Isolating me more

[5xFive]

My uBPDh does not like my mom. At all. He thinks she suffers from NPD. During my research into the subject and discussion with my T, I have determined it is probably not NPD, she can just be ignorant and selfish at times. When our s7 was 4, he asked her to not discuss religion with him. She told him she couldn’t stop, that her faith demands she spread the word. A huge blowout occurred. I tried to explain to her how important this is to him. That religion is in our parental purview and whether she agrees or not, she needs to respect that or he’s going to deny her from seeing the kids. She has been painted black all this time.
Recently, I lost my job and started working for my moms company. She pays me about 1/4 of the income that I need for my half of our bills so it is pretty significant. She is not allowed in our house, she’s been in it maybe 4 times in the last 1.5 yr and she lives only 2 mi away. (I think part of this is that he is embarrassed by the number of holes in our walls and doesn’t want her to see them) I have to struggle with him to see her and it often causes him to dysregulate. He thinks that I choose her over him.
Recently she took s7 to buy a winter coat. This was the first time in 3 or 4 mo that she has been alone with him, except for an hour here and one there while I went on a couple of  interviews. He’s been asking a lot of questions about religion lately to me. I didn’t think to be worried. Last night, I went out to run an errand and I guess s7 told uBPDh that his Meemaw told him that God created the universe and everything in it. So h is furious. Straight into dysregulaton and when I can home, started yelling that she is NOT allowed near our children anymore.
I’m not sure what to do here. Do I support this decision? She DID go against his wishes. And mine since I asked her to respect him. If I support this, I’ll have to quit working for her and the kids lose the only grandparent they have within 1000 miles. And I’ll lose my mom. Who drives me crazy and frustrates me but who is my MOM and has also been incredibly supportive of me when H has been at his worst.
What would you do in this situation?

[snowglobe]

Dear @5*five,
I’m so sorry you are in this catch 22 setuation. Similarly, I’ve experienced the same kind of circumstances with my mom and my uBPDh in the past. In my opinion, the door leading towards reconvincing your husband is closed. You now need to work with your momma. I assume she is an intelligent woman to understand the repocussions and consequences of her action. You need to be as considerate as you can, yet get the message across. She needs to understand the disorder, apologize for not respecting your iBPDh’s Boundaries and finally stick to non judgemental but supportive and encouraging towards your family as a whole. One trick that considerably improved their relationships was validation of experience during our conflicted interactions and my mom taking his side. It happened several times and he took notice. From then on my mom became a referee he went to when things were getting tangled up. My mom secured a close confidante position by staying neutural, and avoiding triggering him. We’ve been married for 16 years and I can honestly say that longevity of this marriage is also due to my parents getting along with him. What can you do to help your mom understand the bigger picture and advantage of having a strong bond with your h?

[Radcliff]

5xFive, this sounds like a bit of a tangle!  I am sorry you are caught in a tough place with three people you love in three different generations!  Oy.

When things are all tangled up, one thing to do is to look at the values you want to defend.  I can see at least four:  a united front with your husband, honoring and loving your mother with her in your life, grandparent love for your son, and income for your family.  It should be possible to achieve all four.  But you've got some problematic behaviors with both your husband and your mom.

You said that you are ready to back your husband up on keeping religion away from your son.  For the rest of my reply, I'm going to go with that, without questioning it, but I wanted to first check in with you and ask about your personal feelings.  If you are genuinely on the same page with him, that's fine.  If in your heart you feel differently but you are just trying to keep the peace, I wanted to at least ask you to observe that.

OK, back to the problem at hand.  First, your husband.  The key to this whole thing is proper use of boundaries.  The "harm" he is guarding against is religious indoctrination (I'm adopting his views here, not discussing my own or what another member should think).  Keeping your son away from her is changing your family's behavior and not your mom's, so it passes that "good boundary rule."  It also does protect from the harm and is not unrelated, so kinda good on that one -- the problem is that it's overly broad.  If your husband yells at you, you might step out of the room to enforce a boundary, but you don't refuse to talk to him and anyone who knows him for a month.  A better boundary would be that you don't have your son be alone with your mom.  You can heavily validate your husband for his views, yet stand up for your other three values with him by suggesting that boundary.  You can have the confidence to push it with him because it gives him what he is asking for *and* gets you your other three values.

