D12 came out as transgender

[Mutt]

I'm just going to start this thread with the same thing that I told people in real life. I'm just going to come out and say it because I can't think of any other way of saying it, my D12 has come out as transgender.

I wish that it wasn't put on my D12 to have to tell her dad that, I wish that my exuBPDw could have told me behind the scenes instead of leaving it up to her. It comes to me as a complete surprise I've been reading a little bit about transgender and there should be signs in the past, for example if you have your child in your cart and you pass by the girls clothing and your son is crying because of the dresses is an indication that your child is transgender. There were no hints at all, she did cut her long hair around her birthday this year she had the one side shaved and I thought well if she cuts it short then she'll realize how long it takes to grow it out again. Short or long hair is not gender specific it doesn't that she's a boy that and she had started wearing sweat pants and a chest binding just after her birtday.

I hurt her feelings when she told me I could tell by the reaction in her face I read some ill advised advice online I should have known better I just told her that I don't think of her differently but I have a problem with it everyone is different with how they process things and she dropped a bomb. She was texting my exuBPDw and my exuBPDw said that she was going to come and get her after work after that conversation she said that she was completely understanding and supportive. I think it makes my D12 a validation medallion because she's an understanding mother.

My D12 has had the habit of staying in her room I suspect that she was ruminating anyways I didn't want to stop my D12 going to her mom's it will give her a chance to come back to baseline and I didn't want to make matters worse fine go to your mom's but this ended up being a month she's finally coming back this Friday after we had a meeting with the school counselor and her teacher, I told my kids that if they can't talk about something they can talk to the teachers in the school, initially I had agreed that she came back home for a couple of nights this week ( I get the kids Friday to Friday one week switch on switch off ) so that she could see how it goes. I have a court order that my exuBPD breached because I don't have a clue with how to handle my daughter, she's rescuing my D12 and enabling this behaviour.

I finally talked to the social worker which talked to my D12 I have two younger kids and I can't have them get the wrong impression that they can just go to mom if they get their feelings hurt. I finally told the social worker that this is the wrong channel and if exuBPDw and D12 feel like they want to make changes to the court order they can file in court but until then I'll call the police this week and let them sort it out if D12 is a no show. I know that it's not going to come to that but a court order is very serious and it was something that I felt was overlooked at the meeting.

The social worker called me again and told me that my D12 is cutting and gave me a bunch of numbers and strategies for the home she said that she has only done it a couple of times and she was given CBT skills to alleviate the anxiety in a more healthful way. On the one hand she's brave for coming and she trusts me if she told me but I also think that this is a phase, she will be talking to a P and hopefully that will provide answers and above all help her.

[ForeverDad]

Um, this is a touchy subject.  I suspect that no matter what I say, it will trigger some members here.  After all, we have all sorts of members here, genderwise and lifestylewise.  But here goes.

She's 12.  Barely into puberty.  Hormones are surging or soon will.  However, she won't be considered an adult for another 5 to 6 years.  This is a bit soon to decide she's transgender.  Or at least to venture into that life in ways that can't be undone.  Was she able to express why she wants to be male, a man?  Whatever else, she ought to have the support and perspective that she has lots of time to figure out who she is.  Gender ambiguity or waffling is not all that uncommon and in time over the course of years most people figure out where they feel natural and comfortable.  It has been written that some who went so far as operations to change gender appearances years later regretted it.  I don't know what the figures are or even if there are any, but later regrets have happened.

I guess what I'm saying is that you're probably safe to say, "I understand you have these feelings and conclusions now, but for all we know your perceptions and perspective will change in the years to come.  And this is a life-changing matter not to be rushed.  After all, it surprised me.  For that reason I won't obligate you to hold to the feelings you currently have.  You may think they won't change, but they might and so I won't lock you into sticking to your current feelings."  Would that be something the social worker would, if consulted, find acceptable?

