Why Inflict Pain on Others as a Response to Pain?

[Depression = 72% of members]

As I am rapidly reading and trying to assimilate all the information available (thank you for this), a question keeps popping up for me.  Why is my DIL so adept and quick to inflict pain on others, when pain and suffering are what she is reacting to?  I keep reminding myself that trying to apply logic to her behaviors isn't always possible; however, my mind reacts differently when the am the recipient of her meanness, thoughtlessness, manipulations, etc.  I find myself trying to rationalize the behavior (JADE?).  Right now, she is not speaking to me, which in turn, means I am not having contact with my son or grandchild, as she controls all socializing. I feel guilty about the relief I feel not having to monitor every word that comes out of my mouth for this time and am incredibly sad about this separation from the people I love while wondering how long this time and is the time the relationship ends forever?   

I know I am rambling, but it seems the more I read, the more I become confused.  I keep looking for rational reasons and logic and am having difficulty accepting there aren't any and stop it.  Do I make any sense at all? 

[auspicium]

As I am rapidly reading and trying to assimilate all the information available (thank you for this), a question keeps popping up for me.  Why is my DIL so adept and quick to inflict pain on others, when pain and suffering are what she is reacting to?  I keep reminding myself that trying to apply logic to her behaviors isn't always possible; however, my mind reacts differently when the am the recipient of her meanness, thoughtlessness, manipulations, etc.  I find myself trying to rationalize the behavior (JADE?).  Right now, she is not speaking to me, which in turn, means I am not having contact with my son or grandchild, as she controls all socializing. I feel guilty about the relief I feel not having to monitor every word that comes out of my mouth for this time and am incredibly sad about this separation from the people I love while wondering how long this time and is the time the relationship ends forever?   

I know I am rambling, but it seems the more I read, the more I become confused.  I keep looking for rational reasons and logic and am having difficulty accepting there aren't any and stop it.  Do I make any sense at all? 

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Auspicium, 

You are asking good questions,  and I can understand why it doesn't make sense what she is doing. I'm really glad that you are reading and learning. Kudos to you!  Don't forget to take some down time to rest your brain as you try to absorb.

I'm wondering If your DIL may be projecting? I'll post a link for you.

BPD BEHAVIORS: Projection

Let me know what you think. Basically they project on to others what they are feeling inside themselves.

 
Wools

[Turkish]

I asked my uBPDx once what went through her head when she was raging at others,  and she replied,  "because I want everyone else to feel my pain!" That told me enough.  I didn't continue the conversation. 

I won't paint myself as a saint,  but my number one core value is,  don't hurt others.  I could understand what she was saying,  but it turned my stomach. That being said,  a pwBPD has been described as "an abused child all grown up." The pain runs deep,  even deeper,  perhaps,  then those of us who were abused by borderline or narcissistic parents.  I can fathom the abuse (I know the stories of my mother and my ex well), but I can't fathom their abuse of others. 

[Enabler]

Here's a question, since my wife uses me as a projector screen for her projections and doesn't typically use friends and her FOO, can I deduce that it's because she cares about me, enmeshed etc etc. She's split me black and says she wants a divorce, but the very fact that she's projecting her self loathing and other negative emotions on me added to which she gives me mixed messages of her desire to completely separate... .is this a sign that she is still very much enmeshed with me? I'm comparing it to being held on a dog leash and being kicked in the head.

Before someone cleverly comes back and points out that there is no dog leash and I could walk away, I applaud you to realise that it's not always that simple to walk away from 20yrs, a woman you love and made commitments to, your home and 3 kids.

[momisborderline]

Here's a question, since my wife uses me as a projector screen for her projections and doesn't typically use friends and her FOO, can I deduce that it's because she cares about me, enmeshed etc etc. She's split me black and says she wants a divorce, but the very fact that she's projecting her self loathing and other negative emotions on me added to which she gives me mixed messages of her desire to completely separate... .is this a sign that she is still very much enmeshed with me? I'm comparing it to being held on a dog leash and being kicked in the head.

Before someone cleverly comes back and points out that there is no dog leash and I could walk away, I applaud you to realise that it's not always that simple to walk away from 20yrs, a woman you love and made commitments to, your home and 3 kids.

Wow Enabler, that dog leash/kicked in the head metaphor really resonates with me. I'm the daughter of an unBPDm and my mother is totally overly-enmeshed with me. So I relate very much to this. And yes, after 49 years of being her daughter, I agree it is not at all that simple to walk away from the people in our lives, whether they are our spouses or our parents. I never find it helpful when people say "well you wouldn't put up with this behavior from anyone else in your life," I always want to say, "well no duh, she isn't just 'anyone else' in my life."
Anyway, just wanted to say your post had a profound impact on me and I hope you are getting some support for what is a very difficult situation with no easy answers.

