Need help with validation - feelings vs. thoughts/ideas

[Monge]

So I have been trying very hard to work on validating my upwBPD because I can tell in many instances that this is what she is looking for... .my problem comes with the act that she knows and understands exactly what validation is. she took a lot of psych classes in college and saw a therapist for 2yrs after she got out of a very physically abusive relationship so thinks she has no issues, although after being with her for over 18 months I'm really not sure how much truth the therapist she saw was told about her own behavior in any given situation (NOTHING is EVER her fault in her mind).

My issue with validating her is that whene I attempt to do it, she basically uses against me the knowledge that I have told her she is fully entitled to her feelings and I can never tell her that hose feelings are wrong in any way because they are her own personal feelings.

As an example - she instead of her feeling mad or upset or anxious or angry, etc, she will say "I feel like you are checking people out all the time and want them instead of me" (not true). When I try to validate - "I understand why you would be mad or hurt if I was cheating on you... .I'd feel the same way if I thought you were cheating. But I promise you I'm not and I don't check people out or want someone else instead of you", she simply responds by saying well I feel like you're looking at people and want them and that's how I feel and you can't tell me my feelings are wrong"

She uses this to bait me in to arguments because from her POV i am basically telling her that her feelings don't matter and are wrong by telling her I'm not doing what I've been falsely accused of... .does anyone have advice on how to work around this?

I want to validate her feelings, but it has turned in to a situation where if I don't explicitly agree with what she says (she even badgers me until I use specific words to say what she wants to hear), then the fight will continue and I'm the most terrible person in the world... .I've tried to have a calm conversation about how there is a difference between what she thinks and the feelings those thoughts cause her to feel, but it just turns in to a huge rage fest... .any help would be appreciated as it's getting extremely exhausting

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[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi Monge:
Validation doesn't mean that you agree with her, just that you acknowledge her feelings.  You don't want to validate the invalid.  Sometime, just NOT invalidating by word and expression can be enough.

You don't want to get into CIRCULAR ARGUMENTS and JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain).  Best to shut the discussion down, after a brief validation.  You could tell her that you are sorry she thinks you are checking out other women, but it isn't the case.  When she continues to argue, shut her down and refuse to argue (the conversation is over).  Walk away to another room, etc. The information below on "The Dysfunctional Dance" should be helpful.  Also, best to learn about  EXTINCTION BURSTS

US: The Dysfunctional Dance - Self-inflicted Wounds
You might find this Workshop information helpful, the entire workshop is at the link below.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=66672.0;all

Excerpts from the workshop are quoted below:

US: The Dysfunctional Dance - Self-inflicted Wounds

Many of us are in oppressive relationships with our self esteem eroding... .what part of this "abuse" is self inflicted? How do we contribute to the dysfunctional dance?

One example... .
Margaret Paul, Ph.D. (info) says "we are being victims anytime we give another person the power to define our worth. We are being victims anytime we blame another for our feelings of fear, anger, hurt, aloneness, jealousy, disappointment, and so on."

Paul uses the following to exemplify her point... .

When I asked Don why he sits and listens to Joyce, he stated that he hoped if he listened to her she would listen to him. I asked if she ever does listen during these conflicts, and he answered "No."

"Why do you need her to listen to you?"

"I want to explain to her why I did what I did with the children."

"Why do you need to explain it to her?"

"So she won't be mad at me."

According to Dr. Paul, Don allows himself to be yelled at by Joyce as his way of trying to control Joyce, hoping to get her to approve of him. Then he tried to explain to further control how she feels about him. When she won't listen, he feels victimized by her yelling, blaming her for being such an angry, controlling person.

If Don were willing to take responsibility for approving of himself, he would not listen to Joyce when she was yelling at him. Instead, he would set a limit against being yelled at, stating that he would listen to her only when she spoke to him with respect and only when she was open to learning with him. But as long as she has to approve of him for him to feel secure or worthy, he will not set this limit. Until Don takes responsibility for his security and worth, instead of handing this job to Joyce, he will be a victim of her unloving behavior.

Taking responsibility for our own feelings of worth and lovability, instead of giving that job to others, moves us out from being victims.