It seems mother is super supportive of this.  The elephant in the room is how much influence her disordered mother had in this apparently sudden declaration.  I'm suspicious of course.  If SD isn't in counseling, this of all things should confirm the need of expert counseling.  (And cutting is an early indication of higher risk for BPD traits, or at least BPD fleas.)  She surely would benefit from objective guidance.  A neutral and trained professional can assist her in figuring out her feelings and issues without reinforcing the unexpected tangents.  The key is not to let disordered mother do the picking.  Or if mother does pick then be sure you provide the short list of really good counselors for mother to pick from.  (Courts like that approach where both parents are involved in such major decisions.  This is just about the only way that us reasonably normal parents have of preventing the ex from picking enablers who are gullible or already biased against our objective goals.)

[Nope]

Maybe she's transgender and maybe she isn't. Teens try out all sorts of identities. The more D12 perceives you fighting against her exploration the more she'll dig in her heels. It's what teens do. I wouldn't say anything as specific as "I won't hold you to this." Because that can sound like you aren't taking her seriously, which is another way to get a teen to dig in. This is absolutely not a life changing matter until and unless hormones and surgical procedures become involved. She'll have to wait until she is 18 and able to legally make that sort of informed decision for herself. Until then there is relatively little harm in playing along compared to the harm in fighting with her about it.

Can you work on preserving your relationship with her without letting her or her mom put you in a tough postition? Validate her experience of feeling uncomfortable in her own skin and ask caring questions about how long that's been going on for her. The cutting is definitely a sign that she's feeling a lot of stress and it's unfortunately a pretty typical cry for help and attention. In short, this kid really needs her dad right now. Particularly since dad is the stable parent. Just don't expect her to make it easy on you.

[takingandsending]

Hi Mutt.

You must have had so many feelings going through you when your D12 told you what was going on in her life. We are all just beginning to learn about transgender, and I think being proud of her for telling you something so completely scary and difficult, and acknowledging your own oh my gosh I didn't know what to do or say, but I am so sorry that I hurt you because of my own fear or shame. Because what I really want to tell you is that I will always love you and be here for you, without exception.

While it may have been something that D12 should not have had to tell you without her mom present for support, what is most important is that she did tell you, she did trust a pretty big thing with you. What has been running through your mind this past month while waiting for her to come back to you? Maybe that's a starting point for re-establishing that trust.

My S12 had a girl classmate who came out two years ago as transgender. Her mom used to come to parent meetings and share how worried she was for her daughter, how her daughter was depressed, seemed concerned about death. It took her daughter 3 years of depression and discomfort for her to feel safe enough with her parents (in what I think was a pretty supportive environment) to say that she wanted to be, knew inside that she was, a boy. And her mom related that finally acknowledging it was such a huge relief for her daughter, for them all because now at least, they had a way to understand what she was going through. I'm with Nope, I think your kid really needs her dad right now and probably even her disordered mom, too. As much as possible, as parents, try to put her first.

For what it's worth, my S12 was 4 or 5 and said it was unfair that girls got to wear dresses, so his mom bought him a pink dress. He may well have been showing signs like you said. I have no idea. But I know that I love him and will support him through anything he is going through. Yeah, my uBPDxw seemed intent to label him as "so gay" or "having feminine energy" when he was too young to be much of any one way, but I just hold space for him to become who he is to be. I don't care what that is, really, as long as he is happy and knows he's loved and is kind to others. I always found it interesting that she was positively freaked out by his masturbating at a young age. How much is learned, how much is genetic, I am not certain, but our love has to be consistent and secure.

[Panda39]

Hi Mutt,

I certainly understand your surprise and it's okay to be surprised.  I think what's important now is what you do going forward.

My SO's daughters both have come out D17 Lesbian and D21 "Pan Sexual".  We have just supported them in terms of how they define themselves.  They are who they are and their sexuality is their sexuality.  We just love them because they are his kids. Their sexuality changes nothing for us.

I also agree with Nope that at 12 your daughter is still finding her way.  My advice, just love her.

Panda39

[livednlearned]

Mutt, do you worry that she might be developing BPD?

Are you concerned about her being transgender, or is your concern more about having her seek out her mom for emotional support?

