Dealing with relationship dishonesty

[Notwendy]

I know this is on a milder basis than raging or cheating, but I just caught my H saying something complementary that wasn't true. He ran into an old friend of mine and reported back to me that the friend said some wonderful things about me. Of course, I was touched by the compliments, as they were meaningful. But later found out my H made it up. I did confront him and he apologized, but I was disappointed- not because the friend didn't say what she said, but because my H didn't have to say anything- he could have just said " your friend says hi" or something like that but instead, he lied.

It's a relatively minor thing in the grand scheme of things. I think in general he is trustworthy. I know there isn't cheating or issues with finance dishonesty in the marriage. But I don't know now how much of what he has said to me on an interpersonal level is BS or not, and what to believe in the future.

I also feel manipulated that I fell for it, and he was able to tweak me like that, and all the time knowing it was BS. I tend to fall for this kind of thing, because it isn't something I would think of doing. I can't imagine doing this, and so I don't see it when someone does it. I think he's surprised at how mad I am at this, but I hate being BS'd like this and from someone I put my trust in, it feels pretty icky.

I also know it isn't fair to hold this over his head, but unfortunately, I won't be able to wholeheartedly take what is said to me without wondering. Although it isn't a deal breaker, it is a real disappointment.

So, if someone has any advice for what to do,  especially when someone is trustworthy most of the time, but apparently not all of the time ( I don't believe this is the only time) I would appreciate it.

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[VitaminC]

Hi Notwendy, and happy holidays to you!   

I can see how that would be disconcerting and even a bit odd. Why make things up in detail, as you say? I can understand that it would make you question the truth of other things that are said to you. It wasn't necessary, but was nice, but why bother?

Is it possible that your H felt like complimenting you but decided that somehow it would have more meaning to you in that moment if it came from someone else? Perhaps that you needed a lift, or he just felt like giving you one, and came up with that particular way of doing it?

Have you asked him why? Asking calmly and with curiosity and giving him the benefit of the doubt that it was well-intentioned and that you would like to understand the intention better? Once you understand his way of thinking about this, it might be more likely that you can explain that you want to know what is in his head and his heart (and not what he assumes or would like to be in the head or heart of someone else, your friend in this case).

Have a peaceful day       

[SunandMoon]

Hi Wendy
I understand that this shakes your trust in your partner and it also seems like such a strange thing for him to do.

Is it possible that he wanted to acknowledge you and this was his round-about way of paying you a compliment?

It would be good if you could ask him in a gentle way, bearing in mind that if he was trying to tell you how wonderful you are, he may be reluctant to put it in his own words... .

[Notwendy]

Hi Vitamin C-

I do think it was intended as a way to make me feel good. It is part of his outward persona. He is amazing at work, to people he knows casually. Everyone thinks he is wonderful, and he has this persona down pat. I fell in love with this persona. With the issues being on the mild end, only the most intimate relationship has been effected- that is between him and me. So, I am the only one in his life who has seen the other side of Mr. Wonderful.

So this white lie was a part of Mr. Wonderful, who is well skilled at making people feel good and to like him. I realize this may be his way of being nice to people and he was trying to be nice to me. I also can see that he was upset that it didn't work the way he intended.

One of my issues is that Mr. Wonderful feels like a cruel illusion because I fell in love with him and then later met "Mr. Paint You Black" and treat you poorly. I have tried to let him know that I would prefer Mr. Real- a combination of wonderful and imperfect. We are all just humans trying our best most of the time. I think we have achieved that state for much of the time, but the Mr. Wonderful is an unwelcome persona. I don't enjoy the anger episodes, but to be honest, they seem more real when he is saying exactly what he is thinking in the moment instead of what he thinks I want to hear.

[Notwendy]

Hi SunandMoon-

I agree, he was trying to be nice in the way he knows how to be. I did tell him I would rather have honesty than that.

I prefer people to be straightforward with me. I hope he gets that now.

[Sunfl0wer]

Notwendy,

I so get why this would be uncomfortable and cause trust issues.

My ex did similar.  I feel it was part of his narc traits.  He wanted reflected back to him a version of me he loved most, cause it helped validate who he wanted to be. (A guy who could take responsibility for causing everyone's happiness) He loved feeling responsible for my bubbly happy personality by surprising me with a treat or such.  He felt devastated when I was sad or disappointed.  Had he relayed very simple info to me and my face went sour, he literally would personalize it.

You and I know that a sad feeling about news being delivered is about the news, not the person delivering it.  Yet my ex seemed to see things as categorizing himself as either a "good guy" or a "bad guy" and if he saw my face get sad by news, he thought feelings = facts, he caused my sadness, therefore I view him as a bad guy.  This was NOT at all how I thought or felt.

