Should I discuss BPD with D16 after incident with her uBPDm (my uBPDw)?

[Radcliff]

uBPDw returned from a week of travel yesterday, with me home with D16 and D12.  Trip returns are risky.  We had had some good text and phone conversations while she was away, including yesterday while she was traveling, but as soon as she landed at the airport, she started splitting me black, and the confrontational texts began.  That evening, I found out I was terrible for not picking her up at the airport, and for not having food in the house.  Both are known issues with a trip return.  In the middle of the week, she got upset and said she didn't want a ride.  Then she asked for one.  Then yesterday we were texting, and she said I should go to an activity with D12 instead.  I said I didn't have to go to the activity, and it didn't feel right not to pick her up at the airport.  She said it didn't make sense logistically, so I respected her and left it at that.  The food was the same -- I asked her what food she wanted in the house on her return, and got it.

In the evening, uBPDw started yelling at me for letting D16 drop a high school class.  We were sitting with D12, and uBPDw wouldn't stop berating me that she couldn't believe I'd signed the drop form.  I asked that we not argue in front of D12 and wait until D16 got home to discuss it, and uBPDw kept going.  In front of D12, uBPDw said that I needed to move out, and that I'd better get a new job that paid more so I could pay alimony and child support.  :)16 and I had both worked super hard to coordinate with uBPDw while she was traveling, and thought it was quite clear that we'd agreed for her to drop the class as part of a carefully thought out course plan for D16 that we'd worked out with support from a guidance counselor.  :)16 has a text message from uBPDw on Friday saying to drop the class.  Earlier in the week, uBPDw had texted me that D16 was not to drop the class, but it was a completely disconnected text when she was mad at me, and fits a pattern of saying provoking things when she is mad, then not discussing them, so I ignored it after I talked to D16 who said she'd talked to uBPDw and uBPDw hadn't mentioned any issues with dropping the class.

When D16 got home, we did not have a calm conversation about a potential miscommunication and what was best for D16.  uBPDw was splitting us both black.  The stakes could not be higher for D16 -- she works so hard and wants to get into a very competitive college and uBPDw's support and advice to her is critical -- there is no place that she is more vulnerable now. uBPDw said we'd both screwed up by dropping the class, D16 had no chance of getting into her top choice now, and when she didn't get in she'd realize that uBPDw was right.  This went on for a while.  It's hard to describe how terrible and mind bending this apparent randomness was for D16, but I was proud of her.  She correctly identified uBPDw's reversal, and the unfairness of it.  She found the text message uBPDw had sent saying to drop the class.  :)16 was incredulous, and crying.  I stood beside her, put my hand on her back, and said in no uncertain terms that I supported her.  This totally came out of the blue for both of us.  My only guess is that uBPDx is acting out because she is upset at me.

I had thought I might tell my daughters about BPD when they were grown, maybe never, because I didn't want to undermine their relationship with their mother.  If something impacts them, I use some of the tips I've learned for talking to kids, backing up their reality, not defending indefensible actions, helping them to not take it personally, etc.  But I'm starting to wonder whether or not I should tell D16 about BPD.  She is very logical, old enough to understand, and the crazimaking aspects of BPD are really hurting her.  I wonder whether if she learned what BPD was, everything might "click" for her like it did for me and become much less random and threatening.  The down side is the potential for turning her against her mother, that she might blurt out something about BPD when upset with my wife, etc.  The stakes are high, and I would value the advice of any of you board friends, especially anyone who has raised teenagers in this environment.

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[Skip]

We want to be solution based.

No. Telling your 16 year old that your mother has a incomprehensible (for a 16 year old) mental illness is not going to help. That is parentifying a child when we put adult issues on them. It's considered abusive.

Besides, your wife will eventually find out and have legitimate feeling of betrayal and you will have set yourself up.

The picture you paint here is a women who is out of control and on a rampage when returning from trips.

What's going on here? Is it the stress of traveling? Is it diving back into a difficult home? Do you know exactly?

[takingandsending]

Kudos to you for being both an emotional and physical presence of support for your D16 as she was being painted black by your wife. And, Wow, your experience around trip returns has sent me back into some dark memories of when I traveled for work and how the tone of e-mails and texts would turn 180 degrees into the black by the time I landed at the airport. I really hated seeing 6-7 text messages on my phone once I turned it back on as airplane taxied to the gate. All I ever wanted was a "Hey, so glad you're home safe." but all I got was rage. So, yeah, totally get what a mind trip that is when BPD is involved with a return trip home.

It's a tough decision to make to tell a child that their parent suffers from a mental illness. We start out by trying to normalize our partners' behaviors. Then, we hopefully move on to validating our children's experience and feelings that may arise from those behaviors. At some point, I do believe, as part of that validation process, that is becomes appropriate to shine light into the mental illness, not as a way of blaming or shaming our partner, but as a way of helping our children understand the patterns of behaviors that their parent engages in that affect them. I especially believe this when a child is being triangulated/painted black by a parent.

