How would you have handled this?

[IsThisThingOn]

Where do I start? Well, I haven't provided much detail on my relationship or history so far. A part of me would rather focus on the now. I'm a big believer in focusing on the present.

I noticed my pwBPD was pretty dysregulated the last couple days. Yesterday things got pretty nasty after I posted a picture to instagram of my shoes and used the hashtag #wcw ... .ridiculous in my mind. But I validated and tried to SET. What I realized was the real issue was I made a comment about how I didn't plan on moving back in just yet. I think it might have triggered abandonment issues but who am I to assume, right? Anyway... .she said some pretty mean nasty rude things that I did not engage in. I respected her comment of "don't you dare text me a single time while I'm at work tonight" ... .it was the right thing to do. She's a nurse, her focus most certainly needed to be elsewhere.

She texted me this morning but I didn't see it which led to her calling someone who has been a source of contention since getting back together. For good reason. I can explain if necessary but would rather not otherwise. Either way, once she woke up we spoke and I genuinely did try not to JADE (but I know I did) and practice SET (which I don't think I did well) and all it led to was BAD. Followed by good. Followed by BAD. Followed by kinda good? As I type this I don't even know... .the first bad was her screaming into the phone how she "hates me so much" and then more. The 'kinda good' was I got her to talk to me and she went to work with ending on an "I love you" initiated by her... .

Problem is... .pretty sure I enabled and validated the bad behavior. I can expand on this... .I just don't want to make this post huge. Especially since right now I feel both good and awful about the entire thing.

Questions welcomed. Beyond welcomed. Let's explore PLEASE.

Thanks guys and gals.

-ItsOn

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[Jessica84]

I am so sorry.   What a rollercoaster! I hate you/I love you in the same day... .Dizzying isn't it? Try to catch your breath. Maybe you got more right than you think. I think feeling both good and awful is pretty common in these relationships. The ups and downs can drive the sanest person crazy!

What bad behavior do you think you enabled?

[IsThisThingOn]

What bad behavior do you think you enabled?

Hi Jessica84,

Thank you for your response. The bad behavior I think I enabled is her thinking its okay to treat me how she was treating me. I guess that requires a little further explanation.

Breakdown of the situation:
- It all began because I made a comment about how I would be going home because its "where I live" on the nights she would be at work. I think this may have triggered abandonment fears... .I'm not sure. The comment was made innocently enough right before bed. No reaction over it other than a slight change in demeanor but again it was right before we both fell asleep.  The next morning it was clear that comment spiraled her.

- Tried to use SET to calm the situation:
S - "I care about you and want to try and make you feel better about the situation"
E - "I see youre upset about me not wanting to move back in so quickly"
T - "We moved in together very quickly the first time and that didnt work out. When we decided to get back together we both made the decision to wait this time."

(How did I do?)

- Ended up giving me the silent treatment which I let her do. Not reacting to it though led to her making some pretty nasty mean remarks right before ordering me not to text her at all the rest of the evening.  I complied.

Full circle:  I called her after I left work the next day. She was standing pretty firm that I was 100% to blame... .I cant say I was surprised. Initially the conversation went seemingly well. She acknowledged that the mean things she said were unnecessary. Even admitted that when she gets that worked up her thoughts all boil up and lead to a "... .well then F**k him!" attitude. Good stuff to see she can acknowledge it. Problem is... .it didnt change how she chose to conduct herself. I tried to stay levelheaded and not do anything I know triggers her (raise my voice, cut her off, etc.) but none of it helped. It almost felt like me being calm in the situation just made her more angry. The  "I hate you" was screamed with such viciousness I could picture her face as she was saying it. Then she hung up.

