Psychopath Free: recovering from emotionally abusive relationships with narcissists, sociopaths, and other toxic people.

[Lalathegreat]

My cheerful weekend reading is a book my friend has given me: "Psychopath Free: recovering from emotionally abusive relationships with narcissists, sociopaths, and other toxic people."

So once again, as when originally discovering BPD, I find myself nodding along thinking - oh yeah, that fits, and that fits, and that fits... .

And I find it unsettling. I find it unsettling because of one key factor. The premise of this book is that the havoc wreaked on the victims of psychopaths is cold, calculated, and intentional.

Not that BPD is a cakewalk, but there has always been a small amount of comfort in feeling these behaviors stemmed from his disorder and his own pain and emotional disregulation. That as abusive and painful as they are, they are at least not planned and calculated.

And now I sit here wondering if I've been wrong all along. If he really has planned my destruction and is just shopping for my replacement so that he can discard me like so much garbage.

Thoughts? Have you ever found yourself wondering about this? Did it make a difference in how you chose to move forward?

Sometimes I think there might be such a thing as too much research - the more you know, the more you just end up with more questions.

[Herodias]

They can be a bit of several personality types across a spectrum. It's common to feel that way. My ex actually told me he had a plan for me! I see BPD, NPD and ASD in him. The end result is still the same, but I think you feel a bit more compassion for full BPD persons. It's hard to feel bad for a psychopath even though they can't help but be who they are. It took a long time for me to realize it doesn't matter the label. You were put through hell either way. Try and feel compassion for yourself and work on you. By studying them you take the focus off of the work you need to do on your own well being and how to move forward. Believe me, I'm still fascinated by what I have learned and how the behaviors are predictable. Just try and focus on how you want to live.

[Keepingreal]

Hi Lala -

I remember that a couple of years ago, my pwBPD and I broke up for the second time (he was undiagnosed at the time but had been diagnosed as bipolar), and he moved out for 6 weeks. I spent a lot of that time throwing myself into work and developed a close bond with one of our secretaries. In summer, no one is around (university), so she and I spent literally 1 hour + a day talking about our partnership/marriages. At one point, she said, very gently, "I think your partner is a psychopath," and she recommended that I read exactly that book.

I remember feeling a little offended (by proxy, for my then-estranged partner) but did read the book and saw a lot of traits in my partner that probably led my secretary to recommend it to me. One year later, he received a dx from a top-ranked expert of BPD and I cried from relief, which baffled my pwBPD completely. In part, I was relieved that we actually knew what we were dealing with and in part, the diagnosis allowed me to "rule out" psychopathy.

Now, after two weeks since he broke up with me -- via *text message* (I am never leaving that detail out because it still crushes me) -- I can appreciate personally, and not just intellectually, that much like Herodias said, each of these disorders exist along a spectrum and that the clinical construction of the diagnostic criteria is always a "best guess" scenario not only because of limited knowledge of mental health but also because we are complex creatures -- it's very likely that your partner can have primary dx of BPD and show characteristics that are most commonly associated with psychopathy, or NPD, or a slew of other disorders or diseases. This is not particularly helpful, but maybe, over time, it can be a little freeing too.

To echo several others on the board in the last few days: I hate BPD.

[Lalathegreat]

Thanks guys!

Keepinreal - you know exactly what I'm thinking/feeling then. I logically understand that the end result is the same. I am enmeshed in a relationship that has become abusive, toxic, and in many ways unbearable. That is true no matter what his diagnosis is. But it's the "intention" behind the actions that I'm having such a hard time reconciling. If he is emotionally desperate and out of control that feels very different then if he's over there thinking: "Well, this thing has almost run it's course, I'd better start shopping for my next lay and then make sure I dump lala in the most horrifyingly painful way possible so that I can completely destroy her spirit. Wouldn't that be fun!"

It hasn't FELT like that - I do feel like the fear of abandonment has been crippling and real, but I can't deny that the behaviors heavily discussed in the book also fit. It makes me furious to think that he could be pulling my strings like a puppet and ENJOYING it. If I could conclusively determine that was the case I would be absolutely DONE.

And if I can say that, why am I not DONE anyways when the impact on me emotionally and spiritually is probably the same anyways? Ugh... .what is wrong with me?

I'm curious about your story. How long were you together? How many times did you break up/recycle?

Hang in there, thank you for your response!

[Keepingreal]

Lala -

Thank you for your lovely -- and timely -- response, as I was just reflecting on your post, and my response, and thinking "Man, I don't know her, her complexity, or her partner, but thank goodness for this site, or I would totally be losing my mind these last 12 days."

Until I went on this site, I never knew about the concept of "recycling," but I remember feeling frequently embarrassed by how often we were "having problems" or "taking a break" or "renegotiating our relationship," all while I hid how bad things were *for me* and while disclosing only the worst of it -- the mood swings, the cheating, the lying, the blaming, the rages, the dissociation -- to a couple of trusted friends and, eventually, my mother. I haven't tracked fully, but I would guess that over the almost six years of our partnership, recycling happened probably four times, not including this seemingly-definitive breakup.