He really was uncomfortable being in my presence unless I was holding his narc mirror to him and helping him see himself as a "good guy"

I wonder if your H, in his attempt at empathy, thought you'd have an expectation of hearing that the person said great compliments, therefore he didn't want to be responsible for seeing you sad, letting you down (as he may be if roles reversed) So rather than deal with the understanding that you have your own reactions to news... .(which would mean insight that u can feel diff than he would)  He thought he would "save" you from that, thus saving himself from having to deal with anything less than wonderful existing between u two... .which he felt would be uncomfortable.   Maybe justifying it as a white lie "no dear, that dress does not make you look fat" logic simply applied wrong.

(Yea, I know that was me making a ton of crap up, )

[Notwendy]

Sunflower,

What you are saying makes a lot of sense. My H likes to see me happy ( of course we all want to see people we care about happy) but if I am showing distress in his presence, can dysregulate- even to the point of him getting angry- which is not what one wants if seeking support.

At one point, I considered the idea of NPD. I assumed all pwBPD were women, and the male version was NPD. In addition, having severe BPD mom as an example of BPD threw me off. But something about NPD didn't quite fit as well as BPD traits in a man. The model that fits is the one that helps me understand the situation for me, how my FOO influenced me to make the choices I do. But there are overlaps between the two.

Actually, the news of running into my friend would have been fine without the lie. I would have been happy to hear she said hello. There was no disappointing news to begin with. He's  done this kind of thing before- said something untrue to gage my reaction but then mostly stops. This time, he kept the story going.  I feel really played, manipulated when this happens.

I think it is connected to the persona. Like many people here, I initially wanted Mr Wonderful, the man I fell in love with back during the bad times. I would do, try, anything to get him back. I can even recall us being somewhere, he would be giving me the ST, someone he knew would see him and he'd snap into Mr. Wonderful with them and then back to the ST, angry person with me when they were gone. Sometimes when we are out together, I hardly recognize this persona- so different from the person I have come to know.

The thing is- I don't like Mr. Wonderful. He's not real. The person I have at home- both the good and the not so good, is the one I want. I've told him that as well. I don't want someone to say nice things to me that are lies.

[Sunfl0wer]

This time, he kept the story going.  I feel really played, manipulated when this happens.

This feels a bit more than simple avoiding getting you disappointed via sorta "white lie" of stating someone looks good in an outfit.

Idk, sorry, that would creep me out.  I wouldn't know what to make of it: someone lying, watching my expression intentionally trying to elicit some emotion.

Your feelings are yours of course, just gonna say mine  ... .I would feel emotionally molested.

I feel protective when another wants to elicit and watch my emotional state change... .attempting to regulate my emotional state... . I would feel violated and creeped.

I hope that is not TMI.
You work so hard sorting your stuff out in all areas.
Idk what your gut says but, I'd trust your gut.  If you trust him less, yea, sad, unfortunate, but also a natural consequence and all.

[Notwendy]

I agree with what you are saying- I feel violated.

What is sad about this is that, in the grand scheme of things, it isn't a deal breaker in terms of a relationship, he did apologize, and only time will tell if it happens again.

The hard part for me is even if this doesn't happen again- I will tend to question what he tells me. I don't really know when someone is telling the truth or not, unless I find out later.

Trust is a relative thing. I do trust him on many levels. He is trustworthy in business, with his co-workers, with the children. I know that he is faithful to the basic principles of the marriage. I feel lucky in this sense. BPD mom has done so many dishonest things, I don't trust her at all.

But in the middle ground with me, on the intimate relationship level, he is more evasive than dishonest. Doesn't show his cards, keeps the upper hand. I think he does this to manage the vulnerability of being in a close relationship.Considering how I grew up ( one would think I would be suspicious of others), I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt- until they show me otherwise. The unfortunate consequence of this is that it erodes my taking him at face value.

Vitamin C- I have wanted to know what is in his head and heart, but asking results in a very slow, carefully calibrated response. Conversations like that are frustrating. I come right out with saying what I think. His responses are slow, deliberate, carefully calculated- as if he is deciding what he should say to me. He will speak freely about topics that are not personal. The news, politics, things at work. But ask him to tell me his thoughts results in the same calculated conversation. It feels as if I am squeezing words out of him and so emotionally exasperating that I just don't wish to do that. The other time he speaks freely is when he is angry and doesn't filter his words. It isn't comfortable, but as I said, I prefer the real person with the true feelings.

What has improved? A lot. Before working on my end of things, telling him I am angry at this would have resulted in a circular argument, maybe a rage, maybe the ST. I think MC has made him aware of managing these responses. However, I also don't fear them, so I am able to stay calm when he does get upset. This has taken work on both our parts. I also know he is committed to the marriage and mutual values and that is an important aspect as well.

[Sunfl0wer]

Interesting issue this causes.

