Attempt to set boundary totally flopped

[MrRight]

Well I thought I was doing well yesterday morning using lots of positive validating talk with my wife yesterday morning. Seemed to put her in an excellent mood.

As I said in my previous posts - I have been struggling with her to protect my working time (I work from home) - after dropping off S14 at school we come home and she tends to extend our coffee session in the morning and I have to wait for her more or less to decide when I start work. Any attempt to decide this for myself usually ends in a row.

Well we had a our coffee yesterday and it was 11 AM - we needed to leave the house at 2.30 - I am way way behind in my work and she knows this. The time I get to work is insufficient and we are in debt. I sell mail order - yesterday was 27th and I am working on orders placed on 21st - that's how far behind I am. But at 11 she says:

"I know you are work work work - but maybe we'll research together some universities online for S14 for 15 minutes"

I'm not happy with this - but knowing refusal will lead to a blazing row I agree.

After 20 minutes I am starting to shake inside - thinking about how much work I have to do etc. I think the session is drawing to a close and she suddenly opens 6 new tabs.

"I agree we should do this research"  I say "but perhaps we could agree a time to do it later or tomorrow as I have a load of work to get through before we go"

She looks at me "not much longer" she says - we look through a few more pages - then she suddenly gets up and tells me to go to hell. She stamps upstairs and slams her door. I work for 30 minutes and hear her start raging upstairs - accusing me of trading my son for my lousy business etc - she starts screaming at one point. I try to tell her we can do it later etc - there is time for everything but she goes on raging. then comes into my office and starts wrecking - smashing keyboard etc - dog attacks me - violence starts - chair thrown. She starts screaming I prefer this mayhem to working - well so be it. I'm going to tell S14 what a lousy father you are etc. I try to leave the house but she gets in my way. Eventually we have to leave and drive to school during which my arm and legs are beaten with a mobile phone.

"Was it worth it?" she keeps asking - a twisted smile on her face.

Exhausted, later on I cave in, surrender - I am afraid she beats me every time. I dont have her stamina for a long term conflict.

So how do you deal with this? What could I have done - what should I have done?

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[HelenaHandbasket]

I am very concerned about you--does she physically assault you like this regularly? Have you considered calling the police when she starts raging like this?

From what I've read, the validation/boundary setting tools can take time to work. In the book _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ the authors say that once you start using these techniques, it can sometimes get worse before it gets better. I don't know if that's a comfort or not.

But remember that you absolutely have to protect your physical safety. Does she ever hit the kids?

[Tattered Heart]

Hi Mr. Right,

Tough situation. Setting boundaries can be really scary, especially knowing that it could lead to physical violence. You did pretty good in letting her know that you had things to do and could not spend a lot of time. I would just add one suggestions next time you try this: try to validate her feelings first. So, instead of going right into the "I don't have time" try saying, "It's important to me that you and I look at universities together (This is important because it puts her first in your thoughts). I am very behind on work right now though. When I get home this evening we can look at all the university options." Then give her a kiss and go to work. Don't get into the argument about it.

Secondly, as others have said, the physical violence is a big concern. Have you set a safety plan for when this starts? Could you have left the house when she began screaming, before it even got to the point of rage? For myself, I have prevented violent rages by doing this. When my H begins to yell, I tell him, "I don't like to be yelled at" and I walk out the door. If you can't get out of the house, is there a room you can lock yourself in until you can get out? Is calling the police an option for you?

[MrRight]

Hi Mr. Right,

Tough situation. Setting boundaries can be really scary, especially knowing that it could lead to physical violence. You did pretty good in letting her know that you had things to do and could not spend a lot of time. I would just add one suggestions next time you try this: try to validate her feelings first. So, instead of going right into the "I don't have time" try saying, "It's important to me that you and I look at universities together (This is important because it puts her first in your thoughts). I am very behind on work right now though. When I get home this evening we can look at all the university options." Then give her a kiss and go to work. Don't get into the argument about it.

