If I was to get married what precautions should I take?

[foodlover]

I know many of you would probably advise to never marry someone with BPD but I am curious if its possible to do it safely. I had some ideas below to protect myself and any assets in case she flies off the handle and tries to smear me later. Ive been really really strong on my boundaries lately and she has been calming down a lot. Still a long time to see. She still talks about marriage quite a bit.

I could get a prenup where she waives the right to alimony. She currently works but my fear is that she may quit the job, decide to divorce, then demand alimony. I live in a state where that is ok.

The prenup could also include 3 separate bank accounts. We could separate my account and hers but hold a shared account that we both use for living expenses and it would be a setup for a future child. This amount in the shared pool would be changed as needed.

The prenup could include anything I currently own or inherit from my family.

I could set up cameras inside the house and record daily activities. If she ever gets violent or has a rage outburst it could be used to get custody of the children rather than just give up all rights based on false claims from her. This could be tough because I have heard that I need a written and signed agreement with her stating that she agrees to be recorded. What sucks about this is that I could potentially go to jail for false Domestic abuse charges even if she has no evidence however if I have video recordings of her being violent they cannot be used because she didn't "consent" to it. LOL to our legal system. Wow.

Im trying to build up as much as I can. Any good advice? Any suggestions to protect myself?

[Fie]

Hello Foodlover,

I think any sound advice in this case would be : please don't marry this woman just yet.
Your mistrust of her is obviously huge (and probably justified, don't get me wrong, that's not it).

If I were you, I would wait some time until I am able to see if I can trust her - or not.
Without prenup and without cameras in the house.

Can I ask if you have children together already ? If you don't, please don't start with this until you are 100 % sure she has her BPD under control. As a child of a BPD mum, I wish my father had done just that.
Is your partner seeing a therapist ?

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi Foodlover:   

I could set up cameras inside the house and record daily activities. If she ever gets violent or has a rage outburst it could be used to get custody of the children rather than just give up all rights based on false claims from her.

Why would you want to marry someone, if you know going in that you need to record daily events to protect yourself? Is she someone you want to grow old with?  Is she someone who will be there for you and support you, should you become disabled in some way? Is she someone who will support you, when you are overcome by some stress in your life?

She may be very attractive, and you may have a great physical relationship, but is that enough for the long-run? 

If you are concerned about yourself, would you really want children with this person?  What if you have children with her and the children are low-functioning with BPD?

Mentally healthy individuals many times seek premarital counseling, to look realistically at their compatibility for the long run.  You might consider doing some individual therapy to gain the input of a professional. Also, you might want to consider the fact that she may well get pregnant on purpose, in an attempt to get you to marry her.

 

[oshinko maki]

In deciding if it can be done "safely", you may want to tabulate a risk/reward comparison, as objectively as you can, weighting how much you value each risk or reward.
It seems so difficult to me, like trying to move into a war zone and live safely there; there are things you can do, but you can only do so much.
Please don't get pressured into it too fast, and please be careful to avoid pregnancy until you are sure (if ever).

[foodlover]

Its not about looks and its not about sex. I have been in relationships with many many beautiful women and just didn't connect with them the way I do this woman. As crazy as things can be they can also be extremely special. She can be the most loving and caring person I have ever had any relationship with. She has tantrums like a little kid when she gets jealous.

Im in no rush to get married but she talks about it. I also tell her I wont do that until we can get along better. Her response is usually that "all couples argue and its just a part of being in a relationship".

The biggest problem holding our relationship back from being perfect is her paranoia and attempts to control everything I do to the point of telling me when I should wake up and what time I should leave the house to go to a store or something even if its on my own. Or telling me that I should not do something that I need to do for work because it makes her insecure.

All of those things Im attempting to use strong boundaries to show her I wont be controlled or be blamed for her insecurities. She is started to get it. Its going to take a long time.

Everyone is right. I don't know if I can trust her. But I don't know if I can trust anyone. In the US our court systems are so screwed up and it makes me fearful of marriage no matter how awesome the woman. Even if she seemed perfect it could all be pretend.

