Meeting (met) with Biblical Counselor and the Senior Pastor

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I'll be back later today to let you know how it went.  

My big goal for today.  Is BC a "rogue" guy a the church or are his methods "endorsed" by the church?  This flows into a decision of is the church helping or hurting to stabilize my family.

FF

[formflier]

I'll be back later today to let you know how it went.  

My big goal for today.  Is BC a "rogue" guy a the church or are his methods "endorsed" by the church?  This flows into a decision of is the church helping or hurting to stabilize my family.

FF

[formflier]

Meeting went far better than I figured it would.

Senior pastor supported me on all of my "issues" that I brought up.  BC asked my forgiveness... .which I granted... .

There was an offer on the church's part to speak to my wife.

I left them with some questions to consider.  Likely I'll follow up in writing (email) with them after I've discussed this with P. 

This gist of my question to them is if they can "stay in their lane" and "just" talk about the Bible as it relates to our issues.   Also, if they would encourage my wife and I to seek help from appropriate... credentialed providers.


More later... .lot on my plate today.

FF

[Tattered Heart]

Do they understand that things go far deeper than just basic marital issues here? Or do you think her getting biblical counseling  would be more effective because of her receptiveness?

How involved do you want the church counselor to be? Will you set up steady accountability meetings or was this just a 1 time thing?

My church leaders got involved with my H a couple years ago. It didn't go as well as I had hoped in that they only met with him when he did something that could be potentially embarrassing to the church, such as arguing with other members or attacking leadership. I was a little frustrated that there was no follow up after my H had started to do better.

I have found excellent counsel for myself with a local deliverance ministry and women's small group. Are you in a men's small group? This could be a great resource for you to just be around other men and over time as trust builds, share your troubles.  And if your W is open to it, a women's group for her would create relationships that could help her too.

[Hisaccount]

I did the whole church counseling thing. The pastor was a licensed psychologist. Church was his part time hobby.

For the most part it went like any other counseling session. I try and she didn't. The only difference after going to see the pastor was that she didn't want to go to church anymore, anywhere. Because she didn't like the message after she understood it through the pastors eyes.

My ex always used to say she wished she lived in Renaissance or mid evil times. I got so sick of it. Finally one day I told her, no you wouldn't. You would have to actually have sex, and do work and you would get beat or beheaded for the way you treat me.
Last time I heard her say that.

She looked at biblical counseling the same way. Not understanding where two people respect and love each other, share and work together. She only sees the part where she is supposed to submit. The more she would push the issue he would revert to more strict scriptures. Trying to show her God's intention, but she took it as a personal attack and didn't think he understood God.

I think this will all boil down to her faith and how important it is to her. Though we are in a relationship, our relationship with God is completely individual. I hope she believes and is willing to do her part.

[Enabler]

My uBPDw is very religious and seems to have somewhat weaponized Christianity and the rescuing nature of many of the parishioners. She has always had a deep sense of being a victim, being controlled, trapped and threatened. The Church, especially more evangelical services appeals to the senses of us being in need of salvation, rescuing and unbound from the slavery of sin and entrapment. Rather than just seeing this as a teaching towards her own sin and bondage (guilt and personal shame) of which she has in abundance, she see's it as a calling to free herself from the captivity of her relationship with me. God fills the void where her mothers love should reside, it's apparent that she even fears God's abandonment and her leaking internal bucket requires more and more faith and commitment to god to keep her filled up with inner content. It's very easy to find people in the church willing to validate her feelings of entrapment and slavery by me, few people are trained or have the insight to be skeptical of a young woman who is clearly (and I'm sure very genuinely) afraid, upset and hurt by the feelings our relationship generate in her. It's not malicious on uBPDw's part and I understand it's as much a part of her inability to self reflect as it is the different reality she lives in... .but she uses the church to validate her actions and beliefs, these people are unhelpful (to me), as much as they preach on a Sunday that Divorce is bad, they don't condemn her it because when confronted with very real feelings from a young woman they are reluctant to tell her to go back into the lions den to make it work and suffer "the abuse" that she believes she's been enduring for so long. It's apparent that the slightly lax interpretations promoted by the Churches she attends of scripture enable her to translate small passages into whatever she wants them to mean in isolation, and justify her behaviors.