On to your mom.  If you implement the boundary I suggest above, and it works for all four of your values, and your mom is not agitating for alone time with your son, then maybe you're good.  Influencing your mom is  a tough task.  Boundaries can't do it directly.  But maybe you want them to have alone time together.  Or having your mom watch both kids will let you earn more money.  There's a book, "Boundaries," by Cloud and Townsend.  It is written from a Christian perspective, and is chock full of scripture references.  Ironically, the last couple of times I've recommended it, I've said it's heavy on scripture, but despite that is still good.  In this case, perhaps it could help you see how boundaries arguments could be made to a very religious person.  I'll also say that even if you are not a religious person, it's a good book to read. 

To summarize, I think you can support all four values with a narrower boundary that your mom is not alone with your son.  Does that ring true for you?  Do you feel good about selling that to your husband?  Getting your mom to change her behavior is an "extra credit" problem.

I've jumped in here with a solution, without drawing you out for a lot of additional details.  It was a bit of a risk, so let me know if I've hit the mark, or if perhaps my attempt to drive quickly for a solution has missed, and we should back up a bit.

WW

[5xFive]

WW,
I’ve been really thinking about this situation and I’ve come to the same conclusion. H has recycled me today, after this situation and my bday. He screamed so much at me about this, that he tore something in his larynx and has lost his voice. He told me yesterday he is never going to scream like that again. We will see. I think this is such a great natural consequence, I can’t help feeling a little validated. Lol. Normally, he will hurt his neck, or make his knuckles bleed or something that he can forget about when he paints me white. But this time, he can’t even talk. Ok. I’m feeling a little gleeful and that shames me a bit.
Anyway. He asked me my opinion this morning and I told him that I think that cutting her off completely is extreme and I would prefer not to do that but I too feel disrespected and betrayed so while I hope this is not a determination that he comes to, I understand if he feels this way and I will do my best to respect it.
He replied that he hasn’t made up his mind, he is still thinking about it but he also does not want our son to lose the only local grandparent that he has. I’m hoping that he comes to the same determination that you did, that supervised visits are the answer, for now. He is incredibly intelligent and one thing he complains about is that I don’t let him lead our family (to be fair, he’s not very rational and he makes little things so complicated and way more difficult than they need to be  I could give examples but that would make this post even longer). So I’m going to wait and see in this situation. See what his final determination is and if it is something that I think I’m able to support. If it is not, I will address it at that time. I don’t want to assume and try to push my views in the meantime.
Regarding my view on the situation. I am conflicted. Not just about my kids, but about my own beliefs. I grew up going to Sunday school and church but it never sat well with me. There are so many hypocrisies, and I have a scientific mind that has trouble “just having faith”. Then, as an adult, seeing my mom and my brother who are both very religious do some of the things that they do makes me more conflicted. This for example from my mom (not being respectful of what is asked to her and blaming it on her faith- what?). Or her judgemental and critical attitude toward so many people around her. Or my brother who TRULY DEEPLY believes that the earth is only 5,000 years ol. WHAT? So because I struggle as an adult, I agree with h that introducing such a complex thought to a 7yr old is confusing.

[Radcliff]

He screamed so much at me about this, that he tore something in his larynx and has lost his voice... .I think this is such a great natural consequence, I can’t help feeling a little validated. Lol... .Ok. I’m feeling a little gleeful and that shames me a bit.

I think it would be OK to practice some self-forgiveness on this one

Anyway. He asked me my opinion this morning

This is very good.

and I told him that I think that cutting her off completely is extreme and I would prefer not to do that but I too feel disrespected and betrayed so while I hope this is not a determination that he comes to, I understand if he feels this way and I will do my best to respect it.  He replied that he hasn’t made up his mind, he is still thinking about it but he also does not want our son to lose the only local grandparent that he has. I’m hoping that he comes to the same determination that you did, that supervised visits are the answer, for now.

That's different than what I was advising.  This is your show, so no worries, but let me go back to what I said:

A better boundary would be that you don't have your son be alone with your mom.  You can heavily validate your husband for his views, yet stand up for your other three values with him by suggesting that boundary.  You can have the confidence to push it with him because it gives him what he is asking for *and* gets you your other three values.