Complicating all those periods further, in addition to him not having the correct diagnosis for years; not even disclosing his "mild" "bipolar" until we had been together six months; having to spend what equals to three years and god knows how many thousand dollars long-distance because he moved to Nashville (2000 miles away) for grad school after we had been together a year, yet still traveled monthly on my crap-at-the-time salary and spent all breaks in "our real home" (my place), he also identified as gay when I met him.

We were instant best friends when we met in grad school (his MA program, my PhD program); he made me feel like the most special, brilliant, and interesting person in the world. I opened up to him in ways that I likely would not have had he identified as heterosexual, though he did tell me that he had slept with "many women" in his 20's. We both expressed attraction to one another, then became physically intimate to an intoxicating degree. He said that he realized, for once and all, that he was bisexual / queer. That worked for me -- I am liberal and a feminist / queer advocate. We both said that we were both in love with one another and one another's best friends as well within a year, when the long-distance period began. Within that period, he cheated on me at least four times, always with men, ranging from 19 (which made me nauseous, as it was a freshman at the university at which he was teaching) to probably 40's. Always, he begged, pleaded, promised to get help, told me that I was the "love of his life" and that he "couldn't live without me." And now, I wonder, given the sudden breakup *text* after everything I have put my all into making work, whether I have already been replaced by a man or boy.

Is he a psychopath? I don't know. Maybe we can't know. Sometimes, when he raged at me, (before I found this site and _Walking on Eggshells_), I would say to him, "it seems like you get off on this." And he would swear that it gave him no pleasure. But I could tell, looking in his eyes, that in the moment, he gloried in hurting me; even when I knew that he would "return to me," hours or a day later, he was like a lost little boy who didn't understand what had happened. Maybe it's some blurred line between psychopathy and the dissociation of BPD? I don't know.

There are many things subsequent in terms of timeline; this is merely a snapshot, perhaps, of the facets that are most pressing in my head right now.

Apologies for the length, Lala -- but I do understand the crushing pain of not knowing whether or not he had the capacity to consent fully to his own choices to hurt you. Regardless, I am so sorry you are going through this. We don't deserve it.

[Lalathegreat]

I am also incredibly grateful for the advice and emotional support that I have recieved here... .somebody said at one point (I think it was BeagleGirl?) that we can only know each other so well in this "anonymous" forum, but I feel that in some ways we truly know each other better than most of the people we put smiles on for in the "real" world each day.

Thank you for sharing your story with me. I also wasn't familiar with the term "recycle" until I came here. And honestly, I'm not sure how many we've actually had. Does it count if he "breaks up" with words but not in actions and we're back to our usual routine within days? Does it count if he kicks me out of his apartment but doesn't break up verbally and we're back to our routine the next day? Does it count if he's never asked me to return his housekey? We seem to have a few things that are loaded with "hidden" meaning. One is the drawer where I keep my belongings at his place, the other is his key. Whenever things aren't going well threats are made surrounding these things - "get your ___ out of my drawer" or "give me back my goddamned key". (And if he ever suspects that I'm trying to "empty" my drawer or that I might return his key he lashes out.)  Does it count as a breakup if things are said verbally but neither of those issues are touched? So much of what I find baffling about this relationship is how much is going on for pwBPD that is NOT said. He complains about MY lack of clear communication, but I swear to god sometimes when he gets going I cannot wrap my head around what he is saying. Words are coming out of his mouth, but none of it makes sense. He eludes to conversations and actions and feelings that I don't remember participating in, doing, or having. He refers to a future that we never discussed. He rages about my abandonment even as I sit reading texts that clearly communicate to me his request for "space".

But I digress.

I'm sorry for what you are going through. You are clearly very invested in your pwBPD and 6 years is a long time to be riding this rollercoaster. I will be thinking about you and your situation and hope that you will keep coming here to share.
 

[Larmoyant]

Thoughts? Have you ever found yourself wondering about this? Did it make a difference in how you chose to move forward?

Hi Lalathegreat, I used to wonder about this too and have since learned that there’s a lot of crossover between the various disorders. Like others my ex has traits of BPD/npd and aspd. My therapist was convinced he’s antisocial, yet I saw the BPD traits and it made me feel sorry for him, especially the fear of abandonment. At times, I got far too caught up with thinking he couldn’t help what he did when what was really important was the effect of the behaviours on my life. I still feel compassion towards him, but have turned the focus where it needs to be. Getting my life back together again. Here’s a thread from last year that helped me process whether he meant to hurt me. Hopefully, it will be useful for you.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=293386.0

[flourdust]

Be careful not to believe everything you read, perhaps? The author isn't any kind of mental health professional. Rolling everything that has bothered him in his relationships up into one big scary label sounds more like the kind of painful venting that we get from some new members here, when they arrive raw with pain (and lacking much perspective).

The question for each member here is not what the diagnosis is but what the behaviors are and how they affect you ... .and can you learn to live with them or do you need to detach?

[Grey Kitty]

If you "need" to call him a psychopath to give yourself the strength to break up with him, don't let me stop you... .but I don't see that as something that will help you outside that use as a short term crutch, so to speak.