Secondly, as others have said, the physical violence is a big concern. Have you set a safety plan for when this starts? Could you have left the house when she began screaming, before it even got to the point of rage? For myself, I have prevented violent rages by doing this. When my H begins to yell, I tell him, "I don't like to be yelled at" and I walk out the door. If you can't get out of the house, is there a room you can lock yourself in until you can get out? Is calling the police an option for you?

I will try to be more subtle next time.

Having a son at school who needs to be picked up reduces my options. Calling the police? It occurred to me - but what then? I still have to live with her. I also feel I cant take up dramatic options because of my son's educational situation - he is preparing for university application etc - has open days to attend. This may sound like me stalling - but I cant disregard it - I've been waiting years for him to complete his school education.

I can handle the violence - she has her limits to what she will do.

[toomanydogs]

Hi Mr. Right,
 I echo the concern about your physical safety and trust you'll be certain to take care of that? Even the threat of physical violence can be emotionally painful.
 I do also have a suggestion about setting boundaries--and this comes from my therapist, originally, and not me. Like you, I'd wait until I was shaking inside. One time, I needed to use the bathroom, and I kept backing away from my husband, telling him I'd get with him as soon as I used the bathroom, and he was getting incredibly angry with me, which, in turn made me even angrier than he was until I finally shouted at him that I had diarrhea and for God's sake, let me use the toilet. Not one of my best moments.
   Anyway, back to my therapist's advice or observation: I was not enforcing my own boundaries until I was shaking inside. I'd be upset, and my husband was able to pick on my being emotionally rocky, which always makes him lash out. Now--and this takes practice--I remind myself to pay attention to how I'm breathing and how I'm feeling in my body. Is my breathing tight? Are my muscles tense? At the first sign that my breathing isn't deep and even, I know he's pushing past a boundary, I've set, and I disengage.
  I've got a stock answer now, one I say by rote, "Honey, I'm absolutely swamped, so I've got to go. Remember, sweetheart, I love you. I'll be back as soon as I can." That works for me because I'm saying it before I've gotten tense. Being reactive with him causes him to become even more reactive. Doesn't work.
  Staying mindful of where I am in relation to him helps me, but, like I said, it's not easy. I've been practicing a lot of this since 2010, and only recently do I feel like I'm succeeding at my response, succeeding at staying mindful and non-reactive. I went through a lot of resentment that I was the one who was making the changes, and I have learned and am still learning that I can only change myself. I always knew that intellectually. I'm beginning to embrace it emotionally.
  Somewhere on this forum, I read to be in a relationship with someone with BPD requires the non-BPD to be the emotional leader. Great way to look at it, not real easy to put into practice.
  Stay safe,
Toomanydogs

[MrRight]

Hi Mr. Right,
 I echo the concern about your physical safety and trust you'll be certain to take care of that? Even the threat of physical violence can be emotionally painful.
 I do also have a suggestion about setting boundaries--and this comes from my therapist, originally, and not me. Like you, I'd wait until I was shaking inside. One time, I needed to use the bathroom, and I kept backing away from my husband, telling him I'd get with him as soon as I used the bathroom, and he was getting incredibly angry with me, which, in turn made me even angrier than he was until I finally shouted at him that I had diarrhea and for God's sake, let me use the toilet. Not one of my best moments.
   Anyway, back to my therapist's advice or observation: I was not enforcing my own boundaries until I was shaking inside. I'd be upset, and my husband was able to pick on my being emotionally rocky, which always makes him lash out. Now--and this takes practice--I remind myself to pay attention to how I'm breathing and how I'm feeling in my body. Is my breathing tight? Are my muscles tense? At the first sign that my breathing isn't deep and even, I know he's pushing past a boundary, I've set, and I disengage.
  I've got a stock answer now, one I say by rote, "Honey, I'm absolutely swamped, so I've got to go. Remember, sweetheart, I love you. I'll be back as soon as I can." That works for me because I'm saying it before I've gotten tense. Being reactive with him causes him to become even more reactive. Doesn't work.
  Staying mindful of where I am in relation to him helps me, but, like I said, it's not easy. I've been practicing a lot of this since 2010, and only recently do I feel like I'm succeeding at my response, succeeding at staying mindful and non-reactive. I went through a lot of resentment that I was the one who was making the changes, and I have learned and am still learning that I can only change myself. I always knew that intellectually. I'm beginning to embrace it emotionally.
  Somewhere on this forum, I read to be in a relationship with someone with BPD requires the non-BPD to be the emotional leader. Great way to look at it, not real easy to put into practice.
  Stay safe,
Toomanydogs