Why? Because children create their own narrative of why things happen in their lives, and that narrative is often filled with shame, blame and guilt that will reach into their adult lives. It's a very personal decision, but I think that your D16, in this instance, deserves to know that her being split black is not about anything that she has done or will do. It is an illness her mom suffers from - an illness that adds behaviors that are intensely hard on the people that her mom is closest to.

After a particularly nasty attack by my xw on my S11 (9.5 at the time), I did tell him his mom had an illness, that her rage was a result of that illness and not at what he had done or who he was. I have never revisited that talk with him, but I have always tried to let him know that what he feels, his experience of things is not bad or wrong. I don't know about your D16, but my oldest son has been painted black by my xw since he was 2 days old when she began triangulating us. I didn't learn about BPD until he was 8-9. I didn't learn how to unequivocally stand by his side as a support and protection until I understood my wife's condition.

You might consider talking to your D16 about this, and possibly attending a NAMI family group class together. She may find an outlet or support network of peers facing similar challenges. But you are right to be concerned that it could be thrown at your wife in a moment of upset or argument. I think the NAMI class helps to let family members know that this is something that doesn't go away, but how to remain compassionate toward yourself as well as toward the person suffering from mental illness.

My heart hurts for the confusion your D16 must have felt, and the confusion that you must feel in trying to decide what to do. I wish you the strength of all of us in this community. You are not on this journey alone. 

[Skip]

1. We start out by trying to normalize our partners' behaviors.

2. Then, we hopefully move on to validating our children's experience and feelings that may arise from those behaviors.

3. At some point, I do believe, as part of that validation process, that is becomes appropriate to shine light into the mental illness, not as a way of blaming or shaming our partner, but as a way of helping our children understand the patterns of behaviors that their parent engages in that affect them. I especially believe this when a child is being triangulated/painted black by a parent.

I think this sequence is probably what a lot of us do. I would add a step between 2 and 3, which is to teach the child how to respond to people acting like their mother does. I said things like, "your mom gets very emotional when things like this happen (being very specific) and the best way to deal when people do this is... .

As for telling the child, mom has BPD, I would consider it very carefully. If I felt it necessary, I would enlist a professional to do it (ideally with you wife agreeing that daughter would benefit from some counseling). For a lot of reasons, its best coming from the outside.

A. It doesn't put the child in the position of picking the parent who is right.

B. Doesn't make you a target to wife.

c. The professional will figure how to reach the child in a way that is useful to them and will also direct you and your wife on how to follow-up (wife is now constructively involved).

D. You insulate yourself from any fallout from relatives, friends, teachers, guidance counselors, psychologist, divorce attorneys, etc. who might by into a claim that you are trying to alienate the child or disparage a spouse.

Let's play out a backfire scenario. Teacher sends daughter to guidance counselor. Daughter tells counselor that she is upset because mommy has BPD and parents fight a lot. CPS gets involved and mom gets evaluated by a psychologist. Psychologist says wife does not have BPD. Opps.

Later there is a divorce pending. Lawyer brings up this incident as a pattern of Parental Alienation. Opps x 2  

I'm not disagreeing with takingandsending. I am saying be careful. This is a landmind field.

Imagine the flip, you wife tells your daughter that you are NPD. How does a marriage survive that?

[bananas2]

Wow, Radcliff - That's a lot to deal with all at once. I'm so sorry the trip return went badly. 

The texting is really tricky. Texts can be helpful to demonstrate to the pwBPD the proof of what they said, but on the other hand, pwBPD tend to get defensive when confronted with their own words. It's a blessing and curse.

Since I'm not a parent, I don't feel confident giving any advice on the situation with your daughters, but just a thought: you might consider checking out the forum section "Children, Parent, or Relatives with BPD," subsection "Coping and healing from a BPD parent." Although these are now ADULT children of parents with BPD, they might have some insight as to what would have helped them cope with their BPD parent when they were your daughters ages.

Giving you a pat on the back for being so calm, supportive and proactive in the face of such adversity. 

[takingandsending]

I think this sequence is probably what a lot of us do. I would add a step between 2 and 3, which is to teach the child how to respond to people acting like their mother does. I said things like, "your mom gets very emotional when things like this happen (being very specific) and the best way to deal when people do this is... .

This is what I was after when I suggested helping children understand the behaviors that their parent engages in. And you are right, you share that with the intent of helping them learn how to deal with those behaviors. I recall sitting beside my S11 (at the time 9) while his mother was raging at him, asking him what would happen if he did not respond to her yelling, and reassuring him that it was okay if he chose that path. She was trying to bait him into reacting so she could vent more of her anger. He read a book while I sat beside him. It was very weird, but she did extinction burst.