It's the "stand up for your other three values" part that got lost.  Do you see how you have put the fate of your three values in his hands?

He is incredibly intelligent and one thing he complains about is that I don’t let him lead our family (to be fair, he’s not very rational and he makes little things so complicated and way more difficult than they need to be.

His desire to lead the family, especially with role model expectations he may have been raised with, is understandable.  Your concern about his fitness to do that in some areas, also understandable.  Some people want to stand up and visibly be leading, but may not necessarily be good at it all the time.  Others may not even see themselves as leaders, but make everything work behind the scenes.  There is room for many styles, and room for husband and wife to complement each other's leadership.  My wife plans the trips behind the scenes.  In fact she runs nearly everything behind the scenes.  I lead during the trip.  I stand up, take the heat, and keep everyone pointed in the right direction regardless of how upset they are.  Sometimes she leads visibly, and I support.  We are good and bad at different things.  Sorry, let me just get to the point -- people should lead at things they are good at.  The leader is a servant.  The other folks should be glad the leader is shouldering that burden.  If it's a decision we're talking about, a leader makes decisions in areas that they own.  My wife makes all the plane ticket decisions because she is d*mn good at it and I'm not.  She owns that area, and I trust her to make the decisions, only consulting me when needed.  Are you OK with your husband owning your son's relationship with your mother, as well as your relationship with her and your ability to work for her?

You've highlighted a good issue to work on -- opportunities for your husband to lead.  That could be an area for some great discussions with him.  I bet there are some areas where he'd be good, or ones that could be developed.  What is his image of family leadership?  What aspects of that do you think are valid and do you want to encourage?  What other opportunities do you see?  What responsibilities and decisions would it make good sense for him to own?  (You don't have to answer all of these questions to us unless you want to).

So I’m going to wait and see in this situation. See what his final determination is and if it is something that I think I’m able to support. If it is not, I will address it at that time. I don’t want to assume and try to push my views in the meantime.

Red flag here.  So you are saying you are going to let him make the decision and if you don't like it, you will deal with it later?  The only two options seem to be then fighting him on something you said he could decide, or sucking it up and giving up your values.  Sorry, I worry that I'm not being quite gentle enough here, but I don't want to lose the point.  It is much harder to figure out a way to defend your values than to give up the decision to someone else.  It may take some time to advocate for your position.  If you don't feel like you can "push your views" in one conversation one option you have is to buy some time somehow, nibble at issue in several conversations, with thinking time in between.  You can figure out areas of agreement, think more about how to approach him and the issues, etc.

In a nutshell, what I'm suggesting is that you keep decisions like this as a couples decision, and instead of the "thinking time" being something for him to do, the "thinking time" is for both of you.

Regarding my view on the situation. I am conflicted. Not just about my kids, but about my own beliefs. I grew up going to Sunday school and church but it never sat well with me. There are so many hypocrisies, and I have a scientific mind that has trouble “just having faith”. Then, as an adult, seeing my mom and my brother who are both very religious do some of the things that they do makes me more conflicted. This for example from my mom (not being respectful of what is asked to her and blaming it on her faith- what?). Or her judgemental and critical attitude toward so many people around her. Or my brother who TRULY DEEPLY believes that the earth is only 5,000 years ol. WHAT? So because I struggle as an adult, I agree with h that introducing such a complex thought to a 7yr old is confusing.

The reason I ask is because kids get old fast.  Now(ish) is the time to figure out where you want him to be when you launch him into the world.  Which makes it a good time for you to figure it out.  I feel like in the last 12 years (the next 12 for you  my wife and I have been so distracted by our drama that we've not done a good job of being mindful about where we want our kids to end up on religion.  You've got a lot on your plate.  This is not a "today" thing.  But if you kick the can down the road five or more years, the decision will have been made.

I hear you on the scientific mind thing.  I'm going with the theory that God invented physics and evolution, and we can all be happy

WW

[formflier]

Boundaries... .boundaries... boundaries.

Let boundary enforcement be "proportional".  Boundary enforcement is not punishment.

If closing the door will do... .no need to lob a grenade out.  The grenade would be punishment.

Grandma can't be trusted to be around the kid and not spread religion.  So... .Grandma can't be alone with kid.   No need to lock Grandma in closet... .or put a sign in front of her house... .or move across the country... .