[Enabler]

Thank you Momisborderline, I'll take any praise I can get these days! I read a great book recently called Toxic Parents, literally couldn't put it down. I was trying to work out why my uBPDw hadn't been able to deal with her parents effectively even though she tried back in 2007. You may find the book of interest. Accepting the relationship for what it is, and in your case accepting that your mothers behaviours stem from BPD, might allow you to see parts of your mum you can love, parts you can tolerate and parts you don't have to tolerate at all. For my wife, she isn't aware that her mums behaviours tally well with either general emotional immaturity or more likely BPD, therefore she constantly strives for a relationship with her mum she's never going to be able to achieve on any consternation basis. I can't prove for certain as I can't mind read but it feels as though my wife has discounted the impact of her parents on her emotional stability and this decided I am the root of all evil. It's one huge projectionfest!

I might be deluded but being able to tie together behaviours with a cause is. Along it far far wasier for me and my T to rationalise the chaos. I now know it's not my guilt and shame to bear!

[Enabler]

Tiny iPhone = spelling disaster

[Woolspinner2000]

To me enmeshment and projection are two different things.

In projection we see the typical cutting and often hurtful feelings and words of a person coming out from them, illustrating their own personal insecurities or areas of fear that they struggle with. These projections are often used to deeply wound the recipient they are meant for. The projections can also be interpreted as 'defining' to the recipient, causing us to feel as if we ARE what the person says about us.

Enmeshment is a horse of a different color. My own illustration of how it felt to be enmeshed with my uBPDm was this: I likened her to an octopus with long tentacle arms that had suction cups on them. She'd use her arms to stick to me and cling and penetrate to my very soul, invading my privacy, emotions and very being. She was so attached to me that I did not exist, and it was if she fed off of me and found her identity in me. That is enmeshment. It is also frequently known as Co-dependency or leads to a codependent relationship.

There is another great article that encourages you to look deeper into some of what is going on behind the scene with projection and enmeshment:

BPD BEHAVIORS: Fear of Intimacy

Wools

[momisborderline]

To me enmeshment and projection are two different things.

In projection we see the typical cutting and often hurtful feelings and words of a person coming out from them, illustrating their own personal insecurities or areas of fear that they struggle with. These projections are often used to deeply wound the recipient they are meant for. The projections can also be interpreted as 'defining' to the recipient, causing us to feel as if we ARE what the person says about us.

Enmeshment is a horse of a different color. My own illustration of how it felt to be enmeshed with my uBPDm was this: I likened her to an octopus with long tentacle arms that had suction cups on them. She'd use her arms to stick to me and cling and penetrate to my very soul, invading my privacy, emotions and very being. She was so attached to me that I did not exist, and it was if she fed off of me and found her identity in me. That is enmeshment. It is also frequently known as Co-dependency or leads to a codependent relationship.

There is another great article that encourages you to look deeper into some of what is going on behind the scene with projection and enmeshment:

BPD BEHAVIORS: Fear of Intimacy

Wools

The octopus description is very reminiscent of my uBPDm's behavior with me.  About 2 weeks ago I went NC with her, I felt like she was suffocating me. I really believe at this point for my own mental and emotional well-being I have to be NC with her. Otherwise those long tentacles with the suction cups will do exactly what you described. Thanks for posting.

[Enabler]

I like that analogy as well. It's funny how the octopus encourages you to enmesh with them, demanding that you have absolute awareness of all of its activities and needs, then, all of a sudden releases, says you're controlling pointing to all your tenticles in her world that she herself demanded you have there. "How else was I supposed to avoid being yelled at? How else was I supposed to mind read?"

[auspicium]

Hi Auspicium, 

You are asking good questions,  and I can understand why it doesn't make sense what she is doing. I'm really glad that you are reading and learning. Kudos to you!  Don't forget to take some down time to rest your brain as you try to absorb.

I'm wondering If your DIL may be projecting? I'll post a link for you.

BPD BEHAVIORS: Projection

Let me know what you think. Basically they project on to others what they are feeling inside themselves.

