Lying

[canttakemuchmore]

This is what my wife does a lot.  She blows up over nothing.  In the moment I try to be very reasonable and calm.  Within seconds she is raging and all reason is out the window.  Later after the rage is over she will bring up how unreasonable I was and how if only I had discussed it calmly with her we could have worked things out.  She changes the details of what happened, or says that I am lying about what happened, (trying to make myself sound reasonable which I almost always am!)  

I refuse to be believe her alternate reality, but how do you deal with someone who rewrites the truth to fit their agenda?  (I know we have someone running the country with this problem so it is something we all have to deal with now.) thanks

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[LightnessOfBeing]

Sorry you're having to deal with this. Many of us have been there. For me, this is the most frustrating, crazy-making aspect of life with a BPDSO. (As frustrating as it is to watch Trump do it, it's exponentially harder when the truth-rewriter is right in front of you.)

Mine does the exact same thing, from distortion to outright confabulation (e.g. "You screamed at me" when I objectively, provably, didn't raise my voice one iota, or "You said I'm a terrible person!" when what I actually said was "When you leave your mess behind in the kitchen, it makes it difficult for me to get my breakfast and lunch together for work." I've taken to having a recorder running in the background as often as is practical, to protect myself from the unjust accusations.

One of the most difficult parts of staying in a relationship with a pwBPD is the fact that we don't inhabit the same universe. For most Nons, facts create feelings - if you walk up to me and poke me with a sharp stick, I will feel pain. But for most pwBPD, it's the reverse: Feelings create facts. So if they feel pain, you must have caused it, and they will rewrite reality to fit how they feel, and insist vehemently on their version.

There's ample advice here on the boards, and in the lesson sections, about dealing with this aspect of BPD behavior; most of it boils down to the premise that we're supposed to just ignore the inherently unfair nature of being falsely accused and having reality distorted and instead validate their feelings. This can be done, and it's sometimes "successful" insofar as defusing the pwBPD's rage/tantruming, but the question I'm wrestling with is, how is that dynamic in any way authentic intersubjectivty? The pwBPD still believes their distortions, and I know what actually happened; thus we don't have a shared reality. I think of - just by way of broad analogy - a delusional person who believes the mailbox is an NSA agent about to attack them. I can talk to that person, sure; and if I 'validate' their belief, I can probably encourage them away from their plan to attack the mailbox with a baseball bat. But is that a genuine interpersonal connection? I don't think so. My concept of a real relationship is of two people who truly connect, who have some basic shared beliefs about each other and their interactions and reality itself - not just broad or abstract beliefs, but concrete and specific (e.g. pwBPD insists we "slammed the door in their face"; everyone in the room can attest that that didn't actually happen.)

Having a shared reality seems like a pretty basic prerequisite for authentic relationality. As such, it feels to me like there's a huge gap. The kind of relationality that I'm discovering occurs with someone wBPD feels... .superficial? Fake? I don't know. Whatever it is, it's not great


If you haven't chanced upon it yet, the 'lessons' section reminds us of what we have to do and be in a relationship with a pwBPD:

"Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have adult emotional skills - especially in times of stress. If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.

Dealing with a person with BPD is not a fair fight between equals, but rather a contest of wills where the SO may likely have a zero-sum mentality rather than a true desire to compromise and come to agreement (i.e., a win-win situation). People with BPD often feel attacked in any sort of argument - no matter how mundane - and thus will react defensively to most issues. The non basically has to be the adult and expect, especially pre-recovery, to be the "bigger person" most times. This entails taking it on the chin, so to speak. You have to willingly accept an unfair fight most times, because of the SO's tendency to be hyper-defensive and to see any criticism as a threat to their very core self."

This applies to the cognitive distortions/rewriting of truth; we just have to 'be the bigger person'. Bit like dealing with a toddler, really. Except that toddlers eventually learn and outgrow the bad behavior.

[isilme]

LightnessofBeaing seems to have covered it pretty well, but yes, it's something most of us have faced.  I think to simplify it, BPD is a lot about shame avoidance, and the stunted emotional maturity of a person with BPD means that accepting responsibility for their own actions is nigh impossible.  They need to avoid that all-encompassing shame, and will lie/re-write facts/justify/ret-con in any way possible to make it someone else's fault.  All to avoid shame.