[lighthouse9]

Hey Mutt,

As a person well immersed in LGBT communities and with a history of gender question myself, I want to just encourage you to validate your kid and ask them what it is they would like you to do. Change pronouns? Names? It might all be a phase, it might not, but supporting them now will save them from a lot of trouble later. I'm definitely on team "don't do anything permanent/semi-permanent" until lots of counseling and time have happened. But, there are a lot of ways you can validate and give your kid some space to explore this. Name and pronoun preferences are not permanent, nor is allowing your child to shop in a different side of a store. Think of them as nicknames, if anything. I still have two names that people call me, because I got to the point where I didn't really care who called me what and where. I've had some really interesting moments where different people in my life meet up and call me different names, but I just make sure that everyone understands that I don't really have a preference at this point in my life and that I'm not offended either way.

Now - if you're concerned about BPD with your kid, this is where the counseling is so important, and it's important that you're involved as much as seems ok. We all know that dissociation is a big deal in people with BPD, and dissociative identity disorder is something counselors are on the lookout for when it comes to young people who want to transition. The cutting could be BPD related, or the stress of having to keep the trans stuff in. You won't know, honestly, for a while. But, a lot of the ways we learned to communicate with the BPD folks in our lives can help you to smooth things out with your kid, too. Learn what you can, reach out to other parents, and also recognize that this generation tends to be more ok with gender variance and not transitioning physically but occupying a third gender space or something more androgynous. Gender is such an in your face thing to kids at your child's age, that experiencing it differently can be SO overwhelming. As an adult, and maybe you feel the same, I don't experience gender in such overwhelming ways. So many other things define who I am and I can tolerate the spaces/people/places that seem to need to have a gender fit in binary categories much less toxically now. I regularly read up on ways to develop a healthy masculinity while also not denying femininity in myself. Adults do this. Adults recognize that neither masculinity or femininity need to define us solely and adults in health relationships share these traits like a dance, whether in same gender marriages or not.

Here's to hoping you can find a way to be supportive while still be the concerned parent and not get cut out in the process. I'm rooting for you, and definitely here via private message if you need some support.

[formflier]

. Teens try out all sorts of identities. The more D12 perceives you fighting against her exploration the more she'll dig in her heels. It's what teens do.

This sums it up.

I'm suspicious too that dynamics with the Mom are creating a bigger flame than needs to be here.

   

FF

[Mutt]

Was she able to express why she wants to be male, a man?

She expressed that she feels more comfortable with masculine qualities.

It seems mother is super supportive of this.  The elephant in the room is how much influence her disordered mother had in this apparently sudden declaration.

Mom has been menacing me for a few weeks now and I figured that there's something going on over there and D12 confirmed it today when she came home before school with a few of her things she said that she was stressed. I said what about and she said mom's boyfriend is always mad at mom and throwing things around. The Saturday that she left I guess that there was drama because when exuBPDw got home he wanted to throw them out, she said that mom calmly said to stop swearing because their D3 was there.

Mom constantly puts me into a triangle as persecutor and she rescues the kids to validate that she is a good mom, I can see how she would say to family and friends how dad doesn't get it and how easily it was for her to transition into this. I told her that if she is so understanding that she should understand that everyone absorbs things differently and it's just a matter of time for me to absorb this after all I didn't see this coming and she dropped a bomb on me. To a degree, D12 is going to have to realize that not everyone is going to react how she expects them to react.

She surely would benefit from objective guidance.  A neutral and trained professional can assist her in figuring out her feelings and issues without reinforcing the unexpected tangents.

I agree with you D12 is mixed up and needs someone to walk her through this and how she reach the conclusion that she is transgender. Thank for your advice over the years ForeverDad, I'll keep mental note of making sure that the correct person to help D12 is picked.

This is absolutely not a life changing matter until and unless hormones and surgical procedures become involved. She'll have to wait until she is 18 and able to legally make that sort of informed decision for herself. Until then there is relatively little harm in playing along compared to the harm in fighting with her about it.

That's a really good point Nope I wasn't sure if I should play along with it or it or not. I need to repair the r/s and so far it's working I liked Foreverdad's example of how to validate her.

I don't care what that is, really, as long as he is happy and knows he's loved and is kind to others

 

I also agree with Nope that at 12 your daughter is still finding her way.  My advice, just love her.

 That's good advice takingandsending and Panda39 I called the school's child P and my T and both said to love her unconditionally.
 
 
 

Mutt, do you worry that she might be developing BPD?