In the end... .I caved and started subtly "begging" for her to please call me back so we can talk. All being met with it's over, I hate you, you're toxic etc etc. (Would that be considered projection?). I continued to ask and stay cool. Finally got her on the phone... .more yelling, more me staying cool, more unfair comments... .Eventually I didnt know what else to do to calm the situation so I feel I resolved it by "validating" but in an agreeing kind of way.  Meaning: I became complacent.  My level of mental and emotional exhaustion was at an all time high. All I wanted was for it to STOP.  That stopped it.  But now I know she realizes she can get me to cave.

How do I know?  This mornings comment when talking to the dog (in the midst of love-bombing me): "When men realize its better to just give in everyones happy arent they?"  *pause*  "Youre not laughing... .it was supposed to be funny."

I didnt think it was very funny... .but I did get confirmation of what I feared.

Sigh.

[Jessica84]

I see. Don't be so hard on yourself. We're all winging it the best we can!

"Begging" is a temp fix. Yes, it might get them talking, but at what cost? If they're still dysregulating, do we really want to talk to them? It also reinforces that their bad behavior works. So if we enable it, the more of it they will use. Silent treatment, chaos, whatever it is. They get the attention they crave in unhealthy ways when we reward bad behavior. We have to learn to give them the attention in healthier, more constructive ways.

I get why people do it though. I hate conflicts lingering in the air too. I want things resolved, and I want them resolved NOW.    But I had to learn patience and wait him out. I had to give him space to work thru his emotions in his own way, in his own time. And meanwhile, prepare for when he was ready to talk again. Another reason people "cave" is fear. The wow what are they doing now? fears.

Sometimes staying too calm and cool can also feel invalidating. NOT a criticism. Staying calm is still the way to go. This keeps YOUR mind steady so you can make good decisions. You put the oxygen mask on your first kinda thing. I've been taken as being "dismissive" before when I stopped reacting, but so what. We can't validate if we are hysterical ourselves!

It's just that it's the exact opposite of how she was feeling in the moment, so the stark contrast may have spun her out more. It can look like we don't care. I used to be soo cool, until I met my BPDbf. He used to constantly test me - provoked me into jealousy, rage or any other kind of hyped up state for 1) to make me feel the same intense emotions he felt (which calmed him down, but made me crazy!), or 2) to prove I cared. If I was a fireball of emotions, he knew he had me. But none of this proved "I care". It proved I got drawn in to nonsense. It was unhealthy for both of us. Your girl may have felt invalidated based on her warped standards of what "caring" looks like. Show her another way. She can learn over time to see it differently.

[waverider]

First off, you didn't do too bad.

You can't fix or resolve everything. There is no magic formula to prevent issues arising and going bad. We can look too closely at individual issues. The tools are just the good oil to make the cogs turn smoother, but busted cogs are still going to grind and jam occasionally. In the bigger picture it is about how you allow it to affect you overall and how consistent you are, and whether you feel your values are regularly being compromised.

Dont read too much into her final comment, there is no grand plan. Just a collection of in the moment impulsive reactions, many of them inappropriate

There needs to be a dose of internally shrugging things off and moving on. Its not always necessary to "man the barricades" in order to repel BPD behaviour. It is ok to cave, just as long as you know you are doing it, and you are not crumbling completely. It is a choice, and awareness keeps it your choice. It is when you crumble out of desperation that you loose ground,. pwBPD know the difference. If you dont allow them to "win" every now and then, no matter how dysfunctional this may seem it eventually undermines them, invalidates them, and makes them even more rebellious.

Being constantly made to feel wrong is one of the reasons there BPD was fuelled in the first place.

[waverider]

.

[5xFive]

You can't fix or resolve everything. There is no magic formula to prevent issues arising and going bad. We can look too closely at individual issues. The tools are just the good oil to make the cogs turn smoother, but busted cogs are still going to grind and jam occasionally. In the bigger picture it is about how you allow it to affect you overall and how consistent you are, and whether you feel your values are regularly being compromised

There needs to be a dose of internally shrugging things off and moving on. Its not always necessary to "man the barricades" in order to repel BPD behaviour. It is ok to cave, just as long as you know you are doing it, and you are not crumbling completely. It is a choice, and awareness keeps it your choice. It is when you crumble out of desperation that you loose ground,. pwBPD know the difference. If you dont allow them to "win" every now and then, no matter how dysfunctional this may seem it eventually undermines them, invalidates them, and makes them even more rebellious.

