Maybe it is me.

[starfox]

Here we are again. I am this close to posting in conflicted and deciding, but some crazy part of me is holding out hope.

I've been with my SO who I believe is uBPD for 9 months, living together almost 6. I found this board a few weeks ago after our therapist (now just my therapist) recommended reading "The High-Conflict Couple" and I read the reviews stating it was helpful for BPD, fell down the rabbit hole reading, felt like I got struck by lightning and now we're here... .

We have been fighting like crazy and I have felt so worn down and so exhausted. I read Walking on Eggshells last weekend and have been trying to use the techniques in it. SO was giving me the cold shoulder all week. Had a friend visit and was so warm to me today, which I felt cautious about, and they noticed, but we tried talking.

All our issues (to them) always come back to how I need to "be nice" everything I say "is critical" and I need to "word it differently" and "take responsibility for my actions with nothing else overlaid onto it" so that I can give my partner the benefit of the doubt that they'll take responsibility for their own part of it after.

I'm so tired.

This night's explosion happened because we were trying to resolve our ongoing conflict. My partner was starting to get heightened and started to go on a tangent about how they are jealous of my co-workers because I'm so nice to them all the time (my job is extremely service-oriented) and why can't I just be nice to my partner? I tried to empathize that I understand why they would feel jealous of my co-workers but stated that the jealousy was their feeling, and isn't about me. I guess I did this really wrong. I just want to assert a firmer boundary around not taking responsibility for their feelings, but I fear I've let it get so far over the line that it can't go back. This was when they started to interrupt me and I calmly stated that I wanted to have my turn to talk (they could go on and and on on forever) and they kept interrupting me as I was trying to explain/basically ask them to take accountability for their own feelings.

Their cue to get up, yell at me, slam the front door in my face, and go sleep on the couch where they proceeded to text me:

Them: There. Now you have the gratification that you provoked the reaction that you were looking for. It is validation that you were seeking, right?"

Me: No. Not at all, not even close, not even a little bit. I do not like when that happens. I just wanted to talk.

Them: Fully undivided attention, by any means necessary.

Me: You seem really angry and upset. I was just talking and wanting to be heard. I'm not the one who stormed off the porch and slammed the door in your face.

Them: I think there's a mean side of you to shield you from allowing any real closeness. But you are the one who loves playing the game of making fun of me for admitting that I might be envious that you can act nice to strangers for money but are hyper critical and emotionally manipulative to me.

Me: I was simply saying that I understand it would feel upsetting and it sounds like you are jealous of perceived interaction with other parts of my life that you would like to have too. Stating that I understand the jealousy but it is not mine to hold is not mean, it is not emotionally manipulative, and it is not critical of you. It's simply stating that I understand you have that feeling but that feeling is not my responsibility. I can understand it without taking it on as mine. I do want to work on having nicer interactions. In this instance I'm not the one who walked away in a negative manner.


Then radio silence. I sat on the porch a good 2 more hours and looked for new apartments on Craigslist. I know I could have reacted better; I really forget all the time that people like this are truly emotional children. I wish I saw any sign of this in the beginning. I wish it could get better. I thought I could really spend and share my life with this person.

And throughout it all I find myself wondering "Am I mean? Am I critical? Am I emotionally manipulative?" I don't think so but they make me wonder. My therapist (formerly ours) has recommended several books about verbal abuse and does not think I am any of those things.

I have my own woundings, and I have spent a ton of time and therapy dealing with them and finding the tools to handly my own emotions. I'm not perfect but I am super proud of myself for fighting so hard for that for years. My partner is also emotionally wounded, we all are, and they are just starting to unravel that and figure it out. I don't know if I can be this close to them throughout the process.

They say they're my "emotional punching bag" but so often it's the reverse. So many of the things they accuse me of are things I wish they could see themselves doing to me. And at the end of the day I still start to question myself and my reality because they are so relentless about it. Maybe it is me.

I'm sorry if I'm using this board wrong. I'm really open to critical feedback on what I can do different, which is part of why I've included our verbatim texting. And am happy to answer any questions. I just feel super alone and want to try to figure out how this can be better.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

I was trying to explain/basically ask them to take accountability for their own feelings.

Subtle point here. You are telling them what to do, especially something they probably aren't capable of doing, and most likely know it. They have no option but to take it as criticism and react in the only way they know how.

Better to say that you see how their feelings get affected (support), you are happy to hear how they feel and see it must be hurtful (empathy), clearly state that at the end of the day though you can't take responsibility for how someone else feels, you can only help them work things though if they like (truth). This is the technique known as SET. A tool keep your reality without invalidating or appear to be attacking the other person.

Its a case of not picking up their baggage without actually thrusting it back at them. You can only say what YOU wont do, rather than what they should do.

