How to get out of this triangle?

[kiwigal]

Bit of background..
I have messaged here many times. After inviting my in-laws into discussion and getting a mixture of avoidant and blaming responses, I landed here at this amazing BPD site where I realised why I was experiencing so much confusion.
I realised that talking with a BPD was not ever going to go well. They didn't want to talk, and had every excuse under the sun. So I stopped pulling on my end of the rope, and decided that I would use BIFF - withdraw my invitation and re engage with polite and friendly conversation that is light, breezy, and emotionally disengaged. Thats what Ive been doing.
It has worked for me, really well. And its been freeing!
But...

The other night my hubby got a text saying that there is an email on its way, regarding my invitation to talk...(don't get me started on how this communication works, with my sovereignty being invisible).. along with a message that this email will include possible dates for their wedding anniversary celebration. 

We have already stated previously that they are welcome to send us an invitation for the anniversary, and we will make arrangements to be there.
With regards to talking.. I don't want to talk. I sent the invitation back last year, in August/September, so 9 months ago, and it's just gone on and on. Finally in March, I withdrew the invitation and felt instantly lighter and freer.

For some reason, however, that whole situation, and knowing my "No" has once more, not been heard, sends me into a state of distress. This seems to be a pattern of BPD people? They create arenas of drama and it's not 'if' but 'when'. 

I need some help. How do I reiterate that I have backed out of talking, without saying why. The "why" for me, is because I recognise that as a BPD, and a BPD co dependent, that they are a dysfunctional unit and it's impossible to ever change this, or engage in way I will feel heard and understood. So I have grieved that and reached a place where I am happy to have shallow boundaried relationship...
But I cant say any of that... however... I need to give a 'why' that is easy to swallow.

HELP

[kiwigal]

Ive been chewing over all day the pain Ive been feeling (and posted about this below).. but Ive been able to clarify the issue;
My MIL constantly triangles me with my spouse.
After asking her to talk, and then her giving every excuse as to why she couldn't, she then got my FIL to talk to my spouse and she said she was"very broken" and no longer engaging with this situation.
I finally withdrew the invitation using BIFF.
She responded with something along the lines of "thats sad" but that was the end of it.
Mixed into all this, was their wedding anniversary, which they postponed because we apparently implied we wouldn't be there. We clarified that when they were ready, to give us the dates, and we would make the necessary arrangements to be there.

Since then Ive just maintained aloof but safe contact. Its been about 5 weeks.

She then sent my husband a text message, two days ago, which read "we have an email ready for you both re (Kiwigals) invitation and a possible celebration date - just a couple more details to sort"..

I just feel so done on it all. I know that whatever is coming, is more along the same rhetoric, but I feel angry that Im being engaged with, in this way... it's so positioning.
What ends up happening, is that I am left voiceless and made to look impossible, and my hubby ends up having to make sense of it all. She portrays me as being the persecutor.

I need some help.. I really don't know how to respond, or even if I should? I didn't leave anything open to respond to, in my invitation.. and she isn't even engaging with me, directly, despite texting me just a few days ago! It's like, whenever its something that my voice matters, she writes to my husband, but not me. And although my husband is just such a honey, and dearly loves me, and wants to get it right... I end up feeling so abandoned by him because he lacks the clarity of insight to a) see it coming and b) respond in a way that backs me.

I know, thats a lot of emotion ... I just really need some comraderie and perspective on what I should do, to respond to this coming email.

[Panda39]

Hi kiwigal,

I'm having trouble following the story, I know you're venting and I can hear the conflict but I'm not sure what is going on. 

Who invited who to what?

I can also see the triangulation by your MIL having your FIL be her mouthpiece talking to your husband when it sounds like she should be talking directly to you.  Does your husband understand that he was being put in the middle?  Would he be willing to tell his dad when this kind of dynamic happens again that rather than the two of them talking he should have MIL contact you directly?  What if they FIL/Husband took themselves off the triangle?  Or you can remove yourself and let your Husband deal with his mother.

