Oh Lordy What a Weekend

[lookingforanswer]

I haven't posted here in a long time. A lot has happened.

I have been seeing a therapist to help with issues with my H. Most days I feel like I'm going out of my mind so I needed someone who understands these issues to help me.

After many sessions, what I thought was BPD she thinks is covert narcisssim. Anyone else have this change of diagnosis?

So he was caught cheating several years ago. I am still dealing with the fallout of this and feel like I am suffering every moment of the day. Nothing anyone can say is getting me out of this state. Despite what the marriage counselor implied, I did not cause him to cheat on me. Seriously, I couldn't believe she even said that. I think the exact words were "you need to figure out what your role was" If by role she means that I married someone who was completely f'ed up but I refused to acknowledge it, then yes I take responsibility for that. What the heck? Anyway, now after totally losing all respect for him and trying to work it out for the kids, finances, and our religious beliefs, he has now started the following:

1. Acting "normal" in front of the kids and other people.
2. Switching his personality to when we are alone. Either silence or screaming at me. The newest one is that he told me that I "ruined the relationship". I am completely baffled. He cheats on me, ignores his family for over a decade while he pursues his own interests and now "I" ruined the relationship.

Anyone else have someone who is diagnosed with covert narcissim and what did you do to save your sanity?

[flourdust]

Well, NPD and BPD have a lot of overlapping characteristics, and it's common here to see a dual diagnosis or a diagnosis of one predominant disorder but with traits of the other.

Is your husband in any kind of therapy? Is your therapist helping you with skills or strategies to try to manage your situation?

[lookingforanswer]

My husband went to therapy after the initial "incident" but left. He tried 3 individual therapists less than 5 times each and then the marriage counselor who was useless.

My therapist is helping if nothing else to help confirm the diagnosis. Lots of raised eyebrows when I tell her about what is going on with him. Truthfully, from what I read, there is nothing you can do with these covert narcissists so I'm truly just trying to get by.

He really needs to be in therapy, but the therapist said no amount of cajoling will make him go. He is going to have to hit rock bottom and decide to do it for himself--that's what it's all about anyway right? Himself?

[BeagleGirl]

I'm so sorry you are going through this. 

My husband has a BPD and DPD diagnosis.  I agree that many of these personality disorders have overlapping indicators and I can see how someone would drift between diagnoses depending on what "symptoms" they are currently displaying.

A couple thoughts that I will preface by saying that I cheated on my husband 3 years ago, so I have some of the flip side perspective of your situation from the affair side of things, but have some of your perspective from the dealing with a BPD side.

While marital environment can be a factor in a cheater justifying their actions THE CHOICE TO HAVE AN AFFAIR IS THE CHEATER'S RESPONSIBILITY AND IS NEVER THE FAULT OF THE BETRAYED. I'm not saying that it might not have been less tempting to cheat if my husband were addressing some of the behaviors that left me feeling unloved and unlovable.  I'm also sure that strong marriages are less prone to affairs.  At the end of the day, though, it was my decision to cheat.  I could have handled my dissatisfaction with my marriage in 100 better ways, but I chose to do something destructive, not only to my marriage, but also to my husband personally, my children, my affair partner, his family, and myself.  I believe that it is only because I firmly believe all that I've stated that my husband has any reason to trust me again.  If you ever go back to that marriage therapist, I would firmly state that you are willing to consider your role in the unhealthy nature of your marriage, but you will not take on responsibility for a decision your husband made to have an affair.

Second thought:  I have been advised to not take part in marriage counseling until my husband has shown willingness to address the BPD/DPD and any other issues that prevent him from coming to the marriage counseling as a whole human being.  Not that any of us will ever be perfect, but by focusing on marriage counseling you send the message that there is equal responsibility for the mess and it allows the unhealthy (unhealtheir?) spouse to divert attention from their contribution and ask the healthy (healthier?) spouse to share responsibility for something outside the non's control.  I tried marriage counseling many times with my hwBPD.  When it became a clear pattern for him to sit somewhat quietly through the session, seem to agree with the therapist, and then emotionally and verbally attack me for the 30 minute drive home, I decided to stop any joint counseling sessions until he shows willingness and progress in addressing his abusive behaviors, etc.