Wow. Some truly wise words right there waverider. I needed to read both of those paragraphs today. Maybe everyday... .

[IsThisThingOn]

First off, you didn't do too bad.

You can't fix or resolve everything. There is no magic formula to prevent issues arising and going bad. We can look too closely at individual issues. The tools are just the good oil to make the cogs turn smoother, but busted cogs are still going to grind and jam occasionally. In the bigger picture it is about how you allow it to affect you overall and how consistent you are, and whether you feel your values are regularly being compromised.

Dont read too much into her final comment, there is no grand plan. Just a collection of in the moment impulsive reactions, many of them inappropriate

There needs to be a dose of internally shrugging things off and moving on. Its not always necessary to "man the barricades" in order to repel BPD behaviour. It is ok to cave, just as long as you know you are doing it, and you are not crumbling completely. It is a choice, and awareness keeps it your choice. It is when you crumble out of desperation that you loose ground,. pwBPD know the difference. If you dont allow them to "win" every now and then, no matter how dysfunctional this may seem it eventually undermines them, invalidates them, and makes them even more rebellious.

Being constantly made to feel wrong is one of the reasons there BPD was fuelled in the first place.

This was extremely helpful to read. It helped me gain a bit of perspective on this situation as well as any future ones that are bound to happen.

A little update:  We spent the weekend together. It turned out to be a really great time.  Since we've decided to get back together, she has really made strides in showing she does recognize that her actions and reactions are not always in line with what is going on. I think she's figured herself out in that sense. Lots of talk about wanting to get into therapy and really get to the root of what the issue is. I've been hoping for a EUREKA! moment to happen.

As it turns out, she had taken the time to do some research in regards to herself (a little introspection! I like it!) and came across a book she felt would be helpful. The book takes a Buddhist approach to anger and how to better manage it. (It's by author Thich Hanh in case anyone is interested. I too plan on reading it once shes done.) It was great to see her fully invested in not only reading it but also taking notes and actively discussing parts with me that did, in fact, give her a couple EUREKA! moments.  I really do think shes slowly figuring herself out in many different ways. No mention of BPD, at least not out loud, but I think she may have stumbled across that as an option. Not planning on asking or even suggesting such a possibility. I think it's important she continue doing this part on her own... .it's making her feel empowered in a healthy confident way. Like she's taking control back from whatever demons she has.  Even made mention of the "hurt inner child"

As her boyfriend and often the target of her rages I couldn't be happier or more proud of the initiative she is taking on her own. I'm feeling really hopeful that she will continue down the path she needs to for herself... .and for us, of course.  Things are looking up. A part of me feels like I should cautiously be waiting for the other shoe to drop but... .for the first time in a long time, I think both feet are firmly on the ground!

[pearlsw]

Just to quickly echo Monucka, waverider wrote a great comment here that is well worth saving and rereading many, many times. Thanks for these insights!

[waverider]

pwBPD have a real fear of being controlled or "pushed". This triggers a rejection or run response. Hence it is important to guide rather than tell them what to do. It has to feel like their own motivation at work. They have to discover the penny dropping.

However be aware these insights are only allowed their day in the sun while their emotions and impulsive needs are having a day off. Once triggered these insights will get pushed off the stage and the toxic traits will have complete dominance. The cyclical swings have not gone they have just changed. You have to be ready for this otherwise it can push you further into despondency.

Also be prepared for these insights to potentially become distorted reasoning and used as an excuse to explain and validate some of the worse behaviours. Awareness can create guilty feelings after the fact, and so increase desperation to explain away. "I can't help it, I have XXX, I thought you said you understood, but you obviously dont care etc... "

It is these moments of insight that keep us hooked to the possibility that if we just deal with todays issues all will be fine again. The penny may drop but the reject slot has not disappeared

Keep yourself centered and dont get caught in the euphoric rush towards the mirage of instant recovery.  It is a long slog, and even then may be more a compromise of a tenable version of dysfunction.

[IsThisThingOn]

pwBPD have a real fear of being controlled or "pushed". This triggers a rejection or run response. Hence it is important to guide rather than tell them what to do. It has to feel like their own motivation at work. They have to discover the penny dropping.

I couldn't agree more. My upwBPD combats any possibility of being controlled or "pushed" by being the one to try and control/push everything first. I've found that a lot of times the worst periods of dysregulation begin with some sort of comment/moment that could have been perceived as an attempt to gain control over the situation/her.

I still havent figured out how to maneuver that since a lot of times, most of the times, it's me simply expressing my feelings towards something. In the past I had the attitude of "this is a problem, it makes me feel XYZ, how can we find a solution to this?" ... .it was almost always followed by hours, sometimes days, worth of complete dysregulation. Partially my fault since I would often times not say anything about how I was feeling in order to prevent any potential issues but eventually I couldnt tolerate whatever it was anymore and spit it out. Her thing was always "If you tell me right away instead of waiting days I would handle it better." -- So, now I do exactly that. Only problem is: I adjusted to meet what she expressed would help, however, I still end up feeling invalidated just as I always did. My approach changed but her reaction has not. I no longer suggest finding a resolution.

Is it still the incorrect approach to state how I feel followed by "I'd just like you to think about it. Let me know what you think the best path would be from here." ?

Also be prepared for these insights to potentially become distorted reasoning and used as an excuse to explain and validate some of the worse behaviours. Awareness can create guilty feelings after the fact, and so increase desperation to explain away. "I can't help it, I have XXX, I thought you said you understood, but you obviously dont care etc... "

Related to us she doesnt use her diagnosis/potential diagnosis because she hasnt reached a point where shes willing to acknowledge any of it. She has grasped that there IS something she needs to work through and I believe based off of certain statements shes made while discussing her "revelation" with me that she has stumbled upon BPD as a potential... .comments about the "hurt inner child" and what not. But she does, in the moment of her rages, blame me for all of the anger coupled with nasty comments/treatment... ."If you didnt do XYZ I wouldnt have to act like this! You're the ONLY person who makes me THIS MAD!". After the pot has boiled over and she finally comes back down she acknowledges the behavior isnt okay but immediately follows with "I just get so mad"

Recently, I've tried to subtly combat that with "I understand but we need to find a better way. I care about you and dont want to hurt you... .I imagine you dont want to hurt me either since you care so much about me, right?" -- That seems to ground her and turn the conversation around to "Yes, I dont like when I act like that towards you. It's not fair to you." ... .accept it as progress?

Constructive criticism/different approach options waaay welcome!


Boy, this stuff is like a game of chess. I was never very good at chess... .the computer always won!


- Dexter

[Jessica84]

It's more like playing chess where the other player changes the rules as they go! It's best to roll with the rule changes and adapt your strategy. What works one time may not work the next. I've learned to be more flexible and not try to "win" every battle. Sometimes winning is losing, and vice versa.

I've also heard it said "there is an order to this disorder". I find some comfort in that. Knowing there is a little predictability in what their next move might be helps us decide ours.

[IsThisThingOn]

It's more like playing chess where the other player changes the rules as they go! It's best to roll with the rule changes and adapt your strategy. What works one time may not work the next. I've learned to be more flexible and not try to "win" every battle. Sometimes winning is losing, and vice versa.

I've also heard it said "there is an order to this disorder". I find some comfort in that. Knowing there is a little predictability in what their next move might be helps us decide ours.

I really like this outlook. You're right about the winning... .there really is no satisfaction in winning any battle when the war is still roaring. I gave up winning a long time ago. Now I'm more focused on keeping the peace treaty active! .