One of the things I've learned is that we can not control other people.  Your MIL is gonna do what she's gonna do.  You know that things aren't working as they are now, you can't make your MIL do something she doesn't want to do, so the question then becomes what can you do to change things from your end. Where is your husband in all of this?  A united front would likely be helpful.
Are there boundaries you can set? Like can you set a deadline to RSVP the invitation?  If the issue is between you and your MIL that your husband not get in the middle.  If the drama escalates that you take a time out from it.  Where do you think you can make changes?

In terms of the email, why not share here we can take a look at that specifically and give you some ideas.

Hang in there,
Panda39

[Notwendy]

Keep in mind that while you can see the dysfunction in your H's family, he may be aware but not so clear about the dynamics in his family and his role in it. This is because this is the family he was raised in. It was his "normal". He also has an emotional stake in his role, that he may not be fully aware of as he's been doing this since he was a child and it's second nature to him.

There's also a high price that he would have to pay ( not you) for not being in his usual family role. Family dynamics are such that the family tends to keep an emotional "balance" between all the members. It may be a dysfunctional balance but it is a balance. You have probably seen this with your FIL who tends to enable and keep MIL as calm as possible ( by giving in to her ).

It took me a long time to understand my role in my family and the roles of the other family members. For a long time, I perceived my BPD mother as the one with the problem and the rest of us as not having her problem. We didn't have BPD but when I faced my own co-dependent behaviors ( that were basically "normal " for me), I was able to understand my father's co-dependent behaviors and how this all fit into my family.

When one family member doesn't "go along" with the family pattern, the balance is undone and the family members feel discomfort. This isn't their normal. It can cause all kinds of issues in the family and also they can get angry and even cast out the "offending" member, but first they try to reel them back in.

Your H can be experiencing tremendous FOG ( Fear, Obligation, Guilt) when summoned back into his role. He may not even be aware of it. He just knows he's out of line and feels upset.

Of course he loves you and knows that marriage means moving from family to spouse and making a new family. He's chosen that, and he intends to stand by that. However, it is very hard to shake off approximately 30 years of learned behaviors from growing up in a dysfunctional family, even if he isn't dysfunctional himself. He needs to learn some new behaviors with his family but they may not be done as well or easily as you can do them, because he's grown up with them.

For me, I deal with my BPD mom and family ( my H is perfectly happy to stay out of that! ). And I also have learned to stay out of his family drama which at first didn't appear to be as crazy as mine.

Over time though, I could see some family patterns and his role in them that he could not see, and there was no convincing him until he experienced the full brunt of it himself. We sometimes visit our families together and sometimes not. Sometimes we each agree to "take one for the team" and go together even though I don't enjoy seeing all his family members and I know he'd rather not see some of mine. The most important part is that you two are a team on this. Your families won't change. You two just need to come to some agreement on what you two will do.

An example- my H has a family member who drops in on us to stay for a few days unexpectedly. He could not say something about this to this person. If I brought up that it was rude to not give us notice, he'd defend his family. Even the kids were complaining about the intrusions and he'd still defend his family member. Finally--- finally- he got annoyed too and told the family member to give us notice before dropping in. Yes, it took a while,  but this was the best way for him to learn, as he didn't "see it" until he did. Get off the triangle and let your H deal with his mother. As long as you are doing this, he may not see the need to.

[No-One]

Hi Kiwigal:
You likely had a peaceful 5 weeks, without discussion about the anniversary party.  Why not stay detached and let the ride continue? Sounds like you may be resuming ruminations and picking up where you left off 5 weeks ago.  
Why are you choosing to go there?

I remember some of your prior posts.  Some things in this post jumped out at me.  Just wanted to point out some areas that you might want to think about.  
 

My husband is just such a honey, and dearly loves me, and wants to get it right    

The same "honey" of a husband is trying to be a "honey" of a son as well.  No matter how much you detest your inlaws, you are waging a war you won't likely win.  You won't likely change your husband or your inlaws.  

I think you are fortunate to have such a great husband.  I'm thinking he may be caught in the middle of a tough situation in trying to please both you and his mother.