H has jumped on me for what he called yelling at him, when it really amounted to what he 'knew" I was thinking.  He takes a question as a challenge.  If my face is in the wrong alignment for his mood, I must be thinking badly about him, causing the mood that existed even before he saw my face.

I've figured he really needs to spew out his emotions at a target, usually me as the most convenient, because his internal monologue won't work to let him think things through, or work things out.  Also, if he is in a bad mood, he may just want to fight, so he can turn around and say the mood was my fault in the first place.  So I do my best to simply not fight.  I steer clear when I can see this is going on, and try to not rise to the poking if I am late realizing he's trying to start a fight. 

[canttakemuchmore]

Thanks for the replies. I guess that is a normal BPD thing. Not having a shared reality is tough.
I also find that sometimes she just needs to berate me in order to feel better. After a good 20minutes of lecturing she seems to calm down. It's definitely abusive and uncalled for as it's usually about some abstract idea she has that I don't fulfill. But she calms down afterwards. Is that a BPD type of behavior too?

The worst is after couples counseling she has to rant for awhile which certainly doesn't make me want to go.

[Hmcbart]

I started journaling because of these behaviors.  I was getting beat up with things I'd said days and weeks after the fact.   If everything seemed to be fine after an argument I wouldn't think about it again. The a few days or weeks or even months later it was being thrown in my face and twisted to make me an angry person. 

I have 3 years worth of journal entries, over a 1,000 in all.  Now when she claims I said or acted a certain way, I pull up the date and see what actually happened. 

The only draw back so far is what I'm dealing with in MC.  The same therapist sees us both individually and for MC.  the therapist has said on more than one occasion that we both tell her the same things but they are exact opposites.  Therapist says that there is her side, my side, and somewhere in the middle is what really happen.  Says our point of view is warped by the past feelings and emotions we have been dealing with.  I told the therapist that was all well and good but I have 3 years worth of notes that are all mostly written down within minutes or house of when something happens because of this difference in our memories.  If what you're saying is true then I have 3 years worth of fiction.  I have over a 1,000 pages of made up memories.   Now I'm not a complete idiot but if that's true then I am bat-sh!t insane and you should lock me up. 

Long story short.  Yes, what I say and what she hears are completely different. 

[waverider]

The problem is words and details can be accurate, but they are cut and pasted into a different context. This is why they are often believable to others and make us question our own recollections at times.

The most toxic of lies are those that are refabrications of a true reality.

Unfortunately it takes a degree of of Acceptance to deal with them as they can be all pervasive, as in compulsive lying, and delusional. That is they appear incapable of doing or thinking otherwise. Debunking them involves a whole lot of stress and wasted energy on your behalf. It draws you into the problem.

Either way it is very draining to deal with. I treat most things my wife says as interesting rather than an accurate representation of anything, and would not make an important decisions based on her say so. At the same time I try to avoid being suspicious and trying to dig out the truth, as that is often futile and puts me in a negative attitude leading to escalations and further twisting of reality

[isilme]

Hmcbart - it almost sounds to me like your MC is possibly not acknowledging that reality is not evenly split between your two versions of the same event.  That kinda scares me about your MC, a little, because it does not sound like it offers you much real support.

I have in the past found myself somewhat gaslighted about how H relays events.  See, I have a pesky almost total recall for events.  My main issue is that most often, I disassociate from the feelings in the event, and honestly, I've found that I've built walls around lots of things in my life because delving into them is painful.  But the recall is there if I choose to engage it.  So when H insists he came up with an idea, or he did something I know I did, or accuses me of something I did NOT do, it's maddening.  I come here to log things as they happen, not so much for a journal (my father found my last journal and photo copied "juicy bits" and mailed to my and H's family when I was 19 and he kicked me out.  He wanted to prove I was a whore and deserved no safe harbor from him) which makes me feel unsafe, but for a place to write them down and I do revisit things at times to see what happened int he past to bring me here.  It helps. 

I have to agree with waverider that while I try not to engage in open distrust of things H says, and for the most part believe him day to day in regular conversation, there's a little alarm that may go off inside where I know I need to either not care what his perception is and not try to change it, or I may need to find another place to get information because his emotions seem to have taken control of the conversation and he may not be telling me a reality other people would also agree with.

