I think a school would not be able to allow another adult to send communications to a minor without her parents permission. This is a tough predicament. Your sister could toss a card out.

I think it is ok to let things cool down. Sometimes the emotions can pass quickly. Your niece may contact you on her own if she was put up to it. It is possibly that this could blow over.

[Fie]

Hello Rebecca,

I actually think it's worthwhile exploring the option of sending letters to the school address.
I think it really depends on the person in the school you will be talking to, if they will allow it.
The principal of the school of my child is a nice person, when I think about me asking something similar there, I think they would allow it.
Is there a place where you could meet your niece without her mum being present, like when school is out / during lunch break ? You could maybe then just give her a letter you wrote.
Of course Notwendy could be right and maybe there is no real need to try figure out 'sneaky' ways to contact your niece, maybe it will all blow over.

Let us know what you decided  xx

[Notwendy]

If you can contact your niece through the school- surely do so. However, I think that parents can have some input over this kind of thing, as schools can get caught in the middle of custody battles for example, and the custodial parent can designate who can and who can not interact with the school. So yes if you can- do it, but I am not sure of what rules the school has.

Just be aware that in my experience, my mother is very suspicious of any "betrayal" of loyalty to her.  She "ordered" ( yes, that is how she speaks to family members- "I insist that you do this!" and then swears them to secrecy) some family members to not speak to me. I tried to contact them, and one of them brushed me off. The other told me what she did, but then said she would be angry if she found out he told me. Then he said if I contacted him again, he would report this to her. I never told her about him, as she would pitch a fit and I am grateful that someone told me the truth. She has to believe he is loyal to her. So, if anyone did help you contact your niece, your sister would be upset with them.

Who are these people? These are uncles. Senior citizens who have been my family since I was born. In an instant, they stopped speaking to me. But what was my wish really? I so wish these uncles cared about me enough to not listen to her, that they loved me enough to not want to break their bonds with me. But when she put them in the position to choose her or me, they chose her. I haven't spoken to them in years. However, if they ever did choose to contact me to establish a relationship because they did care about me, I would welcome it.

Your niece has no choice, but these men did- they are grown adults. I have a hard time reconciling this, but I had to accept it. Don't give up on your niece, even if years go by. Continue to reach out to her. If she doesn't reply as an adult, that is her choice, but please keep that choice open.