Restrict yourself to the following choices:

• You can choose to attend the celebration
• You can choose to not attend
• Your husband can attend without you
• You can make a brief appearance and then let your husband stay for a more lengthy attendance.

It's like, whenever its something that my voice matters, she writes to my husband, but not me. . .I feel angry that Im being engaged with, in this way...it's so positioning.  What ends up happening, is that I am left voiceless and made to look impossible

You can't change your MIL and the family dynamics.  The person you can change and control is you.  Your MIL isn't able to relate to you in the way you want.  You have to accept that and quit taking it personal, or stay miserable.

You can choose to get out of the triangle and stay out.  Continuing to ruminate about the desire to receive direct communication from your MIL, is not in your best interest.  If she complied, you would likely stay in a triangle.

Why does your voice matter so much to you in regard to the anniversary celebration?  You have chosen to give it so much power, but you can choose not to.  You can just let your husband interact directly with his parents, and stay out of it (even stay out of engaging with your husband about his personal phone calls, texts and emails with his parents).  Your husband can check with you before committing to anything that involves either of you.

I end up feeling so abandoned by him because he lacks the clarity of insight to a) see it coming and b) respond in a way that backs me.    

Your MIL wants to interact with her son.  She doesn't want you to be a gatekeeper of her son.  You can accept that, put that in perspective and quit letting it bother you, or you can continue to be miserable.  You control the outcome.

Do you have some abandonment issues from your past? 

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[kiwigal]

[quote author=Panda39 link=topic=336353.msg13051632#msg13051632 date=1557403838
Hi kiwigal,

I'm having trouble following the story, I know you're venting and I can hear the conflict but I'm not sure what is going on. 

Who invited who to what?]

So Id invited them to talk, back in September last year.. *them* as my MIL and FIL together, because thats a core value to them. Communication went back and forward about how they dont understand and cant talk and finally I was told that my FIL was taking over. "Thank you for appreciating my present poor mental health. It is for this reason Dad feels he needs to be the communication channel, and wants to stand for both of us at this time, ... Apart from arrangements/plans etc I'll not text/email anymore but leave things to dad."

Thus, recognising that this was triangulation, and the definite not wanting to talk.. I responded to say "Thank you for responding to my text message. To clarify, the invitation was to talk with you both, in a safe setting, so there could be understanding, and to set goals for going forward. I think this could be a positive experience as you’ve expressed you don't understand me, and I'd see it as beneficial for mutual needs to be considered.
Since you have expressed how you are tired and broken, of course I respect that and; along with your need to heal, and so I withdraw my invitation at this time."


[I can also see the triangulation by your MIL having your FIL be her mouthpiece talking to your husband when it sounds like she should be talking directly to you.  Does your husband understand that he was being put in the middle?]
Yes he can see it, but I think feels so unsure about how to handle it.

[Would he be willing to tell his dad when this kind of dynamic happens again that rather than the two of them talking he should have MIL contact you directly?  What if they FIL/Husband took themselves off the triangle?  Or you can remove yourself and let your Husband deal with his mother.]
One of the struggles that he faces, is that words get turned around on him. In the heat of the moment, he gets interrogated. So I think that the safest thing is, like you said, I need to remove myself. Thats really good advice, thank you.

[One of the things I've learned is that we can not control other people.  Your MIL is gonna do what she's gonna do.  You know that things aren't working as they are now, you can't make your MIL do something she doesn't want to do, so the question then becomes what can you do to change things from your end. Where is your husband in all of this?  A united front would likely be helpful. ]
This is so good. I do okay at times.
But recently the communication, and lack of it, has really reiterated how we have been 'culled' from the family. Im not sure I'll ever know why, because honesty is a sin to them. You just don't talk or raise issues, in their family. Instead you silence, withdraw, punish. Ive been really grieving that loss again.

And in the midst of it, my MIL sent the latest message.. "We have an email almost ready for you both re (Kiwigals) invitation and a possible date for celebrating our wedding anniversary".. and it poured into those grief places of not belonging in the family, but being expected to show up to family celebrations and feel okay about it - what's more - these celebrations being held at my SIL house.. who there is unresolved conflict with.