[LightnessOfBeing]

Hmcbart
Therapist says that there is her side, my side, and somewhere in the middle is what really happen.

This is a really important issue. A T or MC's balanced view of the truth as being 'in the middle' of what two people's perspectives are is appropriate -- to situations between two people without personality disorders. But that's not what we're dealing with. Unless a practitioner specializes in personality disorders/is otherwise well versed in PDs or BPD, they can inadvertendly validate the pwBPD's cognitive distorions. When a therapist isn't aware of the high level of misreportage, truth-distortion, and outright confabulation/gaslighting that so many pwBPD reflexively engage in, they'll take the pwBPD's account at face value. 

In normal life, there's some accuracy to the idiom "There are two sides to every story." But the truth has only has one side: What actually happened. Stone cold reality.

Hmcbart, I can really relate to your tactic of journaling. Six months ago, I started having a digital recorder running in the background as often as possible when my BPDh and I were home at the same time. Even if I can't get him to listen to the evidence that disproves that I said this or that - or proves whatever he afterwards denies saying or doing - it gives me some scrap of peace to know that the actual reality is there, objectively, on tape. (I can't believe my life has come to this! My vision of marriage certainly never included the notion that I would have to run audio recorders to capture the confabulation and gaslighting of the person who is supposed to be my partner in life.) It sounds like maybe your weighty tome gives you a similar kind of comfort.

isilme
Hmcbart - it almost sounds to me like your MC is possibly not acknowledging that reality is not evenly split between your two versions of the same event.  That kinda scares me about your MC, a little, because it does not sound like it offers you much real support.

I wish more MCs were aware of this particular set of symptoms in pwBPD. I've had real difficulty finding one who does, and without that knowledge and background, I'm concerned that an MC could do more harm than good, by validating my BPDh's twisted truths and full-on confabulations. And heaven knows the last thing any wit's-end Non needs is invalidation from an MC. Ugh.

[Hmcbart]

Isilme & LOB

I agree with your synopsis totally.  I'm letting things play out as long as possible.  The last couple of times in MC, as soon as it sounded like the therapist didn't believe her side of things that's when it all unraveled.  I have given our therapist enough information to build a foundation without directly saying my wife has a PD or BPD.

  There have been some things that have helped the therapist believe what I tell her.  My wife has suffered from headaches that caused her to be pretty much bed ridden for 3-4 days each week.  It had been going on for about a year and was very tough on me and the kids.  I explained my thoughts on the headaches and when the therapist asked if I didn't believe my wife had them, I told her I absolutly believe she does, I just don't believe the cause.  After 6-8 doctor visits and she kept coming home saying allergies or fluid behind the ears.  The closest one doctor got was to say stress.   So once I explained this to our therapist and I told her I believe they are psychosomatic, she started to ask more question during my wife's sessions.  It also helped my case that my wife had canceled 3-4 appointments due to the headaches.  The psychosomatic term was brought up delicately during our MC session.  After a few days of my wife being upset and saying I didn't believe her and think she's making it all up, things died down. And miraculously her headaches have pretty much disappeared.  She still gets one every now and then but one or two a month versus 3-4 days a week, I'll take that all day long.

I reported back after a few weeks that our therapist had done what 6-8 doctors couldn't, she cured her headaches. 

The therapist is starting to get a better understanding of the dynamics of everything.  It's a long painful process but so far the approach has been better.  Had I pushed the PD thing at the beginning, my wife would have pushed back hard and then stopped therapy all together.  I explained a lot of this to the therapist. So far the therapist isn't over pushing.  The therapist may still think that both stories are wrong and in doing so adds validation to incorrect information. I understand the dynamics and that helps me stay level even if I'm not believed fully... .yet. 

It's all a waiting game.  The best part about the truth is it never changes.  The hardest part about lying is you have to remember what you said and when without screwing up the story.  Even pathological liers trio themselves up over the long haul.  I keep singing that song "Time is on my side, yes it is" by The Rolling Stones.  That and trying to focus on the big picture all while remaining somewhat sane but not completely crazy, mostly.