Are you concerned about her being transgender, or is your concern more about having her seek out her mom for emotional support?

Good questions livednlearned BPD does worry me because her older sister that's turning 20 has traits, mom has severe traits, her grandmother on her mom's side has traits and the great grandmother that recently passed away on that side of the family has traits.

I'm also not happy with how she went to mom for emotional support because I know that mom tries to do what's best for the kids but she's severely mentally ill and unwilling or unaware of her issues. Mom's drama triangles doesn't help D12 and I mentioned earlier that she's been menacing me and this is a reason why I believe because she doesn't know how to cope with D12.

I told my T that I'm non judgemental but this isn't something that I grew up with it doesn't mean that it wasn't there. Just a few years ago it was goth kids, then kids came out that they were vampires and I'm just saying that it feels like it's pushing the envelope if she's doing this for attention. She's a teen I have a few years left of this, really this is the first thing as a teenager that I have to face? I'm just venting here  it just makes me wonder what else is going to happen not just with her but just with things in general like her mom being a handful.

But, there are a lot of ways you can validate and give your kid some space to explore this. Name and pronoun preferences are not permanent, nor is allowing your child to shop in a different side of a store. Think of them as nicknames, if anything. I still have two names that people call me, because I got to the point where I didn't really care who called me what and where. I've had some really interesting moments where different people in my life meet up and call me different names

I'm suspicious too that dynamics with the Mom are creating a bigger flame than needs to be here.

Thanks for the advice lighthouse9 about validation and reaching out to other parents she has a boy name that she's been called at the other house she did say that it was okay if I call her by her girl name for now and I did have a hard time with her boy name  haven't called her by her new name - I'll keep that in mind that it's just a nickname validate and to play the long game because if I invalidate and reject her it's going to cause friction in our r/s.

[formflier]

I think the big points here are to listen and to gently make sure D12 understands that whatever her choices are, that some people will react in a way she likes and some will react in a way she doesn't.

Just as she wants to be accepted... .she should work on accepting others... .reactions and all.

If it was me, I'd have a conversation with me P first before "offering advice"... .and please understand my following comments are just my best guesses.

I would assume these kind of things should be lumped into many of the other "decisions" and "announcements" that get made in teenager-hood.  We as adults need to understand that they see these as "permanent" and have little ability to understand they may feel differently in 2 years... .or 10.  To them... 10 more years is an eternity.  To me... 10 years is 1/5th of my life... .to them it's over half.

At the end of the day, if they know they have a Dad that will listen... .a Dad that will ask questions to clarify... .a Dad that doesn't "freak out"... .  I think that whatever "final decisions" get made, your D12 will be fine.

As far as T to help them figure it out... .I suppose that is a good idea, but I doubt I would "push" them to it, if they are resistant.

FF

 

[GaGrl]

I would caution that approaching this as a "you may not know what you are/want at age 12" runs the risk of invalidating something that could be at the very core of your child's being. (S)he may have known this at an early age and struggled for a number of years to understand it and is just now willing to share.

The more you leave it open to exploring the future together, the more validation exists.

[Turkish]

Can the boys corroborate the DV at the other home? Given that she's decided this seemingly out of the blue the last few months, which is atypical, maybe she doesn't feel safe being female at the other home.  Even so, i agree with the others about treading the validation line lightly.

Is the DV actionable on your side?

[lighthouse9]

Very insightful Turkish  re: "doesn't feel safe being female"

It's possible, Mutt, that your kid sees you as a the strong one or sees men in general as better able to navigate these chaotic challenges. I'm not saying this to generalize or to say that women aren't able to navigate these challenges, but we can't forget the worldview of kids and what it feels like to be a 12 year old looking around grasping at generalizations.

If this is true (re: not feeling safe being female), you might want to explore masculinity with your kid or even just talk about values and safety. Being able to keep oneself safe, or rely on others to keep you safe, does not have to be a gendered experience - even if it feels like one for your kid right now.

[livednlearned]

I told her that if she is so understanding that she should understand that everyone absorbs things differently and it's just a matter of time for me to absorb this after all I didn't see this coming and she dropped a bomb on me. To a degree, D12 is going to have to realize that not everyone is going to react how she expects them to react.