Just do it... .no more alone time.  She can buy a couple coats and kiddo can try them on at home.  Things can be returned.

Boundaries... .

You get to have a relationship with your Mom if you choose.  Not something to fight with your hubby... .or anyone else about.  Not something you rub his face in either, especially given the religion thing.

Full disclosure... .I'm Conservative Baptist, so personally I have many of the beliefs that you talk about.  To each his own.  No big deal. 

I also think that a Grandma saying "religion requires xyz" is a bit over the top.  Yes Christians should spread the word but in a way that honors God.  Disrespecting parents is not a way to convert people.

At some point after tensions die down... .it would be a good time to talk to Mom.  We can help coach you.

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I can’t help but think that your mother is really disrespectful to you and your husband. It’s unfortunate but supervised visits seem like the only option at this point.

You’ve stated your desire and she has chosen to ignore it. That she is a member of a widely accepted faith doesn’t matter. What if she believed in a weird satanic cult?

No matter what her beliefs are, you told her that she is not to try and indoctrinate your child and she continues to do so. I wonder what other boundaries she tries to cross.

[formflier]

  I wonder what other boundaries she tries to cross.

Which is exactly why this is... .IMO... .poor Christian practice... .to disrespect parents.

Also... .realize this is not "just" about religion.  Most likely there are lots of other boundaries that are fuzzy.

FF

[Radcliff]

Disclosure... .I was raised in a moderate mainstream Christian religion, and give myself a low passing grade for practicing.  I can appreciate discussions in a biblical context, but it is not my main mode of thinking. 

Going back to that book I mentioned, "Boundaries," by Cloud and Townsend... .for my style, I would like many fewer scripture references (it just got a little ungainly and indirect) but even so I'm very happy with it, and think 5xFive might find it useful on many fronts, both with husband and thinking about her FOO.  It truly is opening my eyes to how boundaryless I've been, how it originated in my FOO, and how it has impacted my marriage.  And if I had to prepare myself for a respectful, constructive boundaries discussion with a biblical Christian, I'd have my nose in that book!

WW

[5xFive]

Thank you all for your wise words. I hope I didn’t thoughtlessly trample on your beliefs. I am mostly very accepting of other people’s thoughts and beliefs. My brother for example and our disagreement about how old the earth is. It’s ok in my opinion that we believe differently. Because he does not try to convince me to see it his way. He knows what he knows and I know what I know and we love each other. But my mom on the other hand. She pushes her way and I tend to let her and it causes arguments in my home.
Re: making decisions together. I don’t feel like I can talk to h. He is in a hole and idk if I’m pushing him deeper or what but I can’t communicate with him. He has been splitting me black every other day I think. I don’t know how much longer I can be strong and I’m struggling with my skills.

[Radcliff]

Hi 5xFive, I am so sorry, this sounds like such a discouraging time.  I was thinking about this thread this morning.  With my "problem solving" reply yesterday, I'm not sure I gave you enough credit for how hard it is to make this stuff work.  Getting advice on the boards is one thing, but putting it into practice with our pwBPD, remembering all the angles and what we need to do, and getting it to work out as we wish it would -- very tough.  We may feel ready and geared up when we're huddled with our support folks, then we are standing alone against a heat blast of confusing fury and a lot of what we thought we were going to do goes out the window.  Or at least, that's the way it works for me!

I'll reply on your other thread, that seems to be the more pressing one.

WW

[formflier]

No worries about belief trampling.  I would encourage you to look at more things the way you and your brother discuss the age of the earth...   Let people sort things out for themselves.

It's not that hard for me to let others be wrong... .

After all... .how many times has the Bible changed what it said about age of the earth?

How many times have scientists changed theirs?

Hmmm... .

Sorry... .had to take the shot... .   