. . . .With weak boundaries, we become sponges who allow our bps to step inside our inner self, suck up our energy, and define our world for us.  We permit them to tell us what to do, when to do it, and who to do it with. With each passing day, our self esteem deteriorates, and our ability to defend ourselves decreases.  

Nons tend to be compassionate, giving, and sometimes needy people.  At some point in the relationship we might have recognized that our bps were in pain and out of control.  We were moved to give more of ourselves than was healthy. Or, we may have stepped in to take responsibility for their life. (Sometimes it's easier to deal with someone else's issues than it is to address our own.)  We either didn't know how (or were afraid) to set limits, or didn't know what our limits were.  So the dysfunctional dance began.

[Jessica84]

In a sense, you are telling her she is wrong. Because, well, she is! Assuming you don't want to be with anyone else and you aren't checking anyone out... .

So rather than own or deny the accusations (which is kind of a trap anyway), focus on validating her fears, discomfort, pain. She's obviously insecure and afraid you want to leave her for someone else. That's a vulnerable scary place to be. Validate those feelings and she may stop hunting for the "right" words from you.

Also, listen to what she actually said. She didn't accuse you of cheating. She accused you of wanting to cheat. Slight difference, but you want to validate the right feelings - her fears, insecurities, anxiety. Bringing up the word "cheating" when she hasn't could possibly be triggering too, bringing on the rage. I know it's exhausting having to carefully choose your words... .hang in there!

[Monge]

Thanks to both of you.

NN - appreciate the links - I've actually read through both of those numerous times and unfortunatelt I haven't been able to get it to work :-/

part of it is the living situation I'm currently in - I had to move out of my apartment in Brooklyn and back to my parents house after leaving my job about 3 months before I started seeing her because of some serious health issues that caused big problems... .so whenever I attempt to validate and then not get in to a circular argument/JADE it's difficult for me to get away because I can't just leave her at my parents house and bail out... .I started working again finally a few months back but I need to build up my savings again because I pretty much depleted everything living on no income for that long (still had my own apartment in Brooklyn for about 7 months of that where I was paying around $2k/mo in rent and bills... .)

I have never involved my parents much in my love life and would like to kee t that way , which she knows, so she takes advantage of that as well and uses it as leverage to gain compliance... .

Jessica - appreciate it! She has definitely accused me of actually cheating before, so apologies for not wording things as accurately as I should have... .she has actually found ways now to completely cut me off from all of my guy friends at this point because basically if I'm hanging out with them instead of her when I have free time, we must be doing what we used to and going out to bars, hooking up w girls, etc., etc.

To be fair, before I started dating her I was always out somewhere w my friends, usually with a few girls or meeting girls where we were and I certainly have a very different past than her (used to make a lot of money selling illicit goods for 6-7 years in high school/college, always partying, very social with lots of girl and guy friends,etc.) but it's like she wants me to spend 100% of my time thinking about and focusing on her. While I enjoy doing that, she's become more and more restrictive and condescending about anything that I actually enjoy doin myself which makes it hard because I've started to resent the attitude she takes and the false accusations she makes even tho I've stopped doing anything besides seeing and hanging it with her (outside of work now).

I just don't really know if I've got what it takes to be her caregiver any more... .it's completely exhausting to constantly be on the defensive and it's affected me negatively in a lot of ways - don't see any of my friends, never go out and do anything I enjoy, have gained about 85 lbs since we started dating, etc... .:-/

Sorry getting off topic - #endRant

[Monge]

On a side note - I mention those past parts of my life bc I know it adds to her anxiety with everything... .but probably the biggest part of what triggers me and makes me unable to stick to these techniques when we fight is her complete and absolute inability to be held accountable for her actions. There is ALWAYS someone else or something else at fault... ."they/it forced me to do x,y,z... ."... .the whole "radical acceptance" principal is what I've struggled with the most I think... .I'm no angel and I've certainly done my fair share of bad deeds, but I'm the first one to claim responsibility and will be 100^ accountable for what I do. That's something I grew up with and feel is right.