Thanks - that sounds like good advice - yes I waited until I was angry - bad move as she reacts badly to my negative emotions.

Mine also hates it when I go to the toilet at a time when she is talking to me. Until she has decided she has finished with me and wants to get on with her own things - I am not allowed to go to the toilet. Or if I do it will impact on the rest of the day - another rage attack. "You're obsessed with the XXXXX toilet! You freak! You've ruined my mood for the day!"

[HelenaHandbasket]

Good Gawd. That is so bizarre, about the toilet thing. Why is she so resistant to your seeing to basic bodily functions? That's a level of control I haven't seen before, although my abusive ex did used to stand outside the bathroom and yell at me if I had to use the bathroom during an argument.

[MrRight]

Good Gawd. That is so bizarre, about the toilet thing. Why is she so resistant to your seeing to basic bodily functions? That's a level of control I haven't seen before, although my abusive ex did used to stand outside the bathroom and yell at me if I had to use the bathroom during an argument.

I think she sees going to the toilet while she is talking as invalidating

when we are driving - I'm an adult - she says - not a child

she will pay for all this b/s one day in the near future

[Gumiho]

she will pay for all this b/s one day in the near future

I laughed when I read that. sorry ;;

What do you intend to do?
I mean options are fairly limited, if you consider her triggering to the slightest hint of a negative emotion... .(mine does that too... uber extreme, a mere sigh can trigger her)

[HelenaHandbasket]

Dude, that "she will pay" comment came across as super creepy--I'm sure that's not how you intended it, but I got  a little chill when I read it. 

I read too many true crime books.   

[MrRight]

Dude, that "she will pay" comment came across as super creepy--I'm sure that's not how you intended it, but I got  a little chill when I read it. 

I read too many true crime books.   

I mean I'm going to leave her sooner or later. Sooner I hope.

[BeagleGirl]

Is there some reason why both of you need to go pick up S14?  I think there are a lot of places where the boundary of respecting your time could have been defended, but one of the clear areas of improvement I can see is not getting in a car with her.

I also suspect there is a place with WiFi near S14's school where you could have parked yourself and worked from when the "storm" started brewing. 

[Pulka]

Whilst not directly approaching the problem - have you thought about renting a workspace on a temporary basis?
I think whilst not ideal or cost effective it could potentially save your health and business.

I would recommend having a sit down with your wife, with valid points as to why you need to be left alone between say 10-3.

'While I love your company and value your input into my work (fluffing comments). I really need to focus on work between x-x this is because I've been doing well with work and have now got x orders on the books.' ' you understand that if these orders are not done in a timely manner, I will no longer be able to support our family and give our son a bright upbringing.'
'More fluffy comments; how would you feel about having an hour of my time solely to focus on university for you, I know how important this is to you'
Also give her goals to focus on instead of issues - say if I get x orders on the books and complete them, we could go away for the weekend... .

If she attempts to get angry with you again. Firmly state 'you're breaching my personal boundaries and I would like you to leave me alone' if she continues. Walk away, get out of the house and leave her to flip out on her own. Text her when you've stopped 'I've gone to get something from the store and to have a breather I will be back in 30 minutes'

Have a sit down with her and again imagine you're talking to a child and explain why it's unacceptable to cross boundaries and how it is harmful.