[Are there boundaries you can set? Like can you set a deadline to RSVP the invitation?  If the issue is between you and your MIL that your husband not get in the middle.  If the drama escalates that you take a time out from it.  Where do you think you can make changes?]
Id like to reach a place where I feel comfortable to show up to family occasions, and not feel so triggered by how little they respect me. Im not there yet. I still feel so very much like they don't deserve to have me there.
I still feel angry that they think it's okay to judge, criticise, alienate and malign me, behind my back, and then expect me to turn up and act 'normal'.
Really, Id just rather not go and make up an excuse and let them do whatever it is they intend to do, with my decision.

Thanks Panda for letting me thrash this out.
[/quote]

[kiwigal]

Keep in mind that while you can see the dysfunction in your H's family, he may be aware but not so clear about the dynamics in his family and his role in it. This is because this is the family he was raised in. It was his "normal". He also has an emotional stake in his role, that he may not be fully aware of as he's been doing this since he was a child and it's second nature to him.

There's also a high price that he would have to pay ( not you) for not being in his usual family role. Family dynamics are such that the family tends to keep an emotional "balance" between all the members. It may be a dysfunctional balance but it is a balance. You have probably seen this with your FIL who tends to enable and keep MIL as calm as possible ( by giving in to her ).

This is so helpful for me!
You really made me stop and think. My husbands role, has been 'peacekeeper'. Nothing goes deep. Nothing is felt. Everything is just facts and getting on with business. But as he has leaned into his feelings, the anger has surfaced, and instead of always keeping the peace, he has been backing me, and also letting his pain and disapproval be known.
And you're right - the spin off is that it's upset the balance.

So my MIL is trying to readdress that balance by triangulating me - making me out to be the one causing disruption, and easing hubby back into that place of peacekeeping at all costs. In order to do that, she bypasses me and goes to him. She addresses "us" but she makes sure its hubby, that has to feed me the painful information, rather than engaging with me directly.

I really need to think through whether or not, not attending this family function, is the answer or not.

[Cloudy009]

I think I'm following this ok. I think you said it all with  "BIFF - withdraw my invitation and re engage with polite and friendly conversation that is light, breezy, and emotionally disengaged".
I actually don't know what BIFF is and wanted to ask?

What you said after is exactly how I came to have any relationship with my BPD Mom. Man will borderlines test this and boundaries and my Mom still gets thru sometimes.
Yesterday I talked to her in a bad mood. It was awhile since I spoke with her and I had my guard down about a family member I was upset with and man did she love that and its prob gonna come back to haunt me because she will prob get in an argument with them and repeat what I said and say she agrees.

Its hard because we have normal human emotions where we want to work things out and we want to talk openly even with the borderline in our lives but we can't so that how they get in.
Your relationship with your mil sounds toxic based on what you say of her behavior. I don't think you will ever be able to get thru to her, work things out or change her behavior. It shouldn't matter what their values are. What are yours? Hopefully to distance yourself from bad behavior like you first stated so nicely.

 Coming from such  abusive homes myself I didn't know how to find out kind loving people until now later in life. You are lucky you have such a good husband.I would focus on that relationship and leave his parents to him. Just be your polite loving self at a distance. Thats all you can control.

[kiwigal]

Hi Kiwigal:
You likely had a peaceful 5 weeks, without discussion about the anniversary party.  Why not stay detached and let the ride continue? Sounds like you may be resuming ruminations and picking up where you left off 5 weeks ago.  
Why are you choosing to go there?

Yeah good point. I think stay disengaged was working well.. and perhaps I just let go any of the 'hooks' and stay out of it.

I remember some of your prior posts.  Some things in this post jumped out at me.  Just wanted to point out some areas that you might want to think about.  
 The same "honey" of a husband is trying to be a "honey" of a son as well.  No matter how much you detest your inlaws, you are waging a war you won't likely win.  You won't likely change your husband or your inlaws

.  

True, addressing role changes is hard work and I know my hubby doesn't feel the need to be a "honey" son, but I also know the consequence for him, not keeping the peace is high; we are basically disowned in the family. That hurts.