[Healthy88]

CTMM,

My H trips up his lies all the time. I used to have a spot on memory. Before I figured out and learned about BPD, I almost enjoyed watching him try to swirm out of one lie with another. I used to say something like: "the last time we discussed this you told me X, this time you are telling me Y and I am really confused now... .which is it". Sometimes it would go back to X, sometimes remain Y and other times I got Z (a whole new story). That became my way of letting him know, I knew he wasn't being honest without a fight. Once I learned that I couldn't believe much of what he says, I think I just sat back to see how far he would go to make up his story. They say that those who lie, often go into crazy detail to answer a simple question. H often does that too.

I did finally get him to admit he lies after years of it, which was incredibly validating to me. Matter of fact, he even went as far to state the only 2 people he does not lie to are our kids. Don't know if I believe him? I think it is great, if he has 2 people he can be honest with for now, anyway. By stating that, he also admitted he lies to everyone so I began to take it less personally, realizing it is his issue and has nothing to do with me.

He has also claimed he doesn't know why it hurts me so much so he is not aware of the damage it does in a r/s or how it sabotages him from having the love he desires. We have discussed it, but he is clueless. He doesn't really take responsibility for his destructiveness, but at least has admitted he does it (even if he doesn't see it as a problem).

He has walked out on me, at least twice. At one point, I asked him to leave and told him I did not want to live with him anymore until he could stop lying to me. I was stronger then and felt much better after he left that time. I think he was pretty depressed, lonely and maybe suicidal... .which I didn't know of. That was really the only boundary I have ever set with him.

It has made the lying situation less of a focus for me, now that we both know he does it. I am pretty calm if I catch him lying to me. The last time he absolutely couldn't face it and was going to have one of the kids lie to me to support him. I didn't let him take it that far. I had to spill my source that one time however, to let him know I knew he is still lying to me... .then he dropped it.

I have even gone as far as offering him a one sided open marriage. I hate the lying and was thinking once he can do what he wants with my permission, then he will finally have no reason whatsoever to lie to me about anything ever again and told him that was how I felt about it. Of course, then I don't care about him. No, I just don't really care to be lied to anymore and would love to be in an honest r/s.

[canttakemuchmore]

So having read a lot about validating the feelings of the pwBPD and being empathic I am going to give it a try. My worry is that it will be very hard to be empathic and have great body language etc. listening to someone tell lies about you or something that happened. I will try to detach and validate the feeling not the truth but it sounds hard. Anyone have success with this?  It sounds like some people can do it.

[bananas2]

Major problem in my relationship with BPD hub has been lying/gaslighting. One of the reasons we put our MC on hold was due to the therapist being unable to help us with issues bc counselor stated that there seems to be "differing realities." Of course, I know what the real facts are, but there is no way for the MC to know that or address them. So we decided to each do individual therapy, and if that goes well (he makes progress with his his DBT & I work on my strategies), we will revisit MC in the future. This seems to be working for us so far.

For most Nons, facts create feelings - if you walk up to me and poke me with a sharp stick, I will feel pain. But for most pwBPD, it's the reverse: Feelings create facts. So if they feel pain, you must have caused it, and they will rewrite reality to fit how they feel, and insist vehemently on their version.

Lightness - Fantastic analogy about the sharp stick. I have to keep remembering that one.

CTMM - Yes, it is very hard to be empathetic when you know someone is outright lying to you. I am just starting to work on this myself, and, like anything, it takes practice. I think I am having some success with it bc I finally got to a point where I realized that always confronting my BPD hub about his lies was just making things worse & causing escalation. I knew that I had to change my approach in order to break the cycle of conflict. The hardest part of it for me is trying not to get resentful about having to change my behaviors when he is the one with the disorder. It's getting a bit easier now bc after practicing staying calm, detaching, etc., I'm realizing it is benefiting my own mental health & our relationship.

[Hmcbart]

Cant,

I have been able to be empathetic but I still struggle with detaching.  I wear my emotions on my sleeve.  If I'm upset it's noticeable and my wife can read me like a book (usually a Dr. Seuss as I'm not that complicated).  I either detach completely and I'm void of all emotions or they are out there for the world to see.  I am a completely different person at work usually.  I am more relaxed because I don't have worry that everything I say or do will get twisted and used against me later.  Sadly I have less stress being at work than at home.

[canttakemuchmore]

Thanks, like the quote about the sharp stick. That is exactly how it goes. The memory is changed to match the emotion. Often she mishears something and flips out. There is no explaining that I didn't say that. Gonna work on the validating and empathy. She likes the idea so maybe it will help.