For me, honesty and vulnerability = intimacy.

Now, if I have to internalize the fact that my SO is less honest than I suspected, then I'm going to feel a sense of loss of the illusion of intimacy I thought we had.

Seems mature/appropriate that you realize there are many ways you do trust him.  Yet, doesn't take away this area you possibly feel a sense of loss or disillusionment over or such.

Doesn't show his cards, keeps the upper hand. I think he does this to manage the vulnerability of being in a close relationship

This makes sense.

Well, this sounds like a horribly cynical post!
Not at all intention here... .more like a drawn out way of saying I don't blame you for feeling the way you do and I certainly feel I relate in ways.  Kinda coulda shortened it to: I hear ya, don't blame ya, listening

I can't think of a thing better to do than what you are, by focusing on positive about the situatiin... .that he is trustworthy in certain areas, that this is not all of who he is and the pair of you have made gains in MC.

[Lockjaw]

Maybe he wanted to see if he still has "power over you" so to speak?

I would have been upset too. The lie part is one thing, but the other I think is we as a society are so focused on the negatives people do, not the positives.

My GF said this am, she changed her narrative, that she was disappointed. My codependent self heard "in me" adter that. Nothing she could say made a difference.

So I think when you are with a BP, you just really crave hearing someone stay something nice, good, complimentary about you. Does that make any sense?

I think you are great by the way. 

[Notwendy]

Thanks for the support.

Yes, Sunflower, I have grieved the lack of a certain intimacy. It's odd because when we were dating, we were both so busy- that I just assumed it was the hectic schedules. I don't think I quite realized it would be for the long run. Sadly, I know he craves it. My co-dependent self provided it in the beginning, thinking that in time he would open up to me. Then it just felt that he loved my being vulnerable but no way was he going there. Then he painted me black for what was to be some pretty dark times. Things are better, but vulnerability isn't an easy thing to have. Once I got a handle on my own fears, things got better. The book Passionate Marriage has a lot of wisdom on this topic of enmeshment and vulnerability, and relationships, which to me was valuable beyond the steamy parts.  

Thanks for the kind words Lockjaw and the hug  . I think as we are able to validate ourselves more, the kind words from our SO's are appreciated, and the mean ones bother us less. I've read your statements about feeling worthless and not good enough. The sad part about looking at others to help us with this- to hear nice things is that, the real issue is that we tend to hear these things about ourselves- and also to seek out relationships that trigger these feelings of insecurity. The solution? Self care, self validation, not letting others reality define us. It's really worth that work, in or out of a relationship.

I do feel this is a power play. That is a common dynamic. But a marriage shouldn't be a power play.

In the long run, there are more positives than negatives which is a motivator to work on these things. I also know that when I do the personal work, it is better for me overall.

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Notwendy,
I would also feel a loss of trust if I were in your shoes. That said, my guess is that your husband wasn't necessarily trying to be manipulative. It may be that he picked up on your friend's good feelings about you (feelings = facts) and in a moment of positivity, put words she hadn't spoken to the feelings he sensed she felt about you.

Emotional vulnerability is such a difficult expression for pwBPD. We were at a small Christmas Eve party and the host asked each of us to talk about our greatest challenge and our biggest success in the past year. He started off talking about his own health issues and from that point, everyone followed his lead and talked about something very personal and deeply meaningful.

I wondered what my husband would say. To my surprise he talked about how, in his Buddhist practice, he achieved a deeper level of understanding/realization early in the year, and then went through an extremely dark place. (Of course he never mentioned a word of this, ever, to me, but I've seen the dark place he's been in for months. I've asked him time and time again, to confide in me, but of course he never trusts me enough and only says, "It's nothing important." Very frustrating to be the partner of someone who is so shut down.)

After the party, on the way home, he fretted again and again about "making a fool of himself." I tried not to invalidate him, but to disagree with his assessment, since we all spoke of our own vulnerabilities.

And then on Christmas day, it seemed as if the black mood had finally broken. For the first time in weeks, he seemed more upbeat. To me, that's the consequence of sharing one's feelings--but hey, what do I know?

Anyway, sorry to get off on a tangent, but my main impression is that your husband is really unfamiliar and uncomfortable being emotionally vulnerable. Perhaps he was just trying something new and wanted to share the enthusiasm he sensed your friend holds about you.

[Notwendy]

Wow Cat-that is such a big step for your H.

If I heard my H speak about feelings like that- in front of anyone- even me- I would think he had been replaced by a different husband somehow. This is just not who he is.

I'm not sure what he was trying to do with the friend. I do know he sometimes BS's me as a joke, but I don't get those jokes. I don't trust just anyone, but if I do trust someone, I don't like that to be made light of. I let him know that, and I know he got it. The problem now is that I will likely second guess what he tells me. Maybe that's a lesson for me.