But it's the "intention" behind the actions that I'm having such a hard time reconciling. If he is emotionally desperate and out of control that feels very different then if he's over there thinking: "Well, this thing has almost run it's course, I'd better start shopping for my next lay and then make sure I dump lala in the most horrifyingly painful way possible so that I can completely destroy her spirit. Wouldn't that be fun!"

At some level, you can never know who a person is, and what they are thinking. So that horrible, evil intention is possible, and could be very well hidden from you.

I do know of people who are very manipulative, and are aware that they are lying and manipulating and messing with people. (Not too many--I don't enjoy such people!) The ones I'm aware of don't hide it all that well--I would expect you to see it clearly in him after being in a relationship as long as you have with him. I don't mean you would catch his lies and deception of you, although you might. I mean you would have seen him doing it to other people in his life, or other people he had shut out of his life.

You don't mention him doing "evil" things like that to others; If it is happening and you just didn't mention it, correct me now!

What I've seen far more often is people who are really hurting, and really blaming somebody else for the hurt, and lashing out at the other person, genuinely caught up in their own feelings, perhaps that the other person "deserved it" or "brought it upon themself"... .but as you said already:

I logically understand that the end result is the same.

I also wasn't familiar with the term "recycle" until I came here. And honestly, I'm not sure how many we've actually had. Does it count if [... .] We seem to have a few things that are loaded with "hidden" meaning. One is the drawer where I keep my belongings at his place, the other is his key. [... .]  Whenever things aren't going well threats are made surrounding these things

What he's doing sounds more like a threat to breakup (aka an attempt to control you) and a fight than actually breaking up.

But what matters is how you respond to it, not what you call it. You sound like you aren't very impressed with these efforts anymore, and aren't getting all that afraid of it anymore. Is that correct? And if so, has he tried to escalate it to get more of a reaction from you out of it?

He complains about MY lack of clear communication, but I swear to god sometimes when he gets going I cannot wrap my head around what he is saying. Words are coming out of his mouth, but none of it makes sense.

Yep. All the more reason not to be around when he gets going like that! He will get through that mood eventually, and be much better company later!

[Skip]

This test might help.

In the past, I don't know that we have had a member here that had a partner that qualified.

The Hare PCL-R contains two parts, a semi-structured interview and a review of the subject's file records and history. During the evaluation, the clinician scores 20 items that measure central elements of the psychopathic character. The items cover the nature of the subject's interpersonal relationships; his or her affective or emotional involvement; responses to other people and to situations; evidence of social deviance; and lifestyle. The material thus covers two key aspects that help define the psychopath: selfish and unfeeling victimization of other people, and an unstable and antisocial lifestyle.

The twenty traits assessed by the PCL-R score are:

    glib and superficial charm
    grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
    need for stimulation
    pathological lying
    cunning and manipulativeness
    lack of remorse or guilt
    shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
    callousness and lack of empathy
    parasitic lifestyle
    poor behavioral controls
    sexual promiscuity
    early behavior problems
    lack of realistic long-term goals
    impulsivity
    irresponsibility
    failure to accept responsibility for own actions
    many short-term marital relationships
    juvenile delinquency
    revocation of conditional release
    criminal versatility

The interview portion of the evaluation covers the subject's background, including such items as work and educational history; marital and family status; and criminal background. Because psychopaths lie frequently and easily, the information they provide must be confirmed by a review of the documents in the subject's case history.
Results

When properly completed by a qualified professional, the PCL-R provides a total score that indicates how closely the test subject matches the "perfect" score that a classic or prototypical psychopath would rate. Each of the twenty items is given a score of 0, 1, or 2 based on how well it applies to the subject being tested. A prototypical psychopath would receive a maximum score of 40, while someone with absolutely no psychopathic traits or tendencies would receive a score of zero. A score of 30 or above qualifies a person for a diagnosis of psychopathy. People with no criminal backgrounds normally score around 5. Many non-psychopathic criminal offenders score around 22.

[Herodias]

After reading that, I would say my ex is a psychopath! He has all of those qualifications!  I always thought he had extreme emotions but now I believe I read him wrong. He told me he could manipulate me and he could manipulate his girlfriend so in my case he knew what he was doing! I watched him text message her in front of me, laughing with glee playing games with her and arguing with her. Getting her to say it's me not you. Then he suddenly realized maybe he shouldn't have been sharing that with me! I remember looking at him like he was some kind of alien. I know he knows what he is doing. The scary thing is he managed to get the current gf to move to a remote home out in the sticks in the mountains- quit her job and have a child! He tried to do that with me in a different way. I didn't do it. Is he happier? Probably- she is easier to control. I'm scared to death for her, but she had a huge lesson to learn for cheating on her husband with mine. For all I know the child will be another psycho.  Choose to believe what you need to to get yourself out. Don't feel bad- we were fooled. Anyone could have been- except people who have strict rules on how someone behaves and what they will accept from someone else. I suggest you write down a list of what it is that you want in a relationship and refer back to it. Every detail. Do not sway. My old list was brown hair, blue eyes and health insurance- I got that! My new list is really really long! Lol