Hope this helps

[MrRight]

Is there some reason why both of you need to go pick up S14?  I think there are a lot of places where the boundary of respecting your time could have been defended, but one of the clear areas of improvement I can see is not getting in a car with her.

I also suspect there is a place with WiFi near S14's school where you could have parked yourself and worked from when the "storm" started brewing. 

very perceptive point.

well - she doesn't drive so I need to do the driving.
In addition to BPD she suffers from anxiety disorder (what a lucky guy I am eh!) so she needs to be with us - or she will be at home biting her nails and sending zillions of texts and wanting instant replies.
she doesnt like to let me or S14 out of her sight if she can avoid it - afraid we might be knifed from behind or crash in the car.

You people are wonderful with all the advice etc - but I am beginning to realise I am utterly trapped in this. It's my own silly fault - all the signs were there 16 years ago - I could have prevented this nightmare.

[Pulka]

Mr right - sorry to hear you feel trapped. Whilst certainly not a nice feeling, it's not one to blame yourself over. You cannot blame yourself for someone's behaviour.

Is your wife proactively seeking treatment? Not just pills, but talking therapies? And does she acknowledge she has an illness/problem?

If she's acknowledged she's unwell, it might be an opportunity to discuss her accessing treatment and perhaps for yourself - not suggesting you need it, but someone to talk through the impact it has on you.

Focus on what you can change as an individual, once you're in a good mind set. you can then approach and tackle her problems one small step at a time.

[MrRight]

Mr right - sorry to hear you feel trapped. Whilst certainly not a nice feeling, it's not one to blame yourself over. You cannot blame yourself for someone's behaviour.

Is your wife proactively seeking treatment? Not just pills, but talking therapies? And does she acknowledge she has an illness/problem?

If she's acknowledged she's unwell, it might be an opportunity to discuss her accessing treatment and perhaps for yourself - not suggesting you need it, but someone to talk through the impact it has on you.

Focus on what you can change as an individual, once you're in a good mind set. you can then approach and tackle her problems one small step at a time.

She does not acknowledge she has a problem - and can become violent if her mental health is brought up in conversation.

She believes her behaviour is caused by me - and if I could take a good long look at myself in the mirror and change - all her problems would dissolve like a magic pill in champagne.

does that answer your question?

[5xFive]

Thank you for your post!
And all of the replies were wonderful to read. My H is uBPD but I have had the same situation time and again where I need to work, or go to the toilet, or SLEEP and he gets so upset. I love reading how others validate their spouses, it helps me when I get to where I'm saying: this is completely irrational, I have to freaking poop! Lol. But maybe in the future I can say: I'm so glad we're talking and I want to hear more about what you're saying! Let me go to the bathroom and we can continue our conversation. Lol.
It's a bit tougher when I need to sleep. We have a baby and I am so tired, and don't function well without sleep. It's hard to be the emotional grown up in a relationship when I too want to rage sometimes - about how unfair he's being.
Thanks again. You guys are great!

[MrRight]

Thank you for your post!
And all of the replies were wonderful to read. My H is uBPD but I have had the same situation time and again where I need to work, or go to the toilet, or SLEEP and he gets so upset. I love reading how others validate their spouses, it helps me when I get to where I'm saying: this is completely irrational, I have to freaking poop! Lol. But maybe in the future I can say: I'm so glad we're talking and I want to hear more about what you're saying! Let me go to the bathroom and we can continue our conversation. Lol.
It's a bit tougher when I need to sleep. We have a baby and I am so tired, and don't function well without sleep. It's hard to be the emotional grown up in a relationship when I too want to rage sometimes - about how unfair he's being.
Thanks again. You guys are great!

You may - like me - find the most help you get from this board is the knowledge it's not just you going through this. It has helped me feel less alone. Mine just does not accept - I love you but I need to go to the toilet now - she will say well if you love me then listen to me you freakin xxxx!