Like people my uBPDw tries on different churches to see if they match her feelings and emotions. When one Church fails to agree with her she changes Churches or moves on to a different parishioner to get validation for her victimhood.

Churches want to help, they want to rescue... .but on the whole they are woefully equipped to look through the surface cry for help to see the greater need for inner healing, inner healing that I'm afraid can never be healed by faith alone. One has to confront the wound/holes, heal and then fill up with unfailing, unfaltering love of Christ. I read a great book recently called 'Toxic Parents' where the writer makes some excellent points about forgiveness, many people try to forgive without confrontation and this only serves to internalize the wound, like a pressure cooking... .you own it rather than placing the guilt and shame with it's rightful owner. It becomes your responsibility to maintain forgiveness and therefore it becomes a short term patch.   

[formflier]

Enabler,

Very well written... .insightful. 

I've got meeting today with P, this will be one, if not "the" topic of conversation today.

The church "says" they are open to help.  In my opinion, they could play a positive role if they "stay in their lane" and let other professionals stay in theirs.

Hopefully will have more insight about this today.

FF

[Enabler]

FF,

What is "their lane?"

I get what you mean but maybe it's worth clarifying it in your own head before you go into the session tonight.

For me it feels like their lane is absolving people of the guilt and shame of actual sin in the knowledge that Jesus died on the cross to atone for our wrong thoughts and actions. Reassuring people that there is a everlasting life after death for all those who believe in Christ and that his Holy Spirit lives among us guiding and protecting us and never abandoning us.

The role of a therapist is to absolve people of their perceived guilt and shame which is not rightfully theirs and generated by abuse or poor wiring. It is their role to help correct maladapted responses to feelings and emotions such that the patient does not sin (in various forms) (as much) and has control over their actions so they have a better chance of living as the Bible instructs us to. It is their role to teach our loved ones to cope with human abandonment and allow them to feel safe in the knowledge they can protect themselves.

I probably should have finished on a high with the previous post.

[formflier]

 
Enabler,

Their lane would be restricting their comments and judgments to the Bible.

I get it that some things are clear "Thou shalt not... .xyz... "

Other things are debatable and generally accepted to be things Christians can agree to disagree on.  Perhaps they could guide a discussion to clarify each of our positions on those types of things.

Biblical counselors should stay out of medical issues and let appropriate professionals handle issues in their professional specialty.

The backstory on what I was complaining about to the senior pastor.  This BC (that I complained about) made a judgment that "there was no physical or mental reason I could not hold a job".  :)octors at the VA have rated me 100% Permanent and Total disabled.  MDs have... .well ... . a medical license.  The BC has a PhD in religion.

That is what "staying in your lane" means to me.

In addition the other two things I complained about was that on the day I got "kicked out" of Biblical Counseling for not being a "learner" the BC had made a statement that "this was the first I have heard of physical violence in the home".  I challenged him on it and ask that he clarify in writing this was not the case.  He refused.

Later in the same session he instructed me as part of "returning good for evil" that I should remain in my wife's presence when she gets angry and "use my physical size" to control things.  I challenged him on this and demanded he put his instructions in writing... in more detail.  He refused and kicked me out for not having a "learning spirit" or something like that.

Big picture:  It appears that this one pastor may be an "one off" at this church, as I've had above average relationships with other pastors there.  The senior pastor was supportive and the BC asked my forgiveness and admitted his wrongdoing.

Said plainly... the guy is an idiot.

Anyway... .hopefully that gives you a better idea of my idea of "stay in lane".

FF  

[Hisaccount]

That does not sound like a very good church counseling experience at all. Very sorry.

There are two sides to the biblical counseling approach as I see it.
One is to follow the letter of the bible saying, you are married, suck it up and work it out. This is his role, this is hers.
The other is more faith based. As in God can heal anyone or fix anything.

The best of course is a combination of the two. But both parties have to have faith, believe in God, be open and willing to make it work.