My cousin just got divorced because his wife left him for another man but she is now getting 70% of his pay due to alimony and child support. She cheated and he is the one paying. She doesn't even have a personality disorder that we know of but they were the typical perfect couple and she is now basically ringing him dry.

[Fie]

it makes me fearful of marriage no matter how awesome the woman.

How about not marrying then ?
Marriage takes two people. It's not because she wants marriage, that you should comply. Marriage is a decision made by *two* people who want to marry *because they want to marry* - not because the other one wants to marry.

I do not think you need to marry her just so she would feel secure or stop throwing tantrums.

Does that resonate with you ?

[foodlover]

I want to be married. I want children. I want us to be fair and equal. But its clear that the current laws royally screw people over nowadays. I don't want to do this just for her. If I didn't want a child one day I would never marry. No big deal. But I do want one and I don't want to have one without being married and having the support of a loving wife. I think it truly takes 2. I don't think its good for a man or a woman to raise a kid alone unless 1 of those people is more harmful than good.

[KateCat]

You want even more negative feedback? 

The biggest problem holding our relationship back from being perfect is her paranoia . . .

My husband is diagnosed with a paranoia disorder. Do a bit of research about treatment and prognosis of paranoia. It's a grim picture. I say this not out of concern for your finances or your personal safety, but out of concern for any children you might have. What sort of precautions might one take to protect a child from a mother's paranoia?

After many, many years of living in the presence of paranoia, I have come to see it as a pervasive thing, like a "miasma." Like something unhealthy that hangs in the air at all times. Growing up in its presence is a thought that I find frightening.

[Naughty Nibbler]

The biggest problem holding our relationship back from being perfect is her paranoia and attempts to control everything I do to the point of telling me when I should wake up and what time I should leave the house to go to a store or something even if its on my own. Or telling me that I should not do something that I need to do for work because it makes her insecure.

All of those things Im attempting to use strong boundaries to show her I wont be controlled or be blamed for her insecurities. She is started to get it. Its going to take a long time.

I've read so many sad stories about spouses with controlling, paranoid/jealous partners.  Most people discover that the extreme highs and lows, with a disordered partner, won't likely lead to a healthy relationship.  They discover, that it isn't sustainable for the long run.  They usually learn to appreciate a more balanced relationship with a person without a personality disorder.

Is your partner in therapy?  Paranoid, controlling people won't likely change for the long-run. She may pretend to get it for a period of time, in order to get married.  You'd have to be prepared to accept a jealous partner who may not ever trust you.  She may be like so many of the daughter-in-laws that parents post about on the Coping and Healing Board, who keep sons from interacting with their parents.
 
With a person with BPD, you have to accept that some behaviors might be controlled for a period of time, but stresses and life situations likely bring out the bad behavior at some points in the future.  If you married her, you would have to go into it accepting that the same controlling and paranoid behavior will likely continue.

My cousin just got divorced because his wife left him for another man but she is now getting 70% of his pay due to alimony and child support. She cheated and he is the one paying. She doesn't even have a personality disorder that we know of but they were the typical perfect couple and she is now basically ringing him dry.

Your chances of divorcing would be far greater with a person with BPD.  Why not get some counseling to explore your options with a therapist?  It could be valuable to discuss your partner's behavior with a professional and gain their opinion and guidance. 

[ForeverDad]

The prenup ... .We could separate my account and hers but hold a shared account that we both use for living expenses and it would be a setup for a future child.

Any good advice? Any suggestions to protect myself?

My very first thought when starting to read your post was, ":)on't risk having children."  So your words above rang my alarm bells ... .anticipating children.

I often comment what was true in my circumstances and many others as well — While children are great blessings and joys, having children with a high conflict or acting out disordered spouse is magnifying by magnitudes the complications, the conflict and distress over the years and especially when going through divorce and the years afterward.  In other words, if you think a divorce with her would be difficult and require structure and protections, ponder how much more complicated it would be with children in the mix.