FF

[5xFive]

I finally got up the nerve to talk to my mom about this situation. It was HORRIBLE. She went on and on about how my husband is filled with Satan and he is going to hell and taking me and the kids with him. And how if she spends time with the kids she WILL tell them about God whether we like it or not, and she will just have to tell my 7 year old to lie to us about it. So I told her that isn't going to happen and she started asking me what I believed. I told her that wasn't any of her business and she started screaming about how she has failed as a mother because I don't believe (which I did not say).
Then she starts in on how much she hates my uBPDh and how she wishes he would just die already and how she has tried to love him for the last 18 years but she can't and she can't believe I continue to choose this life, and there must be something sick and twisted about me that I want to live like this. And again how she has failed as a mother because this is what I want.
Then she asked how she should have responded. I told her that probably the best thing to say is something like: "This is a really big subject, and I think these are questions that your parents would be better able to answer for you", idk. I was pretty upset and trying to stay calm. She said she's not going to say that, she doesn't believe that we will talk to him. But we DO. We answer just his questions in a way that is a bit more vague, like "some people believe... ." so that he can make his own decisions. So then she responded how she will NEVER respect h wishes because she hates him and it goes against her faith and she has talked to her church friends about this and they all agree that what he and I are doing is wrong and it is her RESPONSIBILITY to teach s7 what he needs to know about God and religion. And how the biggest way that she failed in her life was not teaching me at a young and impressionable age so that I would have avoided this life and so she won't make the same mistake with my son.
I told her that it is not her responsibility to teach him, that it is ours and it is her place to respect our wishes even if she doesn't agree. That the fact is that she KNEW what h had asked and she selfishly did it anyway (because she has to) which hurts ME.
I was at her house and she asked me to leave because she had to finish getting ready for work and she was so upset that it is going to take her a long time and she is going to be late. So I left.

I'm struggling. I feel really alone. I don't have anyone I can talk to about this.
And it occurred to me that I DID have faith. I went to church regularly as a teenager ON MY OWN, drove myself once I had a license and hitched with friends before that. I have allowed my mom's faith and my husband's lack of faith to sully mine and turn it dark and cold. I am so ANGRY with my mother. Saying it and typing it do not even begin to touch the depth of the anger.
And I'm p*-*ed because my mom reacted precisely how uBPDh predicted she would react. Word for word, including saying she was going to tell s7 to lie. So how many other things has h been right about that I have refused to see? I am questioning myself... .

Thanks for reading.

[5xFive]

My mom texted me about an hour after I left her house:

I apologize that I couldn’t just receive and keep quiet. Please forgive me.

This is typical. She says horrible things, talks to her friends or al-anon sponsors and then apologizes. Or I’ll ask her for something and she will say no and then come back and say yes. I wish she would just do right the first time. I’m really working on not being like this in my relationships.

[snowglobe]

DEAR @5*Five,
I’m so sorry you feel upset, having your worse expectations come to life is especially hard when it comes to dealing with family relative. Your words really strike a cord with me, because the book I was encouraging you to read “stop caretaking of borderline or narcissist” really talks about it. I’m might say something very blunt, and likely out of my depth... .but do your relationships with your uBPDh remind you of the same dynamics with your mom? Do they feel familiar? Perhaps this is the key to your struggle. You might have 2 covert BPDs in your life who are locked in a power struggle over you. Please, take your time to read this book. I found many answers

[Red5]

Boundaries... .boundaries... boundaries.

5xFive,

I am somewhat in a very similar circumstance as you, my uBPD/wife and my own (FOO) mother do not get along at all, my mother also displays many behavior disorders, she is quite the laundry list herself, so when they (wife-mother) come into close proximity, boom!

My dear old Mum lives two states away now, and she visits about once a year, .we (her and I) stopped really speaking a few years ago, long story, I won't go into it here, but toxic is toxic... .so "boundaries"... .

Mom is going to be here in a few days for her yearly visit, and my uBPD/wife is dreading, and I also am dreading the visit, and uBPD/wife is constantly going through "what if's" with me, contingency, coping mechanisms… but I have a few tricks up my sleeve this time, as I feel I have actually learned a few things here on this website/blog over the last year I have been here.

Yes, Formflier is spot on as usual, boundaries... .boundaries... .boundaries!

As Formflier said in his post, if Grandma cannot be trusted around Grandkid, then she will not be allowed that privilege, period.

Nothing personal, it’s just survival right (Poof!), I am going to have to do the exact same thing during my own mothers visit, as she has proven time and again that she will trample upon the wishes and concerns of me, the Father figure where my (autistic) son is concerned, and also there is the ever present drama triangles, avoid these (Poof!), the manipulative behaviors as well, nonstop, and very exhausting I know.