For someone with a mental condition that can be very difficult. But for me in my case, I prayed every day for my marriage. I asked that God either change her or change me.
As time goes on we all feel like he never heard us, or maybe he doesn't exist. We have doubts.
But he did hear me and he did answer me and his answer was perfect.

I think I see what you are saying about "their lane" We have doctors and therapists that are pretty amazing and God put them here as well for us to use as needed.

But look at it like this. If you are seeing a biblical counselor that doesn't pray with you or believe that God can heal you or your relationship or your wife, then you shouldn't be going to see him because he is a fraud and needs to examine his own faith.
It is too bad if your wife is playing the victim card, but try not to worry about it. God knows and a decent biblical counselor knows.

[Enabler]

FF, that sounds like it sucks on many many levels and although it's not overly outcome focussed I too would probably find myself pulling said BC up on their BS.

I have religious beliefs but have wavered in recent years due to certain things relating to my fathers death, whereas the same events led uBPDw closer to God. My cynicism towards the Church (as apposed to faith) and using your 30k ft approach has led me to observe that the Church attracts certain types of people. One group of people like the sound of their own advice and more importantly like people paying attention to their advice. It's very common to find someone who's more than willing to adopt the position of wise man and that same person is very often reluctant to have their "wisdom" questioned... .you found this dude. Said dude doesn't comprehend the phrase "I don't know about this and it's out of my knowledge set", he typically has a go at everything as he regards himself to be wise about all topics and disciplines. He doesn't realise the damage he does with his "advice/wisdom"... .I know this because my late father was a go-to "wise man" for the church and he didn't "get" mental illness. Don't get me wrong, I loved my father but the term "this is not for me" was not in his vocabulary. You have stumbled upon and extreme version of this, I wonder whether this chap has a view on quantum physics or the impacts of driverless cars?

The Church as an institution cannot and will not ever say that it doesn't have the answer to peoples problems, by it's very nature it cannot since for many people it's the end of the road, the last stop and the last hope. For my wife it's an invaluable source of validation and she will regularly find someone to validate the invalid, just because they're not prepared to say "I can't comment on that".
   

[formflier]

I tend to be a bit of a no it all as well.  However, I try to be conscious about when something takes a professional opinion.  CPAs... lawyers... .doctors... etc etc.

I've had lots of experience with those guys and will often advise people certain questions to make sure they ask... .to make sure the professionals have evaluated a situation "from this point of view"... or that... .etc etc...

Vice trying to say what exactly someone should do... .although in my mind I usually have a "If it was me... I'd do xyz... "

FF

[Hisaccount]

FF, that sounds like it sucks on many many levels and although it's not overly outcome focussed I too would probably find myself pulling said BC up on their BS.

And as well you should. The bible says test all things in light of scriptures. Simply means don't believe anything you hear in church or from a pastor without looking it up for yourself.

People are fallible, as is religion.

God is not.

The church I grew up in believed that if you cremated a passed loved one it was a sin. That they would have no body in the afterlife basically.
It's like really? The bible doesn't say that and you're telling me the God who created me in the womb, created the heavens and stars, cannot put me back together from a pile of ashes?
That is certainly not the God I believe in. It is not the God of the bible.

Unfortunately churches often operate as businesses. That is sad. It wasn't supposed to be like that and I am sorry you guys are having bad experiences with them.

 

[Enabler]

We forget that these are normal people, albeit we believe they are consecrated by God. Since most people I have spoken to have gone bogeyed whenever I try to explain the complexity of my relationship much of which contradicts what they "know" about my wife's social mask or her religious mask, it seems at odds to believe that other normal people should have greater insight just because they're churchgoers.

[empath]

IMHO, pastors shouldn't offer marital advice unless they have a good bit of training in counseling and are willing to be involved with both parties. They should be humble and able to admit that they are out of their league.

I have a situation with my husband's pastor and overseer who have offered advice to my husband and blame me for the lack of progress. They describe our issues as complex and believe my husband's descriptions and his facade. He believes that they speak for God.

Some people in church leadership are just bad at pastoring.

[Notwendy]

the Church attracts certain types of people.

