Suggested open relationship boundaries with chronic cheating BPDer ...ugh

[cbm419]

I'm getting fed up with pwBPD.  we've been together 3 years with many ups and downs. one chronic issue is his sexual compulsivity.  he has cheated one me 30+ times in the time we've been together, and we've had a lot of on/off recently where during the off phases he was sometimes seeing multiple people in a day.

i cant resent what he does when we're "off" but im really sick of the cheating when we're officially together.  the last month he has seen 4 people. His reasons usually stem from his own insecurity, or some fight we have, or stress in his life, etc.  he openly admits he struggles with compulsive sexual urges, and he used sexual validation as a coping mechanism as early as 14 years old, when he'd sleep with anyone willing (as such hes said hes been with over 200 people, and is in his early 20s).

most recently we got into a fight where i called him a sl*t for cheating on me so much.  we made up, things got better,  but two days later he cheats, and blames me for the event.  Says  calling someone with his insecurities a sl*t was bad (okay, it was) and I was "asking for it."  That was a few weeks ago.

this week i caught him on a sex app a day after an unrelated fight. he didnt see anyone but it got a conversation going.  the problem is, when things are good between us, he is very loving and extremely remorseful about these mistakes.  says he'd do anything to make me feel better, wants us to work, etc.  when hes mad at me, he wont apologize, will go as far as to say he doesnt need to feel bad and i deserve it for xyz reason.

so this time, I suggested we try an open relationship. Honestly, it was partly a test to see if, in considering the idea of sharing me, he might empathize with the pain i receive in accepting this aspect of himself.  It is so far backfiring stupendously. I keep telling him, these boundaries arent so i can go out on the town with everyone, its so that if something happens with him, my expectations are properly set.  Because essentially, what we already have is a one-sided open relationship.

he doesnt see it that way.  he sticks with the story of "my cheating is part of my compulsive past, part of my disorder, i dont want to do these things. its not the same as it would be for you."  I get that to an extent, but he doesnt seek therapy or help for his issues.  he's known about it for years and does practically nothing to stop himself.   

And when he had the reaction of "i cant imagine sharing you" i quickly said- okay. then lets NOT do it. What i really need to see from you is an effort to stop yourself from now on.  I dont want an open relationship any more than you.  but we cant keep having this pattern of behavior, because essentially what we already have is an open relationship that is one sided.

he just wont see it my way. he now says maybe we should just break up "if you want to be with other people so bad."  I dont want that.  but i want to have clear expectations, so I'm not disappointed when he inevitably cheats again.  he blames these events on my anger and name calling, and the only way to end that is to have clear expectations so I'm not hurt again.

i just dont know what to do. I love him, but i cant be cheated on this much nor live in constant anger and anxiety.

[Grey Kitty]

I've got a history with open relationships, and have had some success with them. If you are interested in exploring how that might work, please re-direct the discussion there.

Proposing that you have an open r/s with your bf would seem reasonable here... .except for two things: First, you haven't said you want to have a r/s or even casual sex with anybody else. Second, it clearly didn't go well with him.

... .he just wont see it my way. he now says maybe we should just break up "if you want to be with other people so bad."  I dont want that.  but i want to have clear expectations, so I'm not disappointed when he inevitably cheats again.  he blames these events on my anger and name calling, and the only way to end that is to have clear expectations so I'm not hurt again.

i just dont know what to do. I love him, but i cant be cheated on this much nor live in constant anger and anxiety.

It seems pretty clear that since he's cheated on you 30+ times, he can be expected to continue to cheat on you.

You can change your expectations. I'd understand if you said you concluded you didn't want to be in a relationship with him anymore given that expectation.

You said he's cheated four times the last month. Is that better, worse, or about the same as he's been over three years?

[cbm419]

I've got a history with open relationships, and have had some success with them. If you are interested in exploring how that might work, please re-direct the discussion there.