Not to mention my ongoing daily r/s efforts with my uBPD/wife, that will be ongoing (parallel) during the length of the visit, as well care of my son.

Sounds to me that you also have your hands full, in many respects, so the best thing to do is identify bad behaviors, and stop them, and set boundaries, and then enforce the boundaries.

Be strong as best you can, say only what you need to, avoid drama, and be firm (Poof!)… I know it’s not easy at all, I know !

Maybe Formflier can tell us more about “Poof”… which I took to be the ability to identify, then engage appropriately, put to rest, and then disengage, and then move on smartly, and on out from a bad interaction (dysregulation) with either your H, or GM… and still be able to function effectively.

We are listening, and good luck !… boundaries... .boundaries... .boundaries.

Red5

[5xFive]

Thank you red5 and Snowglobe.
When I was talking to my mom, I did tell her that she was not going to be able to see the children alone because I am not convinced that she can respect our wishes. She immediately went into how I’m taking her grand babies away from her and she’ll never stop talking to them about her faith. So I pointed out that I never said she couldn’t see them and THAT is why we are making this determination.
This is the boundary I’m trying to set but I am terrible with boundaries. Typically I fail.
On that note: Snowglobe. I bought the book. I started crying in the first chapter. I always thought my mom was “difficult” and I always blew it off when h said she has a pd. But when the book started discussing the childhoods of caretakers and needing to be the peacemaker or put aside their own emotions to soothe their families, it really resonated with me. Going to read some more now. Thank you again!

[formflier]

 
"poof"

That's a funnyism I attempt to succinctly describe how quickly a pwBPD can change... .

"I hate you, you never, you always, get away from me"... .  POOF... ."I love you, take my clothes off, rub my back... ."  POOF   "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberriers... ."


I'm fine for "poof" to mean other things too!       

FF

[formflier]

Back to the point of this post.

I would never again leave your son with your Mom... alone.  I hate to say that, but your Mom's words and actions match.  She has told you what she will do, she has done what she has said she will do, and promised to continue it in the future.

I fully expect that next time (if there is one) that she will start in on your son.

I'm really sorry to have to type that... .   

I also want you to know that her words and actions are severely twisted from what any scripture or teaching I know of says. 

Does your Mom attend church?  Is she a member of a church?

FF

[5xFive]

Thank you. Her faith has twisted my own beliefs. I have allowed it to happen but she has always been such a hypocrite that I have trouble wrapping my head around it.
She does go to church. She actually serves at her church at 4(!) services a week. She also goes to AA and al-anon. She did in fact marry an alcoholic (husband#3 of 4 to date) when I was 16. The marriage was short lived, maybe 4 years. While she was married, she started attending al-anon. Then she all of a sudden started attending AA. I never ever saw her drink to excess. Maybe 2 glasses of wine a week, but no more than that. When I confronted her, she said she is a “dry drunk”. Then she started going to church 2-4 times a week as well as her meetings. THEN she started chairing meetings, which terrified me at the time. I try not to think about it anymore.
Then she decided that she was a food addict, whatever that means. She weighs about 110 pounds so she COULD be anorexic, but I’ve never seen her eat to excess either. She confuses me.
Regarding church, I had asked if we could do Christmas Eve at her house for the kids and she said no, she needed to be at church the entire day. My sons birthday was on a thursday this year so she stopped by but left after 10 mins because she had to get to church.
The only person who’s ever told me that there is something wrong with my mom is my husband. And his reality so often is unreal that I haven’t believed him. It wasn’t until this situation that I’ve started really looking into our past and trying to see past the glaze that’s over my eyes regarding my mom. And I’m surprised and I feel like my foundation has been rocked a little. But I can’t talk to h about it. I think he would be gleeful and that would upset me, you know?

I thank you for your words, formflier. You and some of the other long time posters on this site are so wise to me and your words validate how I feel. I usually question my feelings, part of my FOG I’m guessing so it’s nice to have people agree when I think something is wrong! Thank you again.

[formflier]

Hey... thanks for the kind words.

Big picture:  You want to offer your Mom what she wants, but show her the pathway to what she wants through something that if she does... .will help get her healthy... .or that will scare her and she won't move forward.