Except you're not everyone  

Here's something my T suggested to me (SD20 came out as transgender), "I might make mistakes in how I respond, and I hope you can be patient with me. I'll need to catch up to where you're already at, you've had a bit of a head start on this. I'm glad you told me so you don't feel alone carrying this. I imagine it took courage to share this with people you love, and I'm touched you are telling me. I admire you so much for how brave you are."

I'm also not happy with how she went to mom for emotional support because I know that mom tries to do what's best for the kids but she's severely mentally ill and unwilling or unaware of her issues.

I understand. SO's oldest daughter (23) goes to her mom when she's mad at dad. Mom eventually behaves badly and SD23 turns back to her dad.

I overheard her talking on the phone (to SD20, I think) saying that "at least with mom you know exactly how she's feeling." It made me think that SD23 looks for someone with emotional intensity when she herself is feeling emotionally intense. It might not be a very skilled form of validation, but I suspect it is validating, at least in a crude way. SD23 inevitably gets hurt, though, because at some point she wants to make sense of things and her mom can't provide that -- it's a never ending swing between victimhood and entitlement, neither of which helps SD23 work things through in her relationships.  

For what it's worth, SD20 came out as bisexual (16), gay (17), then 2 years ago as transgender (18). She is now dating a boy. Over the years, she has gone from short hair and men's clothes and a man's name to long hair, women's clothing, and back to her given name. While she announced that she was transgender, she did not let anyone know when she no longer felt that way. It just happened.

SD23 is diagnosed bipolar and I suspect she is BPD. I wonder sometimes if the transgender/bisexual/gay fluidity is part of the unstable identity she experiences as BPD.

SD20's therapist told her about the Trevor Project: https://www.thetrevorproject.org/ and I know she has found it supportive as she works her way through any isolation or confusion she feels.

I also think it's important that you get to express how you feel, with peers, like your favorite peanut gallery here  

SO felt blindsided and confused and loves SD20 to pieces. Even being open-minded and supportive, he also felt angry and scared and needed to have his feelings heard.

When then SD17 went with him to the supermarket to get deodorant, she reached for a very strongly scented men's deodorant. SO told her that he found that deodorant to be very overpowering and that she might want to look at other brands that weren't as noticeable. She interpreted that to mean he was shaming her for picking a male deodorant, and she shut down and stormed out of the store.

He later said something like, "Hey, I didn't handle that well. You're practically an adult and know how to pick out the right deodorant! I don't know what I was thinking. It was insensitive of me and I hope you'll be patient with me as I adjust to you being an adult. Part of it is knowing you're going away to college and I won't get to see you as much, and I guess I'm hanging on a little more than normal."

Then later he added, "But that deodorant you were going to pick out really does stink."

 

The point being that he refused to let everything be about transgender issues because for him, it wasn't always about that. Sometimes, it was just what it was -- normal parent/kid tensions.

[babyducks]

Mutt,

I remember coming out to my mother when I was 13 years old as lesbian.    This was quite a while ago and the words, gay, lesbian, transgendered were not often spoken.

The first thing my mother said was 'you are way too young to know what you want' and this 'is probably a phase you are going through.'    the second thing she said was 'never have this conversation with your Father and we won't talk about it again.'

That was probably about 45 years ago.    For me it wasn't a phase.    and we never did talk about it again.

What I would like to share with you is while I was sure of what I was feeling,   at 13 years old I did not have the breathe/depth of language and maturity to communicate those feelings without fumbling.    the fumbling was not in regards to what I felt, only my ability to express it.

I have a vivid memory of staring down at our dining room table trying to find the words to talk to my mother and neither one of us having them.   I remember the brown wood grain pattern of that table like it was yesterday.

So the science tells us sex, gender and sexuality is messy.    For most cisgender people the functional assumption is that sex, gender identity, gender expression, orientation and sexual behaviors all line up,   all match.    Sex being our biological package chromosomes, genitalia, hormones.     Sex exists on a spectrum from Female to Intersex to Male.   (yes Intersex is a real thing... .but beyond your topic)    Gender identity also exists on a spectrum,  that is the part that exists between your ears... .  the psychological knowledge of gender regardless of 'the package'.   You probably have already observed that Gender Expression also exists on a spectrum... .very feminine to androgynous to very masculine... .