For what its worth, my NAMI group never could understand why I didn't directly discuss BPD with my wife. I followed the guidance from the community here, and that was the best course while I was still married. Eventually, the few friends I did confide in shared what they thought was an open diagnosis with my wife, and there was fall out from it. But I had already decided to leave my marriage. What Skip says is relevant. But its hard to work toward advocacy when everything is swept into the closet. And ultimately, I think children can become empowered and find support in peers who are dealing with something similar. There is a heck of a lot of mental illness in families, and it's hard to be in isolation, dreading it, fearing it and not able to reach out. I guess that is why I think there's another path for older children. Admittedly, with my son, it was too early and done because I could see how much pain he was in, and I was in pain, too. But I don't give up hope that he can talk with peers in a similar dynamic about shared experiences and gain from it.

[Radcliff]

Wow, thank you for taking the time to write such thoughtful replies.  The back and forth and different perspectives in this discussion are hugely helpful.

I have no doubt on the narrow question of what would ease D16's trauma the most -- to tell her -- for all of the same reasons discovering BPD helped us to understand, cope and adapt.  But I am much less certain about the long term impact on her relationship with her mother (for worse or better) and the risks of surfacing a negative diagnosis or of incurring a parental alienation charge are good to know -- I understood there were unknown risks, but now I know two of them.  Getting a better understanding of risks I might not be aware of was one of the big things I was hoping for with this post.

There may be ways to talk to her short of the label.  "Splitting" cautions against using the term BPD, and it can be found nowhere in my pages of journals.  It says to just focus on patterns of behaviors.  I think I can split the difference between validating and full on disclosure by talking about the one or two patterns of behavior relevant to the daughter.  She should understand that these are not typical behaviors.  I can then pair that with a discussion of how to cope with it (pulling in your suggestion here).

Regarding trips, she says that when she is away from me, she reflects on all of the disappointments in our marriage and knows she'd be better off without me.  Fair enough, she is an adult and I own plenty in the relationship.  But it's a little mind bending when she asks me to change her connecting flight when she's in midair about to miss her first connection, I deliver, she thanks me with enthusiasm and warmth, then a few hours later I'm black.  At this point I'd settle for a "non" woman who was unhappy and wanted a divorce!

Things got worse today, with over 50 phone calls and more text messages.  She fabricated a crisis by saying that I had to be home early to bring D12 to the first practice with a new sports team (a very big deal for her).  She lied twice about conflicts she supposedly had.  Disrupting my work and pulling me home with a manufactured crisis where I need to do something for a child is a very typical pattern for her, but this was the worst ever.  My daughter could hear all the drama as we talked on the phone, plus my wife was impersonating my daughter via text (saying I'm pretending to be nice but am not nice to Mommy) and also calling from D12's phone to try to get to me.  D12 sees these text messages, knowing her mother is doing this, and she also is terribly anxious about getting to her practice.  I am on the way home and have no idea if my daughter got to practice. The level of dysfunction and damage here is stunning to me, and pushes me farther towards taking action.  I do not want to disrupt D16's senior year, but this is pretty d**m disruptive already.

[Skip]

Has been going on for a while, or is this an occassional meltdown.

When things get highly dysregulated like this, with some regularity, it's best to separate, even if it is after the fact. Space will help you both. The question is how to do this and not make matters worse or reward bad behavior.

Have you thought about getting a therapist and entering into a therapeutic separation?

Often, when a wife is routinely suggesting divorce, it often helps to accept that feeling and start down a path of some level of temporary separation. Often a space (with oversight) will help with perspective.

[Radcliff]

Hello everyone, thank you so much for all of the advice and support.  Things went downhill last night.  I've posted an update as a followup on the family law board:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=313938.new#new

Any input from my "Improving" friends would be greatly appreciated!

And Skip, I'm grateful for your thoughts -- you suggested a couple of things I had not thought of or heard elsewhere.  Thank you.

[formflier]

Few thoughts.

I've never had much luck "asking" my wife to change her behavior in front of the kids.  Generally it was likely "heard" as me lecturing her in front of the kids or "posturing".

However it was perceived... .it rarely went well.

Much better results when I dispersed the audience.  Apparently my wife likes lecturing others (particularly my kids) about my "faults".

Your kids are older than most of mine. 

I would send kids to their rooms until "the adult conversation is over". 

Anyway... .something to think about, but in the big scheme of your post and story... .I think there are bigger issues to think about first.

FF

[Radcliff]

Good thoughts, formflier, thanks.  I will respond to Skip's question on the other post regarding the deeper issues.

[formflier]

Good thoughts, formflier, thanks.  I will respond to Skip's question on the other post regarding the deeper issues.

Good... .I feel a bit off giving out too much specific advice, when its' an obviously volatile situation AND there is so much I don't yet understand.

I'm always amazed at the complicated "backstories" that develop in BPDish relationships.  I could tell my story for hours... .and all the "minutiae" that seems to matter.

So... .for now... .prioritize where you "spend" your energy... .try to reduce conflict... at least your part in it.

Hang in there...

FF