Proposing that you have an open r/s with your bf would seem reasonable here... .except for two things: First, you haven't said you want to have a r/s or even casual sex with anybody else. Second, it clearly didn't go well with him.

It seems pretty clear that since he's cheated on you 30+ times, he can be expected to continue to cheat on you.

You can change your expectations. I'd understand if you said you concluded you didn't want to be in a relationship with him anymore given that expectation.

You said he's cheated four times the last month. Is that better, worse, or about the same as he's been over three years?

4 times is pretty in the middle.  sometimes more, usually less.  these events tend to happen in fits and spurts.

i dont inherently want casual sex or any kind of relationship with anyone else but him.  but ive also never given myself permission to think of that.  the only reason i'm open to trying is I'm running out of patience for the constant cheats, and figure recategorizing them within safe boundaries would lessen the burn.  Over time, I'd probably loosen up to doing my own things with others too.

the problem is that hes not okay with sharing me.  he is now saying we should just break up if im so insane as to suggest an open relationship.  to him, his cheating is a grave, awful thing that he resents himself for doing.  he says it causes traumatic nightmares and the only reason he does it is, when he splits into compulsive thinking, he just cant stop himself.

the suggestion to him, if enacted, would just be the beginning of the end. ugh.

[cbm419]

Also I just have to say I'm so sick of co-signing his BS on the topic. When he's mad at me the cheating is my fault and he won't back down or return to baseline until I accept some form of responsibility. When things are good he recognizes cheating is his own toxic problem and burden to fix. The problem is, he forgets about ever saying these reasonable things. He never forgets those moments where I'm so worn down I submit to responsiblity.

It's become so exhausting. It's like I'm dealing with two people who only agree when the issue relieves both sides of their responsibility.

[Warcleods]

You're putting yourself at tremendous risk.  WHY?

Is this person worth a lifelong STD or any other long term damage that he will eventually bring your way?

The fact that you allow him to cheat 30+ times without batting an eyelash is absurd.  According to you, an open relationship isn't something you value or have thought about.  You are basically trashing your values and putting yourself at tremendous risk to appease this person that appears to be psychotic without boundaries.  You sit there and accept his nonsense that it's your fault.

If I am coming across harsh, it's because you are allowing this person to walk all over you, dictate everything and you're wondering why he continues to do so.  

An open relationship isn't the issue here CBM.  It's you making constant concessions to excuse unacceptable, damaging behavior that will eventually bite you in the rear, and it will bite you hard.

[Notwendy]

Hi CBM,

Your situation is difficult, but I think one concern I have about your suggestion for an open relationship is that it doesn't reflect what you really want.

I have done a lot of work on co-dependency and one of the ideas is being authentic to ourselves and to others. When in a dysfunctional relationship - we tend to be inauthentic and manipulative.

Boundaries are a big concept, but they are not about controlling the other person. They are about ourselves, our values, and what we uphold and what we don't.

All we can do is decide our part in this. If someone violates our boundaries, we can't force them to change or be different. We can only decide what we do about that. Boundaries are only effective when they come from our true values.

We can have values when it comes to choosing a partner. We all do this with various values. Some people who are religious decide they will only be in an intimate relationship with someone who is of the same religion. If they are dating someone from a different religion, they really don't have the right to expect that person to change for them. They have to decide to accept that person, their values, as they are, or break the relationship off if they can't. We can substitute "religion" for other circumstances- such as someone with an addiction. If we don't want to date an alcoholic, and we are dating an alcoholic, the decision to continue or not is up to us. To continuously push the alcoholic to change for us - to make someone else change for us- is not an idea that works very well.

We can not change someone else. We can only choose to change ourselves or decide about the relationship.

You are in a relationship with someone who is cheating on you, serially, and with multiple people. Basically someone who is in a way, addicted to this and can not stop and isn't taking steps to stop.

You have stated that you are not OK with this. You want to be in a committed relationship. You don't want to have sex with other people. So basically, fidelity is your value.