In short, you're constructing a scenario where you hope to be protected from the worst of the financial impact.  But if you have children then they could be used as leverage against you and your plans.  And believe me, children are Leverage.  Us relatively normal people wouldn't use children as pawns but a acting-out disordered person won't reciprocate those principles.

Oh, and in my state both parties to a prenup must be represented by separate lawyers.  I presume it is similar in your state.  Do you think her lawyer would advise her to sign a very restrictive prenup?  Is it possible your lawyer will say parts of it may be unenforceable?  Frankly, a prenup is generally about money, especially since custody and parenting are often decided by domestic court and associated agencies.  I suspect that if you want to keep child support within the terms of a prenup, that may not be possible.  Child support agencies wield a lot of clout and they're more concerned about sticking to their formulas than what is fair or possibly even what's in a prenup.

Shouldn't you be even more concerned about the other issues, the elephants in the room such as how any potential children would be impacted growing up in the middle of a dysfunctional home?  Yes, many here deal with such situations through past ignorance but probably few of us planned and calculated for it.  You're an adult, you're trying to proactively handle long term the paranoia, demands, etc.  To a certain extent that is correct and commendable.  But what about children, you know in advance what it may be like for them, who would protect them from an environment such as that?  You can't be there 24/7.  Most of us stumbled into our marital problems, you know what it could be like, already is to some extent and still want to march forward?

[ForeverDad]

I didn't mean to rain on your plans, but as the others expressed, if you're already planning for predictable problems, ponder well before proceeding.  Why would you not think it better to look elsewhere?  While no one can predict the long term success of a marriage, this one sounds quite risky from the start.  There are lots of fish in the sea, better to choose a healthier one, a less risky one.

[soundofmusicgirl]

All kinds of red flags going up here.

I understand that there are moments that you feel incredibly connected to her. It is one of the traits that BPDs have. You are either their king and most beloved husband or the villain and the most dangerous and devilish person on earth. It is called splitting.
I don´t know how much you have learned and read about BPD.
I can highly recommend a 12 week course (we did it over the phone) called familyconnections. It will help you learn about BPD and what are the emotional causes and symptoms and how to communicate. 
You might also learn that BPD can only be treated effectively if that person is willing to be treated and sticks with DBT therapy.
I am no professional, but I assume that someone who also suffers from paranoia will be very difficult to treat.

So with this outlook, do you really want to enter a marriage? I wish it could be compared like marrying a person that has cancer and you help that person on their last journey and have an undying love even after they pass on.
But that is not how it is with someone that has BPD (and paranoia).

Please continue looking. Start believing that there is someone healthy out there for you that will love you the way you really need it and that will not control you. Marriage is so much more. It is more then just feeling connected. It is about making compromises, it is about being able to apologize and change and it is about supporting your spouse and letting them be and learn to be the best version of themselves. Marriage is about trusting your spouse with all your heart.
All of these things are not possible with a BPD (that is not being treated and committed to treatment).
From your first blog post I can tell that you do not feel safe and secure in your relationship.

Please, please please do not just "settle" because you are afraid there might not be anyone else like her out there to love you.
Please also do not give up hope on finding the right person to love.
Yes, any marriage can fail and any marriage can turn ugly. But do not go into a marriage with lots of "what ifs" and "how to protect myself". Find someone where you know they have your best interest at heart and where you feel safe.

[Sunfl0wer]

This post reminds me of the 'ole ":)uck and Cover" technique in the 50's.
Get under your desks kids, to stay safe from an A-bomb, or H-bomb.

www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe50s/life_04.html

Apparently a kids cartoon depicting a turtle and a monkey was made by the Federal Civil Defense Administration to achieve "emotional management" of the situation.

[Panda39]

I think you are settling.  Settling for a dysfunctional relationship.  I would look at why. What is it about this relationship do you need, why to you need it, why do you believe you can't find this with someone else who is healthy?  What is your part in this relationship?