Orientation is who we are attracted to sexually and romatically and sexual behavior is what we do sexually.

a couple of points Mutt for you and for anyone else reading... .gender identity is seperate from sexual orientation.   everyone has both.   gender identity is typically set in the brain around five years old and for many/most people, gender identity and sex match.   not for everyone.    and that typically surfaces around puberty when the body starts to change and more strongly display the biological package.

So on all those spectrums I was talking about?   My sex is female, my gender identity is woman, my gender expression is androgynous, my sexual orientation is lesbian, and my sexual behavior is with women.

Messy huh.

another point from the science,... ."Sexual Reassignment Surgery or Gender Affirmation Surgery is not the goal for all trans individuals.    The majority of trans individuals do not have surgery."

I like this point from livednlearned   

Here's something my T suggested to me (SD20 came out as transgender), "I might make mistakes in how I respond, and I hope you can be patient with me. I'll need to catch up to where you're already at, you've had a bit of a head start on this. I'm glad you told me so you don't feel alone carrying this. I imagine it took courage to share this with people you love, and I'm touched you are telling me. I admire you so much for how brave you are."

there is a lot to learn about this topic and unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation floating around.

I agree with you D12 is mixed up and needs someone to walk her through this and how she reach the conclusion that she is transgender.
 

I knew I was gay when I was five.  I told my kindergarden teacher I was going to marry a woman and we were going to have children together.    My friends who are transgender ( some of who have transition and one who hasn't) have expressed to me that they also  knew at a very young age.    I would suggest it's both possible to know,   and to be gender questioning or gender fluid.

I also grew up in a household with mental illness.    I don't personally feel it had any impact on my being lesbian.    It did have an impact on how well I handled the challenges of being heteronormative.    the 2015 U.S. Transgender survey tells us that 40% of transgendered individuals have attempted suicide.    40%.    what an appalling high number.

There is a lot of nuance and complexity in sex/gender/ and sexuality.    It's a hard topic to talk about.   

hope this helps.

'ducks

[Mutt]

I would assume these kind of things should be lumped into many of the other "decisions" and "announcements" that get made in teenager-hood.  We as adults need to understand that they see these as "permanent" and have little ability to understand they may feel differently in 2 years... .or 10. 

Sorry I wasn’t trying to abandon the thread it’s been a busy week my gf is going through some unpleasantries at work with a coworker and I like to bounce ideas around my head so I like to take my time. I feel like I’ve gaiend a lot from everyone that’s participated in a subject that we’re just starting to get to understand and speaking understanding I struggle with empathizing with adolescence. I agree with what you’re saying formflier likes, dislikes, thoughts, styles, interests can change often, she was interested in gymnastics just a few months and she just stopped.

[Mutt]

I would caution that approaching this as a "you may not know what you are/want at age 12" runs the risk of invalidating something that could be at the very core of your child's being. (S)he may have known this at an early age and struggled for a number of years to understand it and is just now willing to share.

The more you leave it open to exploring the future together, the more validation exists.

  Very well said Gagrl

She has said mentioned that she felt like this when she was younger. My mom mentioned mentioned something that I thought was interesting, when she was the same age she wished that she was a boy because she thought that it was unfair that her brothers could run out and play and have a good time while she’s stuck inside the house doing chores.

[Mutt]

Can the boys corroborate the DV at the other home? Given that she's decided this seemingly out of the blue the last few months, which is atypical, maybe she doesn't feel safe being female at the other home.  Even so, i agree with the others about treading the validation line lightly.

Is the DV actionable on your side?

Good observation Turk Im not sure about the DV I should make a call and talk to a lawyer. My S10 said today that he’s really glad that he’s at my house this week so that telegraphed that there’s something going on on the other side. He said that mom is looking to move and D12 said that mom is looking for a new house because it’s not safe to be st home with her bf she said she’ll consider going back to him if he is serious about therapy.

I asked her she felt because I sensed that there’s something wrong, I asked her if she’s going to miss because they’ve known him for awhile and she said no. I said there has to be something positive that you can say about him and she said no.