She will admit that she does something wrong, but it is always followed up by some kind of bs justification which really triggers me - it's soo hard for me to let it go so it ends up turning in to a bigger fight 95% of the time :-/

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi again Monge:  

 
it's difficult for me to get away because I can't just leave her at my parents house and bail out... .

If she isn't living at your parent's house, you can ask her to leave, if she won't comply with a boundary. I can see how you wouldn't want to disturb your parents or triangulate with them in an unhealthy triangle.  You can't hide the problems from your parents forever.  You will need to deal with some uncomfortable situations, in order to work on change.  As long as you appease her to avoid her rage or dysfunction, no change will happen.  She will continue to manipulate you and have you under her thumb.

I just don't really know if I've got what it takes to be her caregiver any more... .it's completely exhausting to constantly be on the defensive and it's affected me negatively in a lot of ways - don't see any of my friends, never go out and do anything I enjoy, have gained about 85 lbs since we started dating, etc... .:-/  

At some point, you need to decide if you can live with this situation for the rest of your life.  Would she make a good mother, if children are a possibility (would you want her for your mother?)

When one person exercises extreme control over another, it is considered abuse.  It's a slippery slope and if you don't feel like a prisoner yet, you well could in the future.

Is this situation something you can live with for the long run?  Carrying around the extra weight isn't healthy for you. Assuming that you are using food as a means to self-soothe, what healthy alternative means of self-soothing can you try (that aren't on her list of restrictions)?  The best way to change a bad habit is to replace it with a new healthy one.  

Can you live a healthy life, if you comply with her demands to not see friends, not go anywhere or do anything?  You can choose to not comply.  Sometimes it's easier to deal with someone else's issues than it is to address our own. Perhaps, you need to strengthen your boundaries. What advantages are there for you to continue to comply with her restrictions and to stay in this relationship?
  

probably the biggest part of what triggers me and makes me unable to stick to these techniques when we fight is her complete and absolute inability to be held accountable for her actions. There is ALWAYS someone else or something else at fault...  

Unfortunately, "Blame" problems come with the BPD package. The information at the link below could be helpful.

A THEORY OF THE PATTERN OF BLAME
bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271911.0

[livednlearned]

Validation is intended to prevent emotional arousal from heightening. It won't change how she thinks or what she thinks.

Her script that you want to cheat is a variation of her internal core belief system, woven deep into her personality, that predates you (perhaps jealousy that a parent focused on another child, or a parent who was too busy for her, or something like that) -- you're simply a screen she is projecting this onto. If you prove her projection wrong, you prove she is wrong, her entire self.

You cannot validate the invalid here. Sometimes it is best to validate what is (you feel afraid I will leave you) and then tell her, gently and firmly, that you will not discuss it further. And then be sure to not discuss it further, otherwise she will learn that a boundary (e.g. you will not discuss it further) can be easily rolled over, and next time you assert a boundary, she will push harder to knock it down, escalating conflict in the relationship. Needless to say, it's important to be firm and gentle about telling her you won't discuss it further. If you feel your temper flaring, tell her that you need to give yourself a time out, and that when you feel ready, you'll be back.

The book High Conflict Couple has excellent advice for what to do when a BPD partner repeatedly trips your trigger, causing you to react. Might be helpful to read so you can rely on some quick phrases when you feel yourself winding up in reaction to her.

People with BPD survived their environment (both perceived and real) by using everything they had to get parents/caregivers to give them what they needed in what felt to them like survival. Your GF has become a master at evoking a desired response from you (and others) -- she is testing whether you can be trusted, which can never be proven because the source of distrust is internal to her, something she cannot abide (without treatment).

That's where radical acceptance comes in. She cannot see the relationship through your eyes. She just can't. Accept that she experiences terrifying aloneness, inadequacy, helplessness, and that this is part of her core belief system. This is really hard. She uses her maladaptive coping mechanisms because they are all she has to protect her from fully experiencing the source of her pain.

It sounds like you have a hard time depersonalizing the attacks. If so, best to have a way to disarm the allegation without engaging in it.

"I won't talk about something that cannot be proven one way or another. Would you like to talk about doing xyz next weekend? I was thinking about going to see so-and-so. What do you think about doing that?"