[pearlsw]

Oh, this SET strategy seems really helpful. I am new here and hadn't seen this yet. Oh gosh, any help, any help through this darkness. I love how it lets you "keep reality". I feel like I am constantly, desperately trying to hold onto any sense of reality.

[pearlsw]

And to the original poster. I am really impressed with how much self-work you do. This is a great example of trying. Whatever happens for you it is a great investment in yourself! Sending you best wishes!

[isilme]

They say they're my "emotional punching bag" but so often it's the reverse. So many of the things they accuse me of are things I wish they could see themselves doing to me. And at the end of the day I still start to question myself and my reality because they are so relentless about it. Maybe it is me.

Projection - gaslighting.  NO, for the most part, it is NOT you - they have an issue managing their emotions.  Because part of BPD is avoiding shame and blame, they cannot take any responsibility for those emotions and need to 100% blame them on the person closest - you.  You have become a "safe" scapegoat.  That is what happens when you are allowed "in".  Any bad feelings CAN'T be their fault - it must be yours.  Anything they do that is mean or negative, YOU must really be doing or something you do MAKES them do it to you.  It CAN'T be their fault.

Knowing this is a BIG step.  It helps you start to disentangle yourself from the emotions they try to push off onto you.  You CAN refuse to own those emotions.

Once someone has stormed off, the conversation should try to end at that point, for a while.  You will never be able to convince them of your point of view, you will not be heard, you are talking to a wall of emotions.  Logic does not matter.  Reason does not exist.  The emotional storm AHS to pass before you can make much headway.  Sometimes, you are stuck and can't get out of the storm, but if you can, do so.  Validation works best before the storm starts, and can sometimes head it off.  SET works best also before the storm.  Or After.  During, batten down the hatches and take cover until is passes.  Leave, let them leave, turn off the phone for a while. 

This was when they started to interrupt me and I calmly stated that I wanted to have my turn to talk (they could go on and and on on forever) and they kept interrupting me as I was trying to explain/basically ask them to take accountability for their own feelings.

I have to agree with Starfox, here.  Think of BPD as a disability.  They are emotionally disabled.  That's pretty much the gist of it.  Without a lot of time, and help, (and they CAN improve even if they never even know they have BPD, but it takes TIME), things can get better, they CAN learn to listen, and things can get calmer.  But right now, especially when the dysregulation is starting - warning sign - interruptions, accusations, etc - this is not the time to convince them of anything at all.  You don't ask the guy in a wheel chair to run a 50-meter dash, you don't ask an emotionally disabled person to control their emotions when they have lost or are losing control.  You can't talk tot hem like a person with better emotional skills 0 they don't have them.  Not yet. 

You are using the board the just fine - but it takes a lot of time, practice, and us changing how we all react for any headway to be made. 

[once removed]

i really appreciate when members give good accounts of the back and forth, as it really helps in the post mortem.

I'm so tired.

the communication tools, once practiced, become natural, and can really lighten your load. to me, its less about getting every last word or move right, and more about choosing your battles, or not making things worse. there is a fair amount of JADE and invalidation on your end that i suspect escalated this conflict.

My  partner was starting to get heightened and started to go on a tangent about how they are jealous of my co-workers because I'm so nice to them all the time (my job is extremely service-oriented) and why can't I just be nice to my partner?

im interested to hear a little more about how this started, and what provoked it. did it just begin with "im jealous of your coworkers, why cant you be nicer to me?"? was it in response to a perceived slight?

I tried to empathize that I understand why they would feel jealous of my co-workers but stated that the jealousy was their feeling, and isn't about me.

this is JADE territory, and it will be perceived as "that may be your feeling, but its wrong, and i have no responsibility for it." do you understand why she would feel jealous of your coworkers? if not, saying so will come off as insincere. if you dont understand, ask why - not to set her up for an argument or debate, just listen with empathy and try to get at the emotion/feeling driving it.

I guess I did this really wrong. I just want to assert a firmer boundary around not taking responsibility for their feelings, but I fear I've let it get so far over the line that it can't go back.

setting a boundary on this doesnt necessarily involve telling her "i am not responsible for your feelings". it involves living it, and not taking responsibility for her feelings, in your words or actions, feelings or thoughts. people with BPD struggle with the boundaries of others (even with their own). communicating them is appropriate, restating them multiple times is generally bending the boundary, and expecting her to just "get it" and never do it again is probably unrealistic.

This was when they started to interrupt me and I calmly stated that I wanted to have my turn to talk (they could go on and and on on forever) and they kept interrupting me as I was trying to explain/basically ask them to take accountability for their own feelings.

which is what i mean. the argument at this point is about who is responsible for her feelings.

Them: There. Now you have the gratification that you provoked the reaction that you were looking for. It is validation that you were seeking, right?"

thats a loaded and angry charge ascribing motives. tricky not to JADE.