Third thought:  TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.  On top of the colossal feat of strength of living with a NPD/BPD/?PD husband, you have just been through one of the most painful experiences a human being can go through.  The impact of an affair on the betrayed is tremendous and long lasting.  Add to that trying to maintain a sense of normalcy for your children and I consider it amazing and encouraging that you have the strength to reach out to us here on the message board.  My prayers are with you.  If you need any ideas on self care and healing, please let us know. 

               
BeagleGirl

[lookingforanswer]

Oh my goodness. I'm almost at a loss as to what to say. Let me just say this: I don't understand people who cheat on their spouses knowing what destruction it will cause their family. I really don't understand it. That's all I can say. It is a choice, not something that just happens.

I am taking good care of myself. Exercising regularly, meeting with a therapist, eating the best I can and surrounding myself with good people. Nothing will change the devastation that he caused. Nothing. I have panic attacks daily, avoid situations that remind me of the affair, insomnia, depression-- I am changed forever. This was not a learning experience of any kind. To me, it is the same as having a person close to you murdered. Someone could have controlled themselves, but they didn't so now the survivors have to live with their careless actions.

Thanks for the info on the marriage counseling. That is 100% what went on with him. I would be attacked not just for 30 minutes but for several days. Then, when it was time to meet with the counselor again, he would become very congenial for two days prior. I believe he thought I would forget everything else that happened the previous week. It was almost comical.

I did consider our marriage "strong" for whatever that's worth. We had our issues, but I thought there was mutual respect and a strong sense of bonding between us. I guess I was wrong because a NPD only cares about himself and the rest was just a facade to get me to do what he needed. Did his behavior drive me to frustration? Of course it did. But he was my husband and he was the best in my eyes. Didn't need to be perfect but I thought he had the best intentions for his family. I must have been delusional, because I really didn't see it.

[HelenaHandbasket]

I am so, so sorry you are going through this.  My brother is in the midst of a chaotic marriage with a pwBPD (that's what brought me to this group, because I'm his primary source of advice and emotional support and I wanted to be informed), and I know it's doing horrible damage to his self esteem as well.  I hope you can repair that damage and come to understand that your husband's choices are about him, not you.

I was in an abusive relationship when I was younger. I don't know if my ex had BPD, but in retrospect I wouldn't be surprised. He was narcissistic, utterly self-involved, and prone to horrible depression that he would drink to alleviate. His main method of easing his pain was to take it out on me. When you described your husband agreeing with the marriage counselor and then attacking you verbally for days, it sounded SO much like what I went through with my ex.  We never went to couples therapy, but sometimes friends or family members would try to intervene with him and he would agree with them and then turn on me horribly once they left.  I learned to beg my friends and family not to try to talk to him about the abuse because it would make it so much worse.

The thing about abuse, whether it's physical, sexual, or emotional, is that it erodes our own sense of self. And sometimes you can't see it happening until it's gone really far and done damage that is tough to undo. I have a wonderful husband now, thank God, and a wonderful marriage. But if I'm being honest, I have to admit that 20 years later I am still struggling with the scars my ex left on my psyche. Like your husband, my ex was initially loving and charming and I thought he genuinely cared about me and wanted to make me happy. Then his mental health issues started to break through that veneer, and all hell broke loose. I was left wondering, why didn't I see this before? And worse, why did I allow myself to be treated this way? That shame and confusion took a long time to overcome. 

One thing I would definitely advise you to do is lean on your support system. Try not to let this situation isolate you, because when we are isolated we can lose touch with what is normal and healthy. We can lose touch with what is and isn't okay. Do things you enjoy, things you're good at and can be proud of yourself about, and spend time with people who value you.  It sounds like you are already taking steps to look after yourself, and I'm so glad to hear that.

You are going through something really hard. Give yourself a break if you don't handle it perfectly, because nobody would. I'm glad you're seeing a therapist; have you talked to him/her about your panic attacks?

Sending you lots of hugs.  Hang in there.