So, you have proposed just the opposite- an open relationship that isn't reflective of your value. You've done this in reaction to his activities, and he's upset about it. He wants his cake and to eat it too. Now you are arguing about this.

But none of this reflects what you really want. You don't want an open relationship. You want him to change and be faithful to you, and you are proposing an open relationship as a path to getting him to change.

By proposing an open relationship, are you being dishonest to yourself and to him? The really scary path- honesty- is hard. The more honest truth is that, you love him, and you want him to possibly be something his is not- faithful. If you take a stand for fidelity, the relationship is at risk. If you state a boundary " to honor myself, I will only be in a relationship that is exclusive" it won't include him. That's a hard one to face, and such a decision can only come from you. To stay or leave is your decision to make. However, if you choose to stay in this relationship, it will include accepting him as he is, not as you wish he would be- because the constant wanting him to be different is a source of strife for both of you.

Another option is to give him the choice- I will only be in a monogamous relationship". If he wants to be with you, then he has the choice to be faithful or not. That is scary because of the likelyhood from his history that he won't be. Then you would have to act on this. For a boundary to have meaning, we have to uphold it. That is scary too. However, if fidelity is your value, then your decision is to uphold it, or to decide it is less important to you than your relationship with him.

[formflier]

i just dont know what to do. I love him, but i cant be cheated on this much nor live in constant anger and anxiety.

You only control what you do.

You see what he wants and acts on.  He does what he wants and you "stay true" to him.  That is the "deal" that he seems to have right now.

I'm assuming (please correct if I am off here) that you have said something like this...

"I do not want so share you with anyone else.  Our relationship is valuable to me, please let me know if you can be in a monogamous relationship with me or if you want to continue to have sex with other people.  I need to make decisions about my future and sexual health."

The key is to be non-judgmental.  Don't get caught in circular arguments about what "you want".  You don't want to share... you've said that.

Anyway... .the likely bottom line is that until he realizes there is a "cost" to his activities (no longer being able to have sex with you) he is unlikely to make a choice.  I wouldn't "go there" right away... .but that is likely where this is going.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

the only reason i'm open to trying is I'm running out of patience for the constant cheats, and figure recategorizing them within safe boundaries would lessen the burn. 

That's an idea that came to you out of desperation. And I can understand how badly you want to find something that will work for you and your boyfriend. I can see how this is tearing you up. I wish I could tell you that I see a good outcome from it, but I don't.

For one thing, most kinds of open relationships have some limits or agreements regarding what you (and your boyfriend) will do with other partners, when, where, what you tell the other, etc.

And your boyfriend sounds likely to impulsively step past any other limits, just like he impulsively cheats on you.

And for another, the idea that you would see another guy or could see another guy is something he cannot cope with. And it sounds like his favorite coping mechanism is cheating. Sigh.

Lastly, you don't really want an open relationship, and from how you describe it, your boyfriend doesn't seem to want it--From what you say, he can't stop himself from cheating, and feels ashamed of himself about it.

Well, ashamed of himself when he's not blaming you for his cheating. And let me be clear--you are in no way responsible for his choice to cheat. That's his choice, and only his. He wants to blame you for it. If you accept that blame, even as a way to end the fight right after he cheats, you are working against a real resolution of the problem.

He's not going to stop cheating until he realizes that he's the one doing it! He may not stop anyway.

    You've got a tough situation here, and tough choices ahead.

I recommend you give up on the open relationship, at least with him--I don't see it solving problems for the two of you.

[formflier]

I recommend you give up on the open relationship, at least with him--I don't see it solving problems for the two of you.

Likely a good course of action.

I think before that, you spend some time with yourself.  Be honest about your values.  Do you really have an interest in "open" r/s? 

If you do... .then the conversation should go on with people on here that can guide you.

If not, then I think you should clearly communicate with your SO about your values and ask for a choice.

Note:  Lots of details to be filled in before actually trying open or having that conversation with your SO. 