Me: No. Not at all, not even close, not even a little bit. I do not like when that happens. I just wanted to talk.

JADE in the strike through. you might also try a sincere "it sucks when we get upset with each other and im sorry that you felt that way". see if its not disarming (personalize it. be sincere).

Me: You seem really angry and upset. I was just talking and wanting to be heard. I'm not the one who stormed off the porch and slammed the door in your face.

translation to her: "you got totally carried away, i was calm and reasonable, by the way, look what you did to the door". stay away from "im not the one who"s, that is tit for tat, and it will escalate things. "you seem really angry and upset" is tricky - you generally dont want to tell her how she feels, and this reads more like an accusation than letting her know you are listening. i think the line i recommended delivers it in a way that acknowledges her feelings without telling her how she feels.

Them: I think there's a mean side of you to shield you from allowing any real closeness. But you are the one who loves playing the game of making fun of me for admitting that I might be envious that you can act nice to strangers for money but are hyper critical and emotionally manipulative to me.

she was trying here, to redirect and communicate her feelings (and between the lines, shes telling you she wants to feel and be closer to you, which is what you want to zero in on). she also ascribed motives (that feel very real to her) and again, that sort of thing can prompt a JADE response. zero in on the first part, a lot of the rest is more tit for tat, anger. dont validate the invalid or JADE (you "love playing the game of making fun of her". dont "protest too much".

Me: I was simply saying that I understand it would feel upsetting and it sounds like you are jealous of perceived interaction with other parts of my life that you would like to have too. Stating that I understand the jealousy but it is not mine to hold is not mean, it is not emotionally manipulative, and it is not critical of you. It's simply stating that I understand you have that feeling but that feeling is not my responsibility. I can understand it without taking it on as mine. I do want to work on having nicer interactions. In this instance I'm not the one who walked away in a negative manner.

this whole thing is reexplaining your position, again. its a circular argument. on its own, its not bad. "i want to work on having nicer interactions" was good. however, in the larger context, this statement paints you as the reasonable, calm party, and concludes that she was the one who doesnt get it and lost it.

I'm sorry if I'm using this board wrong. I'm really open to critical feedback on what I can do different, which is part of why I've included our verbatim texting.

its a great use of the board to let us in on this stuff, and to ask us what you can do differently. making changes like this is not easy. mastering the communication tools is really, really awkward at first, and it can feel robotic (which generally wont work) at first too. its especially not easy when tempers are flared and emotions are high. like i said, with practice, this will all become more natural. try practicing the communication tools with everyone in your life, not just your wife. theyre skills for life that work with everyone.

[starfox]

Subtle point here. You are telling them what to do, especially something they probably aren't capable of doing, and most likely know it. They have no option but to take it as criticism and react in the only way they know how.

Better to say that you see how their feelings get affected (support), you are happy to hear how they feel and see it must be hurtful (empathy), clearly state that at the end of the day though you can't take responsibility for how someone else feels, you can only help them work things though if they like (truth). This is the technique known as SET. A tool keep your reality without invalidating or appear to be attacking the other person.

Its a case of not picking up their baggage without actually thrusting it back at them. You can only say what YOU wont do, rather than what they should do.

Thank you for this. I can see what you are saying clearly, and I also appreciate the specific SET response. Bolded the part that really clicked in a different understanding for me. I love this board. It's been keeping me sane reading it and offering me a lot of insights and practices.

[starfox]

Projection - gaslighting.  NO, for the most part, it is NOT you - they have an issue managing their emotions.  Because part of BPD is avoiding shame and blame, they cannot take any responsibility for those emotions and need to 100% blame them on the person closest - you.  You have become a "safe" scapegoat.  That is what happens when you are allowed "in".  Any bad feelings CAN'T be their fault - it must be yours.  Anything they do that is mean or negative, YOU must really be doing or something you do MAKES them do it to you.  It CAN'T be their fault.

Knowing this is a BIG step.  It helps you start to disentangle yourself from the emotions they try to push off onto you.  You CAN refuse to own those emotions.

Read this last week shortly after you posted it, but I have been crazy busy with work and things outside of work and all this ongoing disconnect and haven't had time to respond.

*Giant exhale* Thank you. Reading these words shortly after our disconnect really helped. I love that we practice validating so much around here; I don't have many people in my life to share this stuff with and I only see my therapist once per week, who is great at validating my experience here and reminding me what is actually up--like the first and last sentence of this paragraph.

Think of BPD as a disability.  They are emotionally disabled.  That's pretty much the gist of it.  Without a lot of time, and help, (and they CAN improve even if they never even know they have BPD, but it takes TIME), things can get better, they CAN learn to listen, and things can get calmer.  But right now, especially when the dysregulation is starting - warning sign - interruptions, accusations, etc - this is not the time to convince them of anything at all.  You don't ask the guy in a wheel chair to run a 50-meter dash, you don't ask an emotionally disabled person to control their emotions when they have lost or are losing control.  You can't talk tot hem like a person with better emotional skills 0 they don't have them.  Not yet. 