 
Wools

Thanks Wools   I had to take some time, due to my health and it was a good break.  Your resources are spot on and very helpful.  My DIL first refused to talk to me, then made a condition that my son had to be present (which would have been fine), then suddenly wanted to meet the next day, which was yesterday.  She stated she had returned to her therapist she had five years ago, and she now needed our relationship to be different.  I listened to her and agreed with what I truly agree with and tucked away the things she was saying that I have questions about for a later time when I could think about what was said without the pressure of her presence.  I have to say, maintaining some objectivity on my part and disconnecting from personalizing her criticism was very enlightening.  Projection is right on, enmeshment is in a surgical stage at this point; however, I feel I am in a much better place to take care of myself at this point. 

Interesting to me is that my son's advice was that my DIL is not only her diagnosis, I am thinking perhaps a little projection here as well.  My DIL stated that her therapist, who she hasn't seen or spoken to in 5 years when she was in a full-blown crisis with my son leaving her and worked with her on her DBT Therapy, advised her (per DIL) that she is "barely Borderline" and simply needs to communicate better.  This is the same therapist that 5-years ago (per DIL) advised her not to go through with her plan to get pregnant at that time, as with her hormonal imbalances, in addition, to her DBT skills were very new and not yet rooted in habit.  Of course, she got pregnant.  DIL hasn't done any DBT work since she finished therapy and hasn't attended any support groups for ongoing support or growth.  I see an inconsistency in what I am being told is being said by the therapist.  However, it doesn't really have any bearing on what I need to do for me.

I really appreciate the feedback from all of you and pointing me toward specific resources, as I find the site a little overwhelming with so much information and only so much time in my life, .  Really it helps me to hear what your experiences have been and what you have found helpful.   The octopus analogy reminds of a time 13 years ago, early in their relationship, my son broke up with her and part of the reason was she exhausted him so completely, he wasn't keeping up with his college studies.  I stated that some people were energy vampires and when he was depleted, she would move on and feed on another.  He was so emotionally bankrupted at the time he agreed.  Now he would be outraged, at me. 

Thanks again, Y'all.

[Struggles]

Energy vampires, that is the perfect way to put it! 

It's so draining dealing with someone with BPD.  And it is possible that the therapist did say that your DIL was "barely borderline".  But, I have read that sometimes BPD is extremely hard to treat because the borderline can be very manipulative even in therapy.  i have read so much lately I can't remember which place I read that. 

I hope that she can continue therapy and hopefully she will be open and honest. 

I am so glad you have been working on yourself.  That is extremely hard to do in these types situations.  I have been trying to remember that I cannot control the hurtful things that are said and done to me, I can only work on myself and how they effect me. 

Sending you lots of hope for resolution and peace!

[ColdArrow]

You’re not rambling. These are thoughts we all carry as we try to wrap our brains around the behaviors of a loved one with BPD.  I don’t know that I’ll ever be able to fully understand, but posts like yours help me cope. The “meanness” is so hurtful because it is so baffling. With my BPD sister, I just try to be better at dancing around the verbal land mines. Doesn’t always work, but thank you and everyone here for the fellowship.  God bless.

[Lovingyouishard]

Enmeshment is a horse of a different color. My own illustration of how it felt to be enmeshed with my uBPDm was this: I likened her to an octopus with long tentacle arms that had suction cups on them. She'd use her arms to stick to me and cling and penetrate to my very soul, invading my privacy, emotions and very being. She was so attached to me that I did not exist, and it was if she fed off of me and found her identity in me. That is enmeshment. It is also frequently known as Co-dependency or leads to a codependent relationship.

I just read this now Wools, and it really speaks to my core. My uBPD mother have used enmeshment throughout my whole life. How did you break free from it? I have moved to a different country, keep boundaries up, but still struggle with it. When I feel low myself, my mother can really get to me and drag me down further... I try to avoid talking to her unless I feel strong enough for it. I just have a lot of anxiety before speaking to her, dont quite know how to get that to go away...

[Enabler]

Hey, I re-read your original post and reading between the lines you're wondering why she is venting against you?

I'm going to write on the assumption that this is the case and make a few more assumptions along the way for ease of making the point I think you're troubled by.

So you love your son and you can see that your DIL is not acting in a way you think is loving and caring towards him. You want to have a connection with your son and you don't see yourself as getting in between your son and your DIL. By the sounds of things you have done quite a lot of reading on BPD so you will know that sufferers are hypervidgelent to emotional threats and abandonment.  Also I'm sure you are able to empathise that many DILs have challenging relationship with their MIL just purely on the basis that mums will be mums and sometimes struggle to let go and want to continue to mother them.

