Which/queen type of BPD mother = NPD mother ?

[FoxC]

It's all in the topic. I'm discovering now the narcissistic personality disorder which reminds me a lot the description of which/queen type of mother having BPD. Can you see differences ? Thanks a lot.

[Kwamina]

Hi FoxC

What led to you discovering narcissistic personality disorder?

When you consider the queen and witch types as proposed by Christine Ann Lawson, PhD, it is clear that narcisstic traits are also part of that BPD typology. Narcissitic traits definitely aren't limited to people with narcisstic personality disorder only, yet the extent to which these traits are present can vary. Some BPD mothers might be one of the four types (waif, hermit, queen, witch) most of the tme, while others might switch between these types, be more of a mixture of two or more of them or only assume these roles in certain situations.

[FoxC]

Hey Kwamina,

I started to have some notion about NPD while reading "stop caretaking the borderline or narcissist" by Margalis Fjelstad, then accidentaly bumping into Richard Grannon spartanlifecoach and The little shaman healing youtube channels, and many others as well... .It made me wonder, because there are many similarities between borderline and narcissistic PD. There are differences as well, and I see, for example, that my boyfriend fits well the borderline category, and not the narcissist one. However, it's different with my mother. I certainly do understand that she has traits of all these four types, being rather a hermit type of a mother with me the whole life. But lately (being triggered by various circumstances) she behaves JUST as the description of a witch mother or... .someone with a NPD, as it fits the picture as well. Her angry emotions are so vivid towards me lately, that I wonder sometimes if it made her feel good destroying me slowly. I can feel her jealousy, copying everything good I do, than failing, then projecting to me her anger, then belittling my own accomplishments or literally destroying my goods. I can see that the queen type of mother (which fits her not well btw) would be a lot like someone with NPD as well. So, here I am, questioning rather scientifically, are there some real differences between a mother with a pure NPD and a mother of witch/queen BPD type.
I do surely understand, that I'm not the qualified person to 'give' diagnosis, I'm just trying to give name to what I'm dealing with in order to obtain some more validating information, as there are no chances at all that this diagnosis would be ever made by a qualified person.
Thanks.

[Turkish]

Hi FoxC,

Have you read Lawson's book?

Understanding the Borderline Mother - Christine Ann Lawson PhD

If I remember correctly,  Masterson describes the NPD as the "inflated false self," and the BPD as the "deflated false self." Certainly pwBPD can exhibit narcissistic traits, and Lawson describes,  as the Board Parrot says,  that the fairy tale types she describes can alternate. 

My mother would sometimes imply that I never made anything of myself,  but it was a weak implication my my standards.  My mom is more the Hermit-Waif type,  and wasn't overtly mean about it, unlike your mother.  My ex is a bit more direct,  more Queen, and even tried to turn me onto 7 Habits of Highly Effective People just tonight. I guess she doesn't see me as Highly Effective 

The struggle for us kids is seeing ourselves for ourselves,  free of judgement,  yes?

How do you see yourself, apart from mother's judgement?

[FoxC]

Hello Turkish,

Yes, I certainly did read this book, as the fairy tail descriptions of BPD mothers are quite unique there. So far it's the only book I've read that develops this topic so well. I guess I forgot the inflated/deflated false self part you mention, it might be the key. And interestingly it would be hard for me at the moment to tell wether my mother's false self is rater 'inflated' or 'deflated'. It seems to me that it might fluctuate highly between the two. As everything in her life does.
It's interesting the question you ask me, how do I see myself free of my mother's judgment. I could write pages about it. Because of my mother's judgments I was forced to be successful (to help her out eventually) and I rather did. But the judgments, as you know, continued (it worsened!). I had enough of awareness to understand that the awful stuff she could sometimes tell me is totally ridiculous or unproportionate and to think of myself good anyway. But even now, when I slip and make a mistake, then I start to feel awful about myself, out of proportion (just as if everything my mother ever told awful about me were actually true), sometimes this can drive me to a bad anxiety attack. Like two days ago, I forgot a meeting in my work. Nobody even said to me anything, but the guilt and shame that I felt were hardly bearable, until I tried to figure out why I'm feeling this bad and tried to forgive myself.

[Harri]

hello again Fox C!

From what I can tell from my reading is that while NPD/BPD behaviors may seem the same on the surface, what determines the difference is the emotion behind the behaviors.  If I remember correctly, BPD behaviors are more fear driven.  They are also less organized hence the term emotional dysregulation.  NPD behavior is more deliberate and organized and people with NPD have no empathy.  The fact that BPD and NPD are often co-morbid further complicates the issue.  The only thing I know for sure is that I, as a lay person, have no real way to tell for sure what is causing the person to act the way they do.  I also have no way of knowing if a person *feels* empathy if they do not share it (for whatever reason).

BPD fit some of my mother's behaviors but not all.  It is only recently that my current T gave me some clarity when she said it sounded like my mom had schizophrenia.  That is a much better fit but we also think that BPD can explain some of her behaviors.

I understand what you mean about getting validation from the ability to put a label on your mom's behavior.  The label BPD even though I knew it was not a 100% fit gave me a place to start and provided a framework in which to learn what is healthy vs. not healthy.  It worked well for a long time and still works today.

But even now, when I slip and make a mistake, then I start to feel awful about myself, out of proportion (just as if everything my mother ever told awful about me were actually true), sometimes this can drive me to a bad anxiety attack. Like two days ago, I forgot a meeting in my work. Nobody even said to me anything, but the guilt and shame that I felt were hardly bearable, until I tried to figure out why I'm feeling this bad and tried to forgive myself.

It sounds like there is a disconnect between understanding on an intellectual and understanding on an emotional level.  The two are very different.  It is important to tell yourself this is wrong, she is projecting, I am not who she says I am, etc.  That will help you intellectually understand.  That part that fills with anxiety and fear and guilt is the other part of you that still needs to learn and heal on an emotional level.  It will come in time. 

Forgive me, I do not remember--->  are you in therapy?  It may help with the emotional untangling and healing if you can go.

[FoxC]

Hi Harri, thank you for post, I start to see things a bit clearer. Yep, it sure is a huge puzzle that we are trying to solve here... but as it was written in the book (which I re-read now), understanding one's mother is understanding ourselves.
It's curious, when I was a teen, my mother herself said to me that 'they' wanted to stick her a schizophrenia label once. When as an adult I finally understood that something is actually wrong with my mother, I tried to search more info on schizophrenia, but it didn't fit the picture. It makes sense now, because apparently, years ago when BPD didn't exist as diagnosis, many patients were misdiagnosed as schizophrenics. Although, one thing was misleading - her auditory 'hallucinations'. I had to figure this on my own, in fact in my mothers case, I strongly believe, it's just a type of reality distortion under a huge stress, either momentary, either retrospective.
And so, what concerns therapy, at first I was very terrified only by the thought of ever seeing one. Little by little, I warmed myself to this idea, and now I would actually like to see one, but it's hard to get the information, whether or not the therapist specializes in the BPD (I'd prefer). And then, there are money issues as well, at the moment I can't afford it... .