Great analogy here and great points. I especially smiled over the analogy as my partner is very fond of using them to explain their experience when they are heightened and feel wrong. Theirs often leave me scratching my head also give me more insight into their emotional space and how they interact with the world.

So much of what I have to wrap my head around here is so outside the realm of what I've learned about dealing with my own emotions after yeas of therapy, and it's been difficult for me to adjust but also encouraging to have something to work on myself with the larger goal of having a healthy, sustainable relationship in mind. I wouldn't get mad at my partner if they broke their leg and needed help getting around--it's so much harder to not get mad/defeated/sad when my partner doesn't have healthy emotional skills and takes them out on me. Your perspective here helps, and I feel that I will have to more strongly accept this as my reality right now if I want to see progress.

[starfox]

im interested to hear a little more about how this started, and what provoked it. did it just begin with "im jealous of your coworkers, why cant you be nicer to me?"? was it in response to a perceived slight?

This is a CONSTANT lately in our relationship. "Just be nicer to me." "I just want you to be nice to me." "I just want a partner who is nice to me." "Why can't you be nicer to me?" The thing is I KNOW I'm a nice person. I HAVE to be nice to everyone at work because that's a huge part of my job, but I think that people in my life whom I'm actually close with would also describe me as nice. I feel like this "just be nicer to me" bit has also gotten ramped up since I had a positive performance review at work, which I shared with my partner, where some of the most positive feedback was about my attitude at work.
 
As for how this came up, we were working on resolving a completely separate issue--just when we came to a point that felt like resolution the coworker thing got brought up. My partner is excellent at keeping track of perceived slights and lists of ways I've wronged them. This is not the first time they've expressed jealousy (one time we got in a huge fight because they used the word "envious" about this and I used "jealous" interchangeably and that was not OK for them, but it's OK for them to use jealous now) over my coworkers and their perception of my interaction with them. It was almost like it got brought up to keep the fight going/push my buttons/wear me out.
 

this is JADE territory, and it will be perceived as "that may be your feeling, but its wrong, and i have no responsibility for it." do you understand why she would feel jealous of your coworkers? if not, saying so will come off as insincere. if you dont understand, ask why - not to set her up for an argument or debate, just listen with empathy and try to get at the emotion/feeling driving it.

setting a boundary on this doesnt necessarily involve telling her "i am not responsible for your feelings". it involves living it, and not taking responsibility for her feelings, in your words or actions, feelings or thoughts. people with BPD struggle with the boundaries of others (even with their own). communicating them is appropriate, restating them multiple times is generally bending the boundary, and expecting her to just "get it" and never do it again is probably unrealistic.

I can see how to my uBPD partner they might hear it this way. I have asked why they feel jealous of my coworkers before, but not since finding this board or learning some of the methods here. I know if that comes up again I can ask that and listen with empathy, without taking blame for how they feel and without telling them it's not my responsibility that they feel that way.

thats a loaded and angry charge ascribing motives. tricky not to JADE.

Yeah. They are brilliant at taking a lot of their behavior, describing it perfectly, and ascribing it to me instead.

JADE in the strike through. you might also try a sincere "it sucks when we get upset with each other and im sorry that you felt that way". see if its not disarming (personalize it. be sincere).

translation to her: "you got totally carried away, i was calm and reasonable, by the way, look what you did to the door". stay away from "im not the one who"s, that is tit for tat, and it will escalate things. "you seem really angry and upset" is tricky - you generally dont want to tell her how she feels, and this reads more like an accusation than letting her know you are listening. i think the line i recommended delivers it in a way that acknowledges her feelings without telling her how she feels.

This is helpful, thank you. I've read mixed advice on describing the BPDs emotions to them. Sometimes it's suggested as a way to offer empathy or show that you're listening--even if you don't hit the mark. But I can see how it would also feel like I'm telling them how they feel and that would not be OK.

its a great use of the board to let us in on this stuff, and to ask us what you can do differently. making changes like this is not easy. mastering the communication tools is really, really awkward at first, and it can feel robotic (which generally wont work) at first too. its especially not easy when tempers are flared and emotions are high. like i said, with practice, this will all become more natural. try practicing the communication tools with everyone in your life, not just your wife. theyre skills for life that work with everyone.

Thank you for your thorough response and breakdown of all the stuff I talked about here. I appreciate having a clear record of our communications (I've even quietly recorded some of them) because like you said, it helps in the post mortem a lot. I will keep working on practicing the communication skills, especially with non-BPs in my life.