If you want to help your son, and I think you want to help him more than you want to help your DIL (although you may well be helping her at the same time), I think you need to adopt some serious deep empathy for how your DIL may perceive you... .AS ONE GIANT HUSBAND EMOTION COMPETITION... .we have rightly talked about enmeshment above, this is your DILs utopia with your son, she wants to be completely wrapped up in him and him with her, until she doesn't of course... .and you are messing with this plan, she knows that your son is not completely hers and he still loves someone else. The pwBPD can't allow this at all. If they love someone else they may run back to mommy. This is about control, to make her feel secure. Your son has chosen this, he has choices and is not a victim. The last thing given the choices he has made is to have to have to make choices between you and her. I think you get this and are conscious that you don't make life harder for him. What I suggest and others may have further recommendations:

- accept that your son is an adult and is therefore responsible for the decisions he has made, that includes being and staying married to a pwBPD
- accept that you do not want to add to the complexity of your sons life by forcing your agenda
- tell your son that you will always love him but understand that he is between a rock and a hard place and that you don't want to add additional complexity to his life.
- do not outstay your welcome when you visit.
- focus your attention on building a relationship with her, find commonality, focus less on your son when she is around, this will reduce the amount you are perceived as a threat. Validate her. Add value to her life, pwBPD have a tendancy to be very self centred due to heightened emotional state of vigilance and resulting narcissism. Offer to look after the kids whilst they go for dinner or away for a weekend... .that kind of thing.
- never ever ever ever even think a critical thought about how she is doing anything in her presence, she already thinks you hate her and think she is useless... .because that's what she thinks about herself.
- compliment her achievements, her qualities... .whilst avoiding being patronising
- avoid showing off or taking attention... .even if your grand kids say "oh this is not as good as grannies cake"... .she's going to hate you, even just a little bit.
- avoid adding to your sons FOG... .mainly the OG is going to apply with mothers, he feels obligated to do things you want and make you happy, and will feel guilty if he can't... .be aware he already has plenty of this from his wife and doesn't need any more.
- if you can spend some time with DIL on her own, great, but again, maybe have a reason you can't stay all day so it has a finite end without being awkward or sounding like you are going off in a huff... .short and sweet initially.
- RADICALLY ACCEPT THE SITUATION AND ADOPT RADICAL EMPATHY FOR YOUR DILS CHAOS

I realise the list above sounds impossible, but your son has made his choices. He has shown that he will choose her (rightly so since he is married and should leave his father and mother to be with his wife and be one with her) he feels a sense of duty no doubt, if you want to support him and help him make this work... .and he really really NEEDS your support and understanding, you need to adopt the above. I recommend that you discuss with your son such that he knows that you are there for him but understand the position he is in and do not want to add to the complexity of his life.

This isn't ideal, it sucks a lot but this is how it is, you either fight it or work with it.

Now that's rambling!

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Lovingyouishard, 

How did you break free from it? I have moved to a different country, keep boundaries up, but still struggle with it. When I feel low myself, my mother can really get to me and drag me down further... I try to avoid talking to her unless I feel strong enough for it. I just have a lot of anxiety before speaking to her, dont quite know how to get that to go away...

Great question! One that I can so totally relate to. My uBPDm passed away right after I had the courage to start T and felt I was ready to begin working on my childhood. But never fear, I still have great examples to share with you though because I learned the enmeshment so well that I didn't realize I merely replaced my mom with someone else!   In this case, I became quite enmeshed with my dear husband (DH).

It takes time to untangle oneself from the octopus entanglements. It is hard to pull those clinging arms away from us and step away. Being in T helped a lot, with my T constantly, patiently, and kindly asking me, ":)o you have to ask him (DH) what he thinks or can you decide yourself? Does it really matter what he is feeling when you feel responsible for how he reacts or can it be that he has a choice as to how to respond? Do you have to fix it?" and so on.

I remember really well that I felt closer to DH when I was entangled and Co-dependent than when I began to step away. You see, the entanglement provided a certain sense of security because I knew how to operate within those familiar walls, even though they were super unhealthy. Do you think it is healthier to walk beside someone to support them or to be all dependent upon one another to hold up whatever is falling apart?

There was a wonderful word picture that I read someplace that helped me a lot. If I imagined myself swimming in deep water and my uBPDm was also there (or DH) and they couldn't swim, they would be clinging to me, trying to hold on to me so that they didn't drown. The truth is that both of us would drown that way, so in my mind I had to imagine myself swimming away to save myself and let them learn how to swim on their own. I could feel the looks of death aimed my way, and the calls to come and save them and how selfish of me, but I could not save them, and I certainly wasn't saving myself by trying to help them either. I had to begin to swim on my own. I got stronger the farther away I got from the emotional demands placed on me. Does that make any sense?

 
Wools