I try to validate or at least avoid invalidating - with varying degrees of success. I'm fed up being married to a child. It's exhausting.

In your case - a mum that needs sleep - I hope some of the advice you will get on here will lead to improvements.

[HelenaHandbasket]

I mean I'm going to leave her sooner or later. Sooner I hope.

Haha--I know, don't worry!  My comment was really just about being amused at my own reaction. I really do read too many true crime books.   

[Lunira]

How your wife is behaving is actually highly reminiscent of how my mother (also BPD) behaved.  Let me give you another take on this, and you tell me if it rings true for you... .

It's not about the college.

It's not about the boy.

Think about it.  Your son is 14 years old.  What is he, maybe a freshman in high school?  College is a good four years away, even if he goes right after he graduates high school.  Most people don't even start seriously considering their options until the kid starts their junior year in high school, and even at that point, the kid will end up attending a public college in the same state or a nearby state, one that is just 'elite' enough to be taken seriously by prospective employers, but not so 'elite' that the costs of attending are absolutely unsupportable.  Now, if you're one of those pretentious, image-obsessed, incredibly annoying couples who are arguing whether Junior is going to go to Harvard, Dartmouth, or Sanford when the kid is barely out of diapers, ok, I stand corrected.  But assuming you're a normal person of normal, middle-class means... .this isn't about the college, and it isn't about the boy.  There's plenty of time for that, deciding which one is just not a pressing issue right now. 

The college and the boy are tools she is using, in order to strongarm a certain response out of you and get what she wants, while ensuring that any negative or shame-based "bad person" fallout from the request lands in your lap rather than her own.   

What she's actually wanting is your attention. 

Do you see how she's set this whole thing up?  If she simply said, "I am lonely, I want your attention." how would most people in your position have responded?  "You do get my attention, we already spent breakfast together, and we talked about this, and we talked about that, and just a few days ago we did this... ." and so on.  And then you would have said something like, "I need to get all this work done.  Someone's got to support the family, so let me work... ."

It would have made her feel that you consider her needy, childish, unreasonable, irrational, and annoying, and that she doesn't pull her weight re: the family's needs.  Frankly, she  might well be all of these things, but that isn't the point I'm trying to make here.  The point is this: she manipulates others into regulating her own internal emotional state and keeping the shame feelings away, because she can't. 

Instead, she tries to make it seem like this is about the college, and about the boy.  Now, if you don't give her your undivided attention for hours on end, it's not HER shame to bear.  She can twist it to make it YOUR shame, by accusing you of not caring about your family or your son's future.  (THAT is where the college and the boy come in, that's why she's pretending her desire for your attention is about the college and the boy!)  Now THERE'S an awesome shame-torpedo, and you'll be too busy bailing water in your own boat to put the blame where it belongs and thereby sink her battleship, instead.  You get how this works?  If she wins (gets you to spend even more time with her) then she wins, but if she loses, then she STILL wins (you are the "bad person" and not her).  The latter is more like a double-win, actually... .it's pretty damn hard to ignore anyone who is beating them with a cell phone (so she's still getting plenty of attention), AND she still can make someone else into the "bad person", rather than feeling like one herself.

Why don't you use her desire for your attention to your advantage here?  You say you are behind on your work.  Ok, pick some tasks that are so simple and basic that even a 10 year-old couldn't screw them up, and delegate them to her.  That way, she gets some of your attention and to feel like a "good girl" who is helping, and you get to grind through your backlog faster.  And let's be honest here, she probably doesn't have much else to do but be bored, watch television, and cause pointless drama anyway.  Put her to work.

[MrRight]

How your wife is behaving is actually highly reminiscent of how my mother (also BPD) behaved.  Let me give you another take on this, and you tell me if it rings true for you... .

It's not about the college.

It's not about the boy.