[Mutt]

It's possible, Mutt, that your kid sees you as a the strong one or sees men in general as better able to navigate these chaotic challenges. I'm not saying this to generalize or to say that women aren't able to navigate these challenges, but we can't forget the worldview of kids and what it feels like to be a 12 year old looking around grasping at generalizations.

It’s possible I’ve been doing a lot of weight lifting in the last three years and she commented that I look like I could seriously hurt someone. The kids are a reason why I got into it because I was finding that I was getting sick often with bronchitis so I quit smoking and I wanted to get stronger so I can handle the stress better. I don’t want to generalize either there are women that have very strong physiques in the gym.

[Mutt]

Here's something my T suggested to me (SD20 came out as transgender), "I might make mistakes in how I respond, and I hope you can be patient with me. I'll need to catch up to where you're already at, you've had a bit of a head start on this. I'm glad you told me so you don't feel alone carrying this. I imagine it took courage to share this with people you love, and I'm touched you are telling me. I admire you so much for how brave you are."

  I like this a lot it’s very thoughtful.

For what it's worth, SD20 came out as bisexual (16), gay (17), then 2 years ago as transgender (18). She is now dating a boy. Over the years, she has gone from short hair and men's clothes and a man's name to long hair, women's clothing, and back to her given name. While she announced that she was transgender, she did not let anyone know when she no longer felt that way. It just happened.

It’s kind of the reverse with my D12 she didn’t give any hints that she was transgender it just happened. That goes back to what formflier said about changing thoughts often I remember thinking that how my thoughts changed from year to year even in my early twenties.

I also think it's important that you get to express how you feel, with peers, like your favorite peanut gallery here  

Hehe thanks livednlearned I just needed to vent and get an idea from what others thought.

SO felt blindsided and confused and loves SD20 to pieces. Even being open-minded and supportive, he also felt angry and scared and needed to have his feelings heard.

The point being that he refused to let everything be about transgender issues because for him, it wasn't always about that. Sometimes, it was just what it was -- normal parent/kid tensions.

Thanks for sharing that story. It just feels there’s a certain level of awkwardness I’ve know her all her life we have a close f/s I took her specifically to Montreal with me last year so that we could spend time together it was a great trip with her were we really got to spend some quality time together and she spent quality time with family in Eastern Canada too. It was a lot of fun and I wanted to create good memories with her that she’ll retain later on in life she’s old enough now that she’ll remember.

[Turkish]

He said that mom is looking to move and D12 said that mom is looking for a new house because it’s not safe to be st home with her bf she said she’ll consider going back to him if he is serious about therapy.

Similar to what my ex said to her husband. While likely true,  I can't help but wonder how much is projection. Unbelievable that our ex's abandoned families to flee to relationships which were obviously going to end in more drama sooner rather than later 

At least she's taking action finally. 

[Mutt]

What I would like to share with you is while I was sure of what I was feeling,   at 13 years old I did not have the breathe/depth of language and maturity to communicate those feelings without fumbling.    the fumbling was not in regards to what I felt, only my ability to express it.

I can just imagine how hard it would be to tell your parents at that age. I really felt fir her when she was trying to tell me and invalidated her about making it about me. She stayed at her moms for a month until I said that it’s enough time and we’re following the court order unless her and mom to have it changed.

gender identity is typically set in the brain around five years old and for many/most people, gender identity and sex match.   not for everyone.    and that typically surfaces around puberty when the body starts to change and more strongly display the biological package.

From what she shared she said around this age is when she felt like a boy, she’s been back for a few days and I’m just observing I’m not bringing up what happened a few weeks ago I would like to talk to her about it more, I’m hoping that she shares.

another point from the science,... ."Sexual Reassignment Surgery or Gender Affirmation Surgery is not the goal for all trans individuals.    The majority of trans individuals do not have surgery."

Here were I live a person has to take counselling for two years before they perform surgery I have a transgender friend that told me that, she went through surgery. I hadn’t seen her in years I knew her brother when I was in my late teens I was friends with her family.

She offered to come out as her old self so that I could say goodbye I didn’t want her to. I remembered in my mind it was a nice gesture.

the 2015 U.S. Transgender survey tells us that 40% of transgendered individuals have attempted suicide.    40%.    what an appalling high number.