I settled too.  I married someone because "I loved him", I ignored red flags, I could fix him... .

In reality... .
I married the first person that asked to prove to myself and to a past partner that someone would commit to me.
I married to prove to my mother and my friends that I could get married... .that I could do what was expected of me.
I married to take care of someone because it made me feel good... .built up my self-esteem.
I married someone I hardly knew met in June, dated in July, engaged in August... .why? Because I thought I loved him (infatuation).

I didn't recognize it at the time but I also married an alcoholic. 

My husband deliberately sabotaged a condom and I became pregnant. (Yes, women can be trapped this way too)  He did this to trap me and it worked.  I was in a co-dependent, alcoholic, unhappy marriage for 20 years.  I did all I could to protect my son but he still lived in the dysfunction and still had emotional effects from this dysfunction.

Please think really hard about entering into this. In a good healthy relationship you should not be getting married out of Fear (my particular reason), Obligation, or Guilt. IMO you should not be entering into this while already thinking about how you are going to get out, and I personally would not be thinking of bringing children into this at all. (I love my son dearly but if given the choice I would not have had children with my alcoholic husband).

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

Here's a whiteboard animation about the differences between infatuation and love.

[Herodias]

My ex and his married gf have a baby and did it while he was married to me... .proof you can have a baby without being married to the person you have the baby with! I would say don't do it! Too much at stake! Only marry someone you can truly trust. I will more than likely never marry again after what I went through. You have all the red flags telling you not to. You cannot make your situation safe enough to have evidence of all the things that could happen! Believe me... .allot of what they do to you is behind you back. Watch out. If you have to ask this question, you already know the answer. If she doesn't like it, move on.

[Fie]

Hello Foodlover,


I think you have a lot of input now and I hope you will take a decision that is good for you.

I'd like to copy here for you some input of another member in another thread. She's a  child of BPD. The original question she responded to was 'do you think women with BPD should be allowed to have children'.

I can not speak for the individual in question in this thread, but speaking broadly philosophically... .

We currently know that someone with BPD has very predictable behaviour.  Behaviour described as “poison to the mental health of a child”. We also know that the vast majority can not change how they behave. Lack of empathy has also been described (by Steven Hawkins) as the biggest risk to man kind. So logically, given that overpopulation is also a problem... .but its not just about logic, I guess.

I remember my BPD regularly joking that you need a licence to own a dog (use to) but anyone can own a child. This was one of her excuses for her abusive behaviour - the goverment let her have a kid, so it's not her fault. shocked

I would understand if you did not want to separate from your partner. I have been there. When we are in love we sometimes are desperate to keep that relationship, even if there are a lot of red flags.
But marrying is still  one step further. Please don't take that step. And please make sure your partner does not get pregnant. Do know that she might trick you into getting children anyway, so always use a means of birth control that you can control and verify yourself. You don't only have a responsibility towards yourself. You also have a responsibility towards children that in my opinion should *not* be born with a BPD mum.

[ForeverDad]

Have you tried seeking the advice of a counselor?  Not just any counselor but one familiar with high conflict or no-win dysfunctional relationships.  Same goes for getting consultations with an experienced lawyer, one who has had to fight for cases where the children are stuck in the middle of long term discord, illogic and conflict.

I recall one conversation with my lawyer, I was lamenting something she had done that was unreasonable, unfair, outrageous or all of the above, I can't recall, so probably all of the above.

Well, with the typical lawyer's insight he observed, "Well, you married her."   As though it was my fault I got myself into this mess.  I had made my bed and I had to sleep in it?  I replied, "She wasn't that way at first.  It gradually got worse over the years until it got extreme, high maintenance turned into high conflict."

However, I wonder whether a lot of the professionals involved in our cases think that of us, that if we hadn't had a relationship with the misbehaving and uncooperative spouse or parent, then we wouldn't have our overloaded basket of problems that they had to help us resolve.