[lookingforanswer]

Thanks so much everyone.

I believe this needs to stop. I'm keeping myself sane by looking at ways to combat this problem. I'm contacting my state rep (and I urge you to do the same) to propose legislation for the following:

1. Screening at yearly checkups by a therapist starting early (5 yo) to catch any emotional issues before they become full blown mental illnesses. They want to stop the stigma of mental illness? Well an ad campaign is not going to fix it. They are going to have to make it the norm by starting when the kids are young.

2. Civil action against the person involved with your spouse. Here's the latest precedent www.people.com/music/r-kelly-sued-extramarital-affair-allegations/

What do you guys think? My brother is heavily involved with the state legislature and agrees with me on this.

[formflier]

 I have been advised to not take part in marriage counseling until my husband has shown willingness to address the BPD/DPD and any other issues that prevent him from coming to the marriage counseling as a whole human being.  Not that any of us will ever be perfect, but by focusing on marriage counseling you send the message that there is equal responsibility for the mess and it allows the unhealthy (unhealtheir?) spouse to divert attention from their contribution and ask the healthy (healthier?) spouse to share responsibility for something outside the non's control.  

Hey... .this is an area of debate on bpdfamily.  I generally come out on the side that says go to MC, even if it is not going well.  

I "suffered" through most of a year of "biblical counseling" with my wife  My boundary setting was what got me "kicked out" because I "didn't have a learners attitude".  Those that follow me understand that's the short version... .  ... .polite version as well.

Anyway... .it was still a positive experience for me in the sense that I have a much clearer view of myself, who I am, what I will tolerate, what I believe about scripture, how I interpret scripture... .etc etc

I also clearly understand through hindsight where the MC went "wrong" and that if such a thing ever happens again... .that I stand up for myself and offer a choice to correct the situation or that I will be leaving the situation.

Anyway... .even if MC is a place where you "just" communicate, even if you don't agree or they (the pwBPD don't "get it", I'm still a fan of going.

Caveat:  If abuse shows up... .boundary time.  MC should be completely supportive of boundary against abuse, especially any they see.  With the understanding that MC may allow some emotional abuse to continue for a session or two in order to confirm a pattern or one persons unwillingness to change.  Remember... they've never seen this couple in action before... .it takes time to understand the complex patterns.

A boundary setting MC resulted in me hearing about SWOE and led me to this site.  My wife danced around the room, wagged her finger at both of us and ran from the room after MC set a boundary.  MC "failed" in the sense of marriage getting better, but I certainly learned a lot that helped me make wise decisions. (one of those things people that don't understand BPD would find hard to believe... .most on this sight can visualize this happening)

I got to the place where many times I drove separately.  That allowed me to process things my way... .and my wife to process things her way.  

Being in a car with a dysregulated pwBPD is not a good idea.

Anyway... .I understand and respect there are other views.  I believe there can be other positive outcomes from MC... .other than the marriage "being fixed" or "getting better".  Even if the "only" thing you gain is a clearer understanding of what you face, that will help you make wiser decisions.

FF getting down from soapbox now... . 

FF

[BeagleGirl]

FormFlier,
Thanks for providing the "alternate view".  Actually, I agree with everything you said and experienced.  I'm glad I went to marriage counseling and think I will be willing to go again, in time.

I think the understanding of the MC makes a big difference, as well as the expectations of the non.  All of my marriage counselors have been Christian.  Some were pastors who provided short term counsel during "rough patches", one was licensed in Biblical Counseling.  The most effective (IMO) were/are those who have been licensed therapists who see faith and scripture as guiding principles, but also glean wisdom from "secular" practices.  That's the type of counselor I'm seeing now.

I like the idea of driving separately to and from appointments.  That eased some of the post MC abuse because I wasn't trapped in a car with him, but I still faced the post MC blow up, silent treatment, marathon problem dissection sessions (my fault, as I tried to "help him understand" what I was feeling and why his behavior was wrong), parroted apology/I'll do better promises, make-up sex, emotional distancing, tension building, overtly hurtful act by BPDh cycle.  Amazingly, we managed to fit all of this into a span of 7-10 days so we were primed for the next MC session.