I think he enjoyed seeing the happy look on my face, but being that this pleasure was at the expense of honesty, it feels creepy.

[Notwendy]

About emotions- I have not seen my H express spontaneous emotions or emotions in general, with the exception of anger. An angry outburst is the one time his words just flow, the rest of the time they feel calculated and measured. Although at one time, I pushed, craved- wished for these heart to heart talks, the result was a few carefully calculated and slow responses. I don't want to go there anymore.

This is the improving board, so I don't want to discount the improvements we have made. We are at the place of "little things" like this incident that are not relationship deal breakers but do inhibit intimacy. Maybe I shouldn't take what he says to me at face value, some of it could be BS, but for me, I don't want to be second guessing what he says to me.

As to emotions, he does not share them ( except for anger) and his range of expression is limited. He isn't on the autism spectrum, even the people I know on the spectrum express their feelings quite well. He grew up in a home where nobody expressed feelings ( except anger ) and it wasn't safe to.

One of his attractions to me was that I am expressive, but instead of the shared experience of emotions, he seems to enjoy watching mine ( the positive ones, not sadness or anger-showing those triggers an anger outburst). He likes it when I am vulnerable and expressive, but he doesn't seem to take that risk.

Not being emotional or reactive has worked well to keep down the drama in the home. Circular arguments are mostly a thing of the past. But what remains between us is the difference in how we process emotions. He needs a lot of distance. Weak boundaries isn't the issue- The point of comfort for him is iron clad ones. That isn't my choice, but respecting boundaries is important- on both sides.

Cat, I do suspect the little BS story was a way to get an emotional expression from me- and maybe this is the way he knows how. I guess the next step is to get some new ways in place.

Wow, your H expressing himself in a group is such a huge step!

[Sunfl0wer]

 

About emotions- I have not seen my H express spontaneous emotions or emotions in general, with the exception of anger. An angry outburst is the one time his words just flow, the rest of the time they feel calculated and measured. Although at one time, I pushed, craved- wished for these heart to heart talks, the result was a few carefully calculated and slow responses. I don't want to go there anymore.

At the risk of being too honest... .
Imho... .
It is possible your husband is actually a psychopath and does not experience emotion as most folks, just experiencing frustration/anger clearly.
Possibly he was fascinated with seeing and learning about your emotion, hence the lying.

I am not a fan of folks around here who throw around terms like psychopath, yet, what you describe here, by definition, actually is.

There is a false stigma that all psychopaths are murderous or such which is simply false. They just don't biologically experience emotion as the majority do.

Your description reminded me of my ex SD who was thoughtful and calculated about her displays of emotion.  She simply appeared to be mimicking emotion for the sake of an audience and did not seem to organically generate these feelings.

[Grey Kitty]

I gotta agree with your "ick" feeling about this. I was raised with a very strong value of honesty, so this would bug me too. The violation of trust in it is very real.   

It's a relatively minor thing in the grand scheme of things. I think in general he is trustworthy. I know there isn't cheating or issues with finance dishonesty in the marriage. But I don't know now how much of what he has said to me on an interpersonal level is BS or not, and what to believe in the future.

I suggest radical acceptance about this. Exactly as bad as it is.

He chose to lie, wanting to see a reaction from you. You caught him on it. He might have done similar before, and he might well do similar again. Expecting better from him isn't realistic.

He didn't chose to lie about something worse (like cheating or financial stuff). Don't go down that rabbit hole, thinking "If he could lie about that, he could lie about anything... ."

Try to find the middle path between those two extremes--neither one of them is healthy for you to go down.

[Notwendy]

Thanks GK, radical acceptance is a good idea. So is the middle of the road- not being overly reactive or thinking in black and white.

I have noticed that many people who follow a different idea about honesty still have moral boundaries. They may not be the same as other people's but they are still there. People may think it is OK to lie about some things, but wouldn't cheat, steal, murder. I think the 10 commandments is a pretty universal code.

I think people also discern when to decide to bend honesty with questions like" does this dress make me look fat?" I think it probably takes some good awareness to not do this to the point of harming trust and intimacy and perhaps the small lies are choices in the moment without considering those consequences. I think that we each have a different boundary about these decisions but share similar ones when it comes to major trust breakers.

[Lockjaw]

I hate this happened to you. Doesn't sound fun. I can sure relate. I asked my GF to be my number 1 encourager.

You can guess from all my posts how that went over.

I told my buddy at work that 2017 was going to be the year I quit trying to make everyone else happy. And I started a little early. I am sitting at home, going to bed early and getting up to go sit in the woods in the morning.

Hope I see a deer.

And I set up an appt with a therapist for next week. I am going to work on me.

[Notwendy]

Good for you- seeing a T, taking care of yourself!