Those statistics are very sad to hear ducks

[babyducks]

From what she shared she said around this age is when she felt like a boy

Hi Mutt,

when an infant is born they are assigned a ~sex~.    most people assume the doctor looks between the baby's legs and says Viola - Girl.  or Congratulations you have Boy.   sometimes it's not that easy.

the infant (of course) has no idea what their sex is.    that's something they learn in the first years of life.    that's the gender identity; the psychological knowledge of gender that lives in our brains.   in the early years (like 2 to 4 years old) it's not quite set yet.    that's why the 'experts' tell us not to worry if Johnny wants to wear pink or Susie wants to play with a football.   by 5 or 6 years old the child is starting to identify as I am a boy.   Or I am a girl.   which ever.   but that becomes firm.

then there is gender expression; how we tell others our gender using commonly understood cultural cues.    that can be fluid.   In subtle and not so subtle ways.   Kind of like what livednlearned was talking about upstream.   It might be changes in appearance.   It may be changes in interests.   It may be conscious or unconscious.

a person who presents with a sex of male,  a gender identity of I am a Man, and a strong gender expression of masculine might walk into the living room and see the sofa full of dogs, children and people and say "Hey make room I am a big guy and I need some space."

while a person who presents with a sex of male, a gender identity of I am a Man but whose gender expression is agender or neutral might walk into the same living room and see the sofa full of dogs, children and people and say "move over I want to sit down too."

obviously a ridiculously simple example.   there is nothing ~wrong~ with either way to sit down.   it's more about where people are on the various spectrums.

at 12 its very difficult to tell the difference between biological sex/ gender identity / gender expression.   Heck most adults don't realize those are three separate things.    how can a 12 year old?   and yeah there is some overlap between the three.    It reminds me in a way of the overlap and interplay between illness on the b cluster.   can trained people determine the difference between bipolar, BPD and/or NPD?    yeah but it's never easy and I believe it does drift.

so this  could be a fluctuation in gender expression.   something like I want to wear leather jackets and heavy work boots because I feel tougher, stronger,  safer.   in our teens I think many of played with our gender expression.  and sometimes we might have done it to freak out our parents.

if it's the unveiling of a previously hidden gender identity that's something else.  I like the old saying that common things happen commonly and rare things happen rarely.

I think you've taken a good approach.   observing and learning.   I wish you and your child well.

'ducks

[Radcliff]

Earlier this evening, I wrote a reply to a new member and basically said, "Whatever you've got, bring your big problems here, this place can take it."

This is an impressive thread.  'ducks and lighthouse9 and everyone else, thanks for teaching.  I find the idea of having a transgender child very intimidating, because it seems like such a hard road.  To me, surgery is the scariest thing to think about my child experiencing, so it was interesting to hear that it is not something all trans individuals undergo.  Of course, what I as an observer (attached to my original equipment  ) identify as the scariest thing is not necessarily the scariest.  There must be so many challenges.

Last year, I found a crush note on the family computer from D12 to a female middle school teacher that was almost surely written on the computer and never delivered.  I haven't said anything about it.  I've just made sure cool it on any gender-normative comments about marriage, etc. and once or twice when talking about relationship or marriage partners have thrown in "guy or gal."  For my area of the country, coming out as simply lesbian is actually becoming fairly vanilla   My biggest risk might be assuming it was nothing when maybe I need to be tuned a little bit to issues.  If it comes up, I'll make sure to bring it here for advice!

WW

[formflier]

I also want to say impressive thread, got me to think about lots of things... .especially from a parenting perspective.

There seems to be an interesting (and quite difficult) balance to the "message" that needs to be sent to d12... .or any potential child.

Priority 1 is to recognize how blessed you are as a parent that they would "come out" to you and to realize that openness (however relative) is a very delicate thing.

There is a very nuanced approach of listening and asking questions to better understand because this could be at the core of their identity.  It could also be an attempt to be shocking and different.  

This is likely a place where the totality of the relationship comes to play.  If your kid has a history of "doing shocking things" to "tweak" their parents... .then perhaps this is an extension of that.

If there is no history of outlandish claims in the relationship, then I would think it unