Resources for Covert Narcissist family support?

[LittleBlueTruck]

The more I am delving into this all, the more my therapist is saying she sees NPD as the dominant issue with my mom. I've read up on covert narcissism and it honestly seems like an exact fit. I do think she still has BPD because the perception of abandonment triggers almost psychotic behavior.

I am looking for high quality support resources like this website for NPD. You all have me spoiled! I joined a couple Facebook groups for family members of people with NPD and it's just nowhere near the quality of information available here.

Any suggestions?

[Turkish]

We just had someone post this resource:

If You Had Controlling Parents: How To Make Peace With Your Past

Do you see anything from the blog post (the reply) that you find helpful?

In just saw this,  and haven't read the book.  Caveat: my mother is squarely BPD, not NPD.

What kinds of narcissistic behaviors does she exhibit?

[LittleBlueTruck]

Thanks, Turkish. I recently read that article and it was really accurate.

Her behaviors... .do you have a year? I kid. But it is hard to say it succinctly. I never know how to summarize it because speaking in generalities doesn't much get the point across but sometimes specific incidences don't get it across either because there is so much backstory or some of the pathos is all in emotional undercurrents.

A few exemplar stories:

1) She regularly puts my children's clothing on backwards, fastens their diapers in strange ways, purposefully breaks things and repurposes them for what she believes to be a better use, makes strange and very unappetizing food combinations (that one could just be subjective), makes broad and sweeping factually inaccurate statements always prefaced by "it is well known... .", attempts to "fix" things and regularly breaks them and a host of other behaviors that are "wrong" in the sense that she deliberately flouts convention and insists her way is better and often ignores the obvious evidence to the contrary. So, kids squirm in uncomfortable clothing, diapers leak, our belongings get ruined, dishes get ruined by her mixing them, etc. And despite her "unique approach" and obvious evidence her idea wasn't the best, she remains resolute and stubborn and won't change and usually doubles down on it and because SUPER hostile if you even imply a criticism.

2) Since she has lived with us and I now see her behavior on the phone with others and her behaviors after hanging up with them, I see how incredibly fake and phony (har har) she is. Example: my sibling will have something going on, an illness or work stress, and she remains (at least to an outsider) visibly unaffected. Yet, she will get on the phone with them and say in a very theatrical and just "off" way that she has not been able to function because she has Brennan SO worried and now she knows everything is better / resolved, she will just go straight to bed because she's exhausted from the emotional turmoil the other person's struggle was causing. Baloney. She then hangs up and continues her day utterly unaffected. My guess is she thinks this is what empathy is but she's missing the mark and it comes off stilted and heavy handed because she does not actually know what empathy is.

3) She seems to genuinely relish when things go badly for me. Especially if the thing going south relates to a subject she considers herself an expert on. So, even if we haven't discussed it and she hasn't offered a conflicting opinion, if my approach fails, she is pretty nasty and gleeful about it. But then there is an added layer of what often feels like sabotage. Example: as part of potty training my son, we aren't using diapers at all and if he has accidents that's fine, it's all part of the process. My mom keeps sneaking diapers on him and now he's regressing in his skills. She gloats about this as evidence that I act like I know everything, but look, I am messing this up. I especially hate this, because I feel my son can pick up on this nastiness and it is attaching unnecessary strife around something that should be shame free.

4) She shows pretty callous indifference to her children's wellbeing, emotional and physical. I had a heart condition in pregnancy and when I first came home from the hospital after discovering it (she knew where I went and why I went), she met me at the front door and showed me a funny text from my brother (her golden child). She walked away chuckling at it, didn't ask me a word how I was doing. About 20 minutes later she rushed out, flustered, and made a show of asking how I was and telling me she had been sick with worry. Clearly, she had forgotten up until that moment where I had been. A different brother was recently impacted by the hurricanes and she didn't ask once how he was or attempt to contact him. No malice, just extreme indifference. When my daughter was sick recently and I was worried about her and said outloud I was worried about her fever the night prior, my mom out of nowhere said she would have been really traumatized if any of her kids had died as babies, and she couldn't imagine holding a dead baby, and she was just SURE she would have been blamed for it because people have been blaming things on her for her entire life.

There is so much more but I can't imagine anyone has the time to read all this! These are just random examples. Not even the most egregious, just some things that jumped out from recent memory.

[LittleBlueTruck]

A couple more major:

5) I don't think I have ever heard her genuinely apologize. Maybe once or twice when she has screwed up so majorly there is no way out. And each time, the policy came with her falling apart and going full pathetic so that the aggrieved person then has to comfort her.

6) I don't think she feels guilt. Ever. Which is odd, given that she has so masterfully woven it into the fiber of her children's being.

7) I think at the core of all of it, she is just broken and full of self loathing.

8) She makes elaborate plans for silly things and talks about them constantly and never ever ever follows through. I think, after years of ruminating on this behavior, it is perfectionism. She doesn't bother unless it will be literally the most perfect thing.

9) Weird thing, but she assumes always that people are exactly as hungry or cold as she is (or isn't). So even if I'm sweating, she'll insist I put on a sweater. And even if everyone in my family is hungry and I'm making dinner, if she isn't hungry she will tell me I don't have to cook... .that one especially makes me feel like I'm absolutely losing my mind.

[Turkish]

Oy vey... .you can't make that stuff up.  I agree with you about the self-loathing  (likely deep down). Interesting that she said she's been criticized her whole life.  Given her behaviors,  it leaves no room for discussion. 

Dealing with a mother,  in-law, or spouse who sabotages a parenting plan is maddening.

From this discussion on emotional immaturity:

Here are some characteristics of emotional immaturity from When the man in your life can't commit by David Hawkins:

4. Egocentricity Egocentricity is self-centeredness. It’s major manifestation is selfishness. It is associated with low self-esteem. Self-centered people have no regard for others, but they also have only slight regard for themselves. An egocentric person is preoccupied with his own feelings and symptoms. He demands constant attention and insists on self-gratifying sympathy, fishes for compliments, and makes unreasonable demands. He is typically overly-competitive, a poor loser, perfectionistic, and refuses to play or work if he can’t have his own way.

A self-centered person does not see himself realistically, does not take responsibility for his own mistakes or deficiencies, is unable to constructively criticize himself, and is insensitive to the feelings of others. Only emotionally mature people can experience true empathy, and empathy is a prime requirement for successful relationships.

People with BPD or NPD are abused children all grown up.  Even if we are adults,  a parent has an implicit authority over us,  and I think most of us struggle with this.  Does that feel right? What do you think are the next steps here?

Have you seen this?

DIFFERENCES|COMORBIDITY: Borderline and Narcissistic Personality Disorder

T

[LittleBlueTruck]

Fascinating thread! I just read through. The grandiosity is present with my mom but it is all so victim centered, which is why I think it is covert narcissism. She has also had for sure at least one basically psychotic episode in recent history when she thought we were kicking her out (my brother invited her to his house for a vacation). She lost time, couldn't pack, became fixated on the fear that we would go through her belongings, spent all her time hiding her belongings and then ended up packing a huge box of personal papers to take with her, convinced she would never get them back if I trashed her belongings. It was supposed to be a nice, pleasant visit and she just went totally off the rails.

The next step is we ask her to leave. Can't do it anymore. Can't be insulted over and over and over again in my own house. She's having a negative impact on me, my kids, my marriage - even my dog!

I don't know why, but looking at her illlness through the NPD lens gives me so much less guilt than looking at her illness exclusively though the BPD lens. She just really, genuinely, does not care about me or anyone else.

[LittleBlueTruck]

And that part you excerpted about egocentricity - spot on. Just totally spot on.

[Turkish]

This is a tough time.  My mother lived with me and my kids for about five months.  Sometimes it was OK,  sometimes it wasn't.  Then the paranoia set in.  I was going through her stuff. So were the kids,  stealing things.  They were then 4 and 6. There would be a mess on the floor if they did so.  My mother hid things too. I found a pack of cigarettes hidden in under clothes on the top shelf of my son's room.  My mother is also a hoarder  ("fear of loss" my T told me).

So what are your next steps? Separation might help calm things after a while. 

[LittleBlueTruck]

Turkish - from what I describe, what do YOU think? BPD? NPD? both? Neither? Perfectly normal and I'm the crazy one? (Cue clown music).

Accusing you and your kids of going through her stuff - sounds familiar!How did she end up leaving? Did you ask?

Next steps involve asking her to leave. Immediate steps after that include telling her she's leaving. It will be traumatic and awful until she does leave but I'd rather just rip the bandaid off.

Had an unsettling conversation with my husband last night about the effect all this has had on us. He sort of surprised himself at how much he resents it. He feels totally ignored by me. Which is valid. I have gotten lost in some of these resources because I finally feel validated and not alone.

After the initial insecurity when he told me, I thought more about it and told him no matter what, I will stick to my guns and get her out. He's the most stable and wonderful part of my life - why would I hurt him just to avoid pissing off the least stable and worst part of my life (who is a black hole of disapproval and will never be happy).

Move her out. Keep doing therapy a bit longer. Have an exit strategy out of endless self introspection and dwelling on old hurts. Live life. Be accountable. Be strong. Raise children with a strong sense of self and origin who can lead their own lives and not worry about me incessantly.

I can't go totally NC on mom because it feels wrong and she's financially
Dependent on her kids. But I no longer let her in share the things that make me truly happy, sad, or angry. She can't handle those emotions of mine without wanting to wreak havoc.

[Turkish]

I got a phone call from the local PD. They picked up my mom trying to board a train to go back to her home, which was the most unsanitary place imaginable.  So she forced the issue.  I took her back.