Think about it.  Your son is 14 years old.  What is he, maybe a freshman in high school?  College is a good four years away, even if he goes right after he graduates high school.  Most people don't even start seriously considering their options until the kid starts their junior year in high school, and even at that point, the kid will end up attending a public college in the same state or a nearby state, one that is just 'elite' enough to be taken seriously by prospective employers, but not so 'elite' that the costs of attending are absolutely unsupportable.  Now, if you're one of those pretentious, image-obsessed, incredibly annoying couples who are arguing whether Junior is going to go to Harvard, Dartmouth, or Sanford when the kid is barely out of diapers, ok, I stand corrected.  But assuming you're a normal person of normal, middle-class means... .this isn't about the college, and it isn't about the boy.  There's plenty of time for that, deciding which one is just not a pressing issue right now. 

The college and the boy are tools she is using, in order to strongarm a certain response out of you and get what she wants, while ensuring that any negative or shame-based "bad person" fallout from the request lands in your lap rather than her own.   

What she's actually wanting is your attention. 

Do you see how she's set this whole thing up?  If she simply said, "I am lonely, I want your attention." how would most people in your position have responded?  "You do get my attention, we already spent breakfast together, and we talked about this, and we talked about that, and just a few days ago we did this... ." and so on.  And then you would have said something like, "I need to get all this work done.  Someone's got to support the family, so let me work... ."

It would have made her feel that you consider her needy, childish, unreasonable, irrational, and annoying, and that she doesn't pull her weight re: the family's needs.  Frankly, she  might well be all of these things, but that isn't the point I'm trying to make here.  The point is this: she manipulates others into regulating her own internal emotional state and keeping the shame feelings away, because she can't. 

Instead, she tries to make it seem like this is about the college, and about the boy.  Now, if you don't give her your undivided attention for hours on end, it's not HER shame to bear.  She can twist it to make it YOUR shame, by accusing you of not caring about your family or your son's future.  (THAT is where the college and the boy come in, that's why she's pretending her desire for your attention is about the college and the boy!)  Now THERE'S an awesome shame-torpedo, and you'll be too busy bailing water in your own boat to put the blame where it belongs and thereby sink her battleship, instead.  You get how this works?  If she wins (gets you to spend even more time with her) then she wins, but if she loses, then she STILL wins (you are the "bad person" and not her).  The latter is more like a double-win, actually... .it's pretty damn hard to ignore anyone who is beating them with a cell phone (so she's still getting plenty of attention), AND she still can make someone else into the "bad person", rather than feeling like one herself.

Why don't you use her desire for your attention to your advantage here?  You say you are behind on your work.  Ok, pick some tasks that are so simple and basic that even a 10 year-old couldn't screw them up, and delegate them to her.  That way, she gets some of your attention and to feel like a "good girl" who is helping, and you get to grind through your backlog faster.  And let's be honest here, she probably doesn't have much else to do but be bored, watch television, and cause pointless drama anyway.  Put her to work.

Thanks for your input.

You are right about some things and wrong about others.

True - she cant regulate her internal world so she does use me for that. She continually invites me to validate - "what do you think? Did I do the right thing" etc.

Her interest in the boy is something else - I would have been the one to allow him to have a normal childhood - but she wanted him to achieve his potential when he is ready - not wait for others to catch up. So he may well be 16 when he starts his bachelor degree yes (we are in the UK). I hope that when he finally starts his degree she will ease off and relax a bit. As it is she blames me all the time for jeopordising his chances. So I dont think that is about attention defecit. She treats education and achievement like a god. Anything that threatens his success she will destroy. He is a good fellow - a normal boy in many ways - laughs at silly jokes - is popular with girls (much older than he is) at school. Has all the ingredients to be successful in life without all the fuss and pushing pressure of a BPD tiger mum. He's come this far though and given his level I support fully his progress. I think it will work out for him not least because he has 1 fully sane adult in the house.

Our relationship has gone fully stale - I'm exhausted with it - the last time we had sex was 2 months ago. I cant manage it anymore - how can you have a relationship with someone with these issues.