Enabler, I am in your camp. A relationship with God is one thing, the way an organization manifests religion is different. The fact that there are so many different churches and religions- so many of them claiming that their way is the right way- is an example of how much this can vary.

A "church family" brings to mind one big happy family but it is a collection of different individuals all with their own needs and points of view. Some of these people can also be dysfunctional.

We have talked about the relationship with God in our 12 step groups- the God of our understanding. For some members, it is a devotion to their religion and for others it is finding something different from the way they grew up. Children form their concept of God on their parents at first. They are concrete thinkers. If God is "our Father" then they look to their parents for an example. If their parents are dysfunctional, then their God concept may be as well. They need to look at this differently.

We humanize God- we can't help it. Our own human thinking influences our relationship with God. If a person is dysfunctional with relationships, that can influence this. A dysfunctional person can have a dysfunctional relationship with God.

The BC and the Senior Pastor may have leadership positions in the church, but they are also two human beings with their own perspective and possible issues. I would say, considering the experience that happened - they may not be the ones to deal with your marital issues. Yet, there could be other benefits for your family in the church or not. Is it helping or hurting? I think you can decide that. Or, are the family issues bigger than any church can manage- and then the decision is - what is the purpose of going to church- community, a peer group for the children, education- but not marital therapy.

[Enabler]

FF, am I right in thinking that the BC is playing right into your SO's hands and validating the invalid that she believe's? This is clearly causing frustrations for you especially as she's unlikely to want to remove herself from this validation and in fact will hold it against you if you don't keep going. My guess is comments similar to "well you don't like it because he doesn't agree with you". My next comment is based on that assumption, but MC was similar for us, my uBPDw took ENORMOUS validation from the fact that the MC couldn't see past my wife's emotions and assumed there was nothing deeper causing her pain other than my "abuse". It has wholesale prevented her self reflection in the last 10m.

[formflier]

Enabler,

Yes...

The actual MC has been over for a long time.  For a variety of reasons, I had put "dealing with" BC on the backburner for a while. 

I should probably explain a bit more.  D7 has not yet accepted Christ and in recent months seems more tender and is asking lots of questions.  Likely a matter of time before she does and asks to be baptized.  There was zero chance I would ever allow her to be baptized at this church, without sorting out this issue and figuring out is BC a "one off" or if the belief is institutional.

At the moment, it appears "one off". 

More on this later, I had a good session with P yesterday where we discussed ideas on moving forward with defining the churches involvement and more importantly defining where they wouldn't be involved.

FF

[Enabler]

FF, this might sound a very obtuse question but it's one that I have definitely realised about myself... .

Do you feel the need to control your kids because you have no control of your chaotic wife?

[formflier]

 
No, I'm very much in the mold of a "coach" that "comes along side" their children.

Control comes by way of saying "no"... rarely but firmly... and lovingly. 

I answer her questions and I did ask her if she wanted to pray to ask Jesus into her heart... .and she said "No... .not right now... "  I stayed friendly and said "Ok... "  No pressure.

I do suspect their has been some pressure from my wife...

Also... .I've got 8 kids, so "control" is age appropriate. 

For instance, I've got two over 18.  Still in college.  Lots of my money/resources flows that way.  I speak frankly with them about their choices and my opinion and that it's ok to choose something else.

My Dad was big on making sure that I knew what he wanted me to do and why and he was just as big on me explaining to him what I was going to do and why... .even if it wasn't what he wanted.  The point was not control but thinking things through from different angles.

Anyway... I'm clear with my college kids "why" I am "investing" in their futures and what conditions would make me withdraw my support.

":)addy... .I've chose to date that guy with the weird piercings... .oh... and my hair is purple now... " (yet her grades are still up)... .she gets my support.

She is flunking classes... .the support comes away.

Hope all this makes sense.  It does to my kids

Did I answer your question?

FF

[Enabler]

110% sir

I observed I was trying to control the Children's 9/7/4 behaviour in an attempt to manage the inevitable stress generated from them which not only impacted me but encouraged my wife's emotional dysregulation... .which then came back to me anyway. Ironically it only proved to stimulate her trauma reenactment which meant I got the grief anyway, didn't stop the stress and alienated my kids instead. That has now stopped completely.