I think understanding that MC is not going to fix him and that I'm primarily there to get a clearer perspective of what is going on and how I can cope/deal with it makes MC more productive for me.  I reached a point where I didn't feel the need/desire to have him in the room to achieve that.  Our MC is now our individual counselor and, since we have given her permission to share anything related to ourselves with our spouse, she brings up topics/observed behavior that she feels are relevant.  She watched the dynamics of our relationship for almost 2 years before we stopped seeing her together.

[formflier]

  The most effective (IMO) were/are those who have been licensed therapists who see faith and scripture as guiding principles, but also glean wisdom from "secular" practices.  That's the type of counselor I'm seeing now.

Totally agree.  My current Psychologist is a PhD, HSPP... .and also a devout Christian.

  but I still faced the post MC blow up, silent treatment, marathon problem dissection sessions (my fault, as I tried to "help him understand" what I was feeling and why his behavior was wrong), parroted apology/I'll do better promises, make-up sex, emotional distancing, tension building, overtly hurtful act by BPDh cycle.  Amazingly, we managed to fit all of this into a span of 7-10 days so we were primed for the next MC session.

Do you believe you are sure enough with you boundaries now to where this would be something you can protect yourself from. 

He can still blow up... .you can be somewhere else... .etc etc.

  Our MC is now our individual counselor and, since we have given her permission to share anything related to ourselves with our spouse, she brings up topics/observed behavior that she feels are relevant.  She watched the dynamics of our relationship for almost 2 years before we stopped seeing her together.

This is incredibly valuable.  Pure gold.  Gives me lots of hope for wise guidance and decisions for your r/s.  And if this is the person telling you "not now" for MC... .then I would take that guidance very wise counsel. 

Again... .sorry to OP for the hijack... .   

FF

[BeagleGirl]

Thanks so much everyone.

I believe this needs to stop. I'm keeping myself sane by looking at ways to combat this problem. I'm contacting my state rep (and I urge you to do the same) to propose legislation for the following:

1. Screening at yearly checkups by a therapist starting early (5 yo) to catch any emotional issues before they become full blown mental illnesses. They want to stop the stigma of mental illness? Well an ad campaign is not going to fix it. They are going to have to make it the norm by starting when the kids are young.

2. Civil action against the person involved with your spouse. Here's the latest precedent www.people.com/music/r-kelly-sued-extramarital-affair-allegations/

What do you guys think? My brother is heavily involved with the state legislature and agrees with me on this.

Lookingforanswer,
I am glad that you are finding ways to combat and hopefully prevent others from suffering the pain that you are in. 

As someone who has been the offending party in an affair, I don't feel qualified to comment on pursuing civil actions against a spouses affair partner.  I will tell you something else you may want to consider that may help in addition to pursuing legislation.

When I decided to leave my affair, I called upon and was surrounded by women who had been betrayed by their husbands.  I knew who they were because it was discretely known that they were the women to call on if a woman was betrayed by her husband and needed the support and guidance only someone who has suffered that kind of pain can give.  It may seem odd that they were also the first women who came to mind when I was the one who had betrayed my husband, but I thank God for them.  They were the women who continue to hold me accountable and they have also been fundamental in my healing.  When I felt the desire to write my affair partner's wife a letter of apology, they were the ones who questioned my purpose and (IMO) made it ultimately something I could do for her and not just to relieve my guilt. 

I can not express how much I wish that I could say that understanding their pain kept me from inflicting that same pain on another woman.  I still ask myself how I could have done what I did, even knowing women who had been wounded that way.  The only answer I can come up with is that I was incredibly selfish.  I do know that their love and forgiveness and willingness to smack me upside the head when needed have helped me become someone who will NEVER do that kind of harm again and seeks to help others in whatever way I can.

Again, I don't feel that I have any right to speak into your situation and I apologize if what I have said has caused any additional pain.  I just wanted to share how women who have been through what you are going through have changed my life.  Their willingness to share their pain and still love me through it has, I hope, resulted in my becoming something of value to those around me.