I think you are fortunate to have such a great husband.  I'm thinking he may be caught in the middle of a tough situation in trying to please both you and his mother.

Restrict yourself to the following choices:

• You can choose to attend the celebration
• You can choose to not attend
• Your husband can attend without you
• You can make a brief appearance and then let your husband stay for a more lengthy attendance.

You can't change your MIL and the family dynamics.  The person you can change and control is you.  Your MIL isn't able to relate to you in the way you want.  You have to accept that and quit taking it personal, or stay miserable.

Good point. I do want to stay within my circle of control and not let them impact on my happiness. Im in a grieving place, which I guess, as other moderators have pointed out - is normal. Healing isn't linear. Right now, placing my raw emotions into that arena, is high risk for me. So perhaps just attending briefly, is the safest bet.

You can choose to get out of the triangle and stay out.  Continuing to ruminate about the desire to receive direct communication from your MIL, is not in your best interest.  If she complied, you would likely stay in a triangle.

Thats a valid point. I never saw stepping out of direct communication, as being staying out of that triangle too. Thats really great! Thanks, that helps with my relationship with my SIL too!

Why does your voice matter so much to you in regard to the anniversary celebration?  You have chosen to give it so much power, but you can choose not to.  You can just let your husband interact directly with his parents, and stay out of it (even stay out of engaging with your husband about his personal phone calls, texts and emails with his parents).  Your husband can check with you before committing to anything that involves either of you.

I like this. We agreed recently on this and so this is valid.  

Your MIL wants to interact with her son.  She doesn't want you to be a gatekeeper of her son.  You can accept that, put that in perspective and quit letting it bother you, or you can continue to be miserable.  You control the outcome.

I absolutely accept this, I also know that she has zero regard for my sovereignty and that Im viewed as an extension of my spouse. So the challenge for me is, not that she interacts with him, but that she wont talk to me, where she should.
For example, it was me that expressed I was unhappy with the talking going on behind my back, that confronted her, elicited a confession (without an apology) and asked her to hear why that created a problem for me. She has no ability to accept any culpability (BPD trait) and thus, goes into triangulation and avoidant patterns.
The bottom line I reached was that I couldn't stop the family talking about me behind my back, but I didn't have to pretend I was okay, or that I would do deep relationship.
So I don't have a problem if she wants to talk with my hubby, but I do have a problem with her re-engaging with my initial invitation with my hubby, instead of me.

Do you have some abandonment issues from your past?

I have come from a strongly attached family that is very connected. Hence, these attachment issues in his family, create a lot of pain for me.
I have felt abandoned by him in the past, and he knows that- he really gets that there have been times he needed to stand up for me, where instead, he has kept the peace. I understand why.. upsetting the peace unleashes the fury. But it's painful sometimes for me, and has cost me too. As Im human, I think feeling the pain of that sense of abandonment, even while holding understanding, is normal.


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[kiwigal]

I think I'm following this ok. I think you said it all with  "BIFF - withdraw my invitation and re engage with polite and friendly conversation that is light, breezy, and emotionally disengaged".
I actually don't know what BIFF is and wanted to ask?

What you said after is exactly how I came to have any relationship with my BPD Mom. Man will borderlines test this and boundaries and my Mom still gets thru sometimes.
Yesterday I talked to her in a bad mood. It was awhile since I spoke with her and I had my guard down about a family member I was upset with and man did she love that and its prob gonna come back to haunt me because she will prob get in an argument with them and repeat what I said and say she agrees.

Its hard because we have normal human emotions where we want to work things out and we want to talk openly even with the borderline in our lives but we can't so that how they get in.
Your relationship with your mil sounds toxic based on what you say of her behavior. I don't think you will ever be able to get thru to her, work things out or change her behavior. It shouldn't matter what their values are. What are yours? Hopefully to distance yourself from bad behavior like you first stated so nicely.

 Coming from such  abusive homes myself I didn't know how to find out kind loving people until now later in life. You are lucky you have such a good husband.I would focus on that relationship and leave his parents to him. Just be your polite loving self at a distance. Thats all you can control.