I'm definitely starting to see that there is in fact an order to the disorder. I also recently had someone on here mention extinction burst. Took the time to read into what exactly that means. Still not entirely sure thats what this situation would fall under but it makes sense... .after the blow out ended there were still some residual comments here and there. Kind of tossed into conversations without their own "home"...

Today I'll be going to my house while she works (she does overnights). If you remember, it's this exact thing that caused the blow out I started this thread about in the first place. The night before last she really impressed me when she acknowledged how she realizes now that my hesitation with moving back in right now is because I'm scared and that her reaction and actions that followed the last time we discussed it deepened that fear.  Last night I received a lot of "i'm going to miss you" and a "I cant wait until this becomes a permanent thing where you consider THIS your home again" -- but no red flags of impending doom.

I've decided this is a good thing and plan on expecting it to stay this way. While also understanding it may not.  Expect the expected but dont live as if its already here!

Really appreciate all of your feedback... every poster on here. It really has helped a lot to interact with others who 'get it' ... THANKS!

- Dexter

[waverider]

Expressing how you feel occasionally is important, and having the confidence to do so is a win in itself. This is despite whether they interpret it as being all about them as a criticism regardless of how you do it. It is about grounding you, not them.

Even when they kick up about something you say, and completely dismiss it, they still hear it. It can still sow a seed, even if not visibly obvious. Hence the less you add to it the less the message can be hidden or misinterpreted. Arguing the point is simply a smoke screen that obscures the real message.

Not winning the moment is an important thing to keep hold of. This is one of the major dysfunctions of pwBPD they become immersed in the need to "not loose" in the moment, almost as if it threatens their very survival.

pwBPD motivators are very much driven by negative reactionary impulses. "Not loosing", "Not being controlled", "Not being criticised" etc. Hence they struggle to achieve as they are constantly disassembling rather than assembling. This is in contrast to Narcissists who try to win,control, criticise in a more proactive way and hence can often be higher achievers with a sense of entitlement.

This is not always obvious as a pwBPDs method of defence is often pre emptive offence. It is a perceived fear of "attack" that triggers it. Often driven by an element of paranoia.

[IsThisThingOn]

pwBPD motivators are very much driven by negative reactionary impulses. "Not loosing", "Not being controlled", "Not being criticised" etc. Hence they struggle to achieve as they are constantly disassembling rather than assembling. This is in contrast to Narcissists who try to win,control, criticise in a more proactive way and hence can often be higher achievers with a sense of entitlement.

This is not always obvious as a pwBPDs method of defence is often pre emptive offence. It is a perceived fear of "attack" that triggers it. Often driven by an element of paranoia.

I'm glad you mentioned NPD. My upwBPD definitely exhibits NPD traits. I've thought long and hard about whether I would place her NPD above her BPD and concluded (without proper diagnosis and strictly based on what I've seen and experienced) that her NPD is secondary. Winning is very important to her. Her criticism is often, not always, very well thought out and delivered with a purpose. Methodical. She is a very entitled individual although I struggle with deciding whether that has more to do with being an only child raised by parents/grandparents who consider her the be all-end all or if it is just another symptom of NPD. I suppose it could be both... .the up bringing feeding the narcissism. She's a very bright super intelligent bubbly person. Two masters degrees, many awards. High achiever is an understatement. Problem is: the second a whiff of "less than perfect" wafts in her direction in regards to her... .dysregulation is almost immediate.

There is definitely underlying paranoia. A constant need to know what people may be and/or are saying about her. In detail. She's been known to snoop through my phone always without my knowledge, never without being caught. Funny thing is, she often gets caught because something she finds (innocent things I might add) cause her such turmoil she rats herself out.

It's a tough one. I see all of the typical BPD reactions/symptoms. But the NPD is not far behind at all. She's got two dark passengers.

- Dexter