That "flips" the position

You are offering her alone time with your son... .to bad she won't "just do xyz... "... ."oh well... I'll have to respect Mom's choice... "

Then stop discussing it.

In this case... .I think you say you won't discuss it further with her in person, yet you would be happy to discuss it with her pastor.

Do you have a recording on your phone of her saying she will tell your son to lie?  Or in texts? 

A basic part of Christianity is accountability... .once she realizes that is where you are going... she either gets better... or avoids it.

It will be up to you to enforce the boundary of no further talk or discussion.  The only thing you will discuss is time to meet pastor.

Note:  This is FF recommendation... .not really part of BPD family "rules" or "guidance".  I suppose there is a general rule about bringing light to the situation.

Trust me... she doesn't want light.

FF

[Radcliff]

5xFive, I am so deeply sorry that you had that upsetting interaction with your mom.  It also sounds like you feel caught between your mom and your husband, not able to recognize and act on your own faith in the way that feels most comfortable for you.  Let me ask a question.  If you could find a moderate, accepting church community that you felt comfortable in, and magically go to Sunday services on your own without your children missing you or your husband being upset, would you do that?  Or are you truly OK with not having religion as a part of your life?  [Full disclosure -- I'm not trying to push you in a direction here, my own church attendance is quite poor, but I'm interested in where your heart would take you if you weren't burdened with others' needs and expectations.]

This business of looking at your family of origin and understanding its impact on you is hard.  Facing ways in which a parent isn't acting in ways that are healthy for you or your children is hard.  There's an element of grief and mourning involved -- that your mom's limitations are hurting you and you don't have the safe experience with her that you have a right to wish for.  This is a heavy weight on your heart, and I'm so sorry that you are feeling it.  Somehow, you'll figure out a way to come to terms with all of this and navigate through it, but it is very hard.

         

WW

[5xFive]

FF. I do not have record of her saying this but I doubt she would deny it if she was asked since she doesn’t think she is wrong.
Re: bringing it up, I don’t think it will happen. My mom is a master at not discussing things that upset her. I’m sure she called my brother, who I spoke to already a couple of weeks ago to complain. She likes to pit us against each other. It worked when we were kids. We grew up hating each other. As adults, were not close. We only see each other for special events, but we’re “on the same team” if that makes sense. He truly IS an alcoholic and he has a lot of recovery under his belt. He doesn’t really pay any attention to her.

Thank you for the thought provoking question. I’ve been considering it for most of the day.
I am ok with not having CHURCH as a part of my life right now. I don’t disbelieve. While I enjoy the fellowship that church can provide, I have a hard time with die-hard church goers. Likely because of my mom. Also, at this point in my life, I really do feel isolated and I don’t feel like I have anything in common with people that I meet. None of them can understand what this is like. I would be more likely to find a support group for BPD families. But that would be tough since there’s “nothing wrong” with h and everything is my fault.
I wouldn’t hate it if my husband was more accepting of church. It was a significant part of my life before we met. But it’s not important enough to me to listen to his judgement and condescension for me to start going. Also, I really like lazy Sundays. If I did ever go back to church, I would never tell my mom that I started attending. She would think that I was going because of HER. And she would twist it and make it about her and then it would be really hard for me to get past that.

[Cat Familiar]

the childhoods of caretakers and needing to be the peacemaker or put aside their own emotions to soothe their families

Me too!

Between your mother and your husband, you have no "rock" in your life--no one who has your back, who you can count on to support you. Maybe that could be a friend who could be an objective listener. You need it!

Please keep posting here and also post on the "parent with BPD board". I'm not saying your mother has BPD, but she sounds a lot like my mother, who did. In any event, some of her behavior is typical of someone with a personality disorder, so I'm sure if you do an archeological dig of your childhood, you could get more clarity about her and the friendly folks on that board could help.

 

Cat

[Radcliff]

5xFive,

Two possibilities for some local support meetings are:

Family Connections Program (12-week course sponsored by NEA-BPD)
NAMI Family Support Group (National Alliance on Mental Illness)

I've heard good things from a couple of people who have gone to NAMI meetings.  I don't know much about the Family Connections Program -- I filled out a form a couple of weeks ago for myself and haven't heard back yet.

WW