These words are BALM to my soul! YES.. I really do feel like my MIL is toxic and I so appreciate you reaffirming that Im on the right track. I loved this line "I would focus on that relationship and leave his parents to him. Just be your polite loving self at a distance. Thats all you can control. " Thank you!

[Cloudy009]

Kiwigal Glad I could help. Could you tell me what what BIFF stands for? I'm always curious to know more tactics of how to talk to someone with BPD.

[kiwigal]

Sure
Brief
Informative
Firm
Friendly

Its been so helpful!

[GaGrl]

So I am unsure...who will reiterate to the OLd that you had withdrawn your offer to talk, and all you are waiting o now is the invitation? Just wondering how you anticipate doing this without further triangulation.

[kiwigal]

So I am unsure...who will reiterate to the OLd that you had withdrawn your offer to talk, and all you are waiting o now is the invitation? Just wondering how you anticipate doing this without further triangulation.

Im not sure what Old stands for.. can you help me?
But yes! I totally agree with you! Ideas?

[Notwendy]

I can understand your frustration. With regards to the issues in my H's family, I eventually had to just let go of them and let him deal with his own family roles and issues. If I were to step in, I became the "bad guy". If I didn't get involved then the situation was between him and them, and if they irritated him enough, he'd need to do something about it.

Granted, compared to my BPD mother, his family looked so much more "normal" to me and they are, but normal is relative- maybe nobody's family is "normal". His mother doesn't have BPD but she's co-dependent and there are some odd dynamics. In my H's family, his role is similar to your H's.

I can relate to feeling abandoned as well by my H. I haven't been in a triangle with his family but he will jump into action to be the good guy even at our inconvenience and if I say anything, he will defend them, not me.

I think things have improved over the years as he deals with them and feels his own limits out. I don't know of a way to change this other than through this learning and personal growth. I understand where you are coming from, but somehow, it seemed more effective for me to step away from this and let him manage it than to try to intervene.

[Panda39]

Cloudy,

A link to more on BIFF...

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=134124.0

Panda39

[GaGrl]

Im not sure what Old stands for.. can you help me?
But yes! I totally agree with you! Ideas?

Sorry...darn autocorrect. I meant MIL.

My curiosity was...if the invitation to talk was withdrawn by you, then the email to respond to that withdrawal, along with the notice of the celebration/RSVP, went to your DH...who responds to the in-laws, and how? (In order to avoid triangulation.)I

I'm thinking about this.

[nomodrama]

kiwigal,

I like this sentiment a lot: "You have to accept that and quit taking it personal, or stay miserable." Sorry I don't know how the excerpts thing works.
I also relate with what you said about 'too high risk' for you. The went No Contact with my pwBPD sister only one month ago. In this short time so far my conclusion is that I had anger and rumination to get over and grieved the loss but I also realize that that loss was not as great of a loss as the consequences that staying in the relationship was having on my health and happiness. My physical and mental health were being impacted by her illness. I was taking on her bad energy. Not sure the official words for this are but I think she was trying to pass on some of her emotional pain onto me. Since I blocked her phone # it has been SO quiet. I went for a walk in the woods the other day and I was HAPPY and thought to myself that this is the way I want to feel, not in some drama triangle with her and my brother constantly on the text and phone. I feel like I have loving husband and friendships and loving in law family, I don't need my sister's bad energy and dragging me down. I pretend I am an only child ( I basically was as they are 11 and 13 years older than me). I guess the jest of what I am trying to say is that I can relate to your story with the wanting things to be different and then days of rumination that it is not, it is not worth it, too high risk for my health and sanity. I don't need a family member with BPD. I am lucky I can disengage. I also hold onto this: "What other people think is not my business" and I try to Let it Go (some advice I got here too Any negativity is more about them than me. I am at peace with who I am and I am being true to myself first. Love yourself first. Put your own oxygen mask on first. No contact has worked well for me. Also "No contact in my mind" as rumination about it is still a level of contact. You can choose to not think about it and choose to not ruminate and wish. I was choosing to be anger and now I choose not to. Best wishes to you. I hope you find some peace