Basically:  Looking for a clear answer from you  about your feelings and values.

I, like others, am pretty sure I know what it is.  This is not an area for assumptions.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

he has cheated one me 30+ times in the time we've been together, and we've had a lot of on/off recently where during the off phases he was sometimes seeing multiple people in a day.

Hey cbm, What are your feelings about yourself?  Can you honestly say that you love and accept yourself?  Do you feel like you deserve to be treated poorly by your pwBPD?  For some reason, you seem to be clinging to this r/s like a life raft despite the repeated cheating, which doesn't seem to bother you as much as it might others here.  Fill us in, when you can.

LuckyJim

[cbm419]

Hey cbm, What are your feelings about yourself?  Can you honestly say that you love and accept yourself?  Do you feel like you deserve to be treated poorly by your pwBPD?  For some reason, you seem to be clinging to this r/s like a life raft despite the repeated cheating, which doesn't seem to bother you as much as it might others here.  Fill us in, when you can.

LuckyJim

First, thanks to all for the replies, it really does help me sort this stuff out.  I have been spending some time in my own head about this, which was precisely what i needed.

over the last few days he has been on an extended tantrum regarding my proposal. He is so stuck on this idea that "ive wanted to be with other people all along" and have been emotionally dishonest with him. I keep saying thats really not the point, it was more to set expectations lower so I'm less hurt when you do something, and to make things balanced... .if you can do it, I should be able to as well. 

He misses the ridiculous irony in how much this concept bothers him despite his own cheating.  He maintains its "a screwed up part of [his] past," that he doesnt want to do these things.  I continue to repeat that it is still cheating and very hurtful to me regardless of the motivation, and he has yet to seek any help for his compulsivity.

last night he had a complete meltdown because he was feeling down and wanted to facetime with me. I couldnt find my earbuds/microphone so opted to just call, because facetime is annoying without a headset. he literally lost it- started yelling and screaming. He said he wanted to see my face and it was the only thing thatd make him feel better.  mind you he's at his dads house still because of the holiday.  So he woke up everyone in the house and would not calm down. Because i didnt facetime him.  he said i just dont get him, never understood him, and am, in so many words, the devil incarnate.

I gave up on the open relationship idea a day after i posted my OP, and he just wont stop clinging to the idea that its what i've wanted all along.  I repeat over and over that its okay, we dont need to be open, the reason i was fielding that was in some way to help you understand what i put up with. Lesson learned? okay. lets move on and work on fidelity.

at this point i just think we're going to break up.  its gotten way too volatile, intense, and harmful for us both. he's in no rush to get help and as my therapist says,  BPDers really have to work hard to see results, and even those are measurably small.  Often, the way a BPDer goes into remission is that they simply grow up, and no longer have the energy to maintain the drama-thon.  he's in his early twenties so thats decades away.

hes way too dysfunctional in ways separate from the cheating... .the disassociation is brutal, the black/white thinking, victimization.  Physical violence.  Self harm. I've written a couple other threads on this board if your keen to learn more about that. Also, were gay and there is a lot of risk associated with compulsive sex in our community- HIV, etc.  I cant trust that a compulsive person is maintaining and safe boundaries when they go off into dysregulated sex-monster mode. We've already had one instance where he confessed he cheated with a scumbag and thought we should both be tested before we're intimate again.  It came back negative, but the very fact he would end up in this situation is terrifying.

ugh.  its been a weird three years with this guy.  I wish things were better, but his issues with mental health have just become more violent, unpredictable and intense.  I dont think i should stick around and wait for something truly bad to happen to end this.  Gotta be safe and look out for myself.

its going to be hard but I think its time.

[Grey Kitty]

How do you think you would go about ending it with him?

Are there logistical challenges? If you live together or have shared finances, etc.?

Planning out what a split would look like for you is a good exercise--even if you don't do it, it will make things feel more real, and you will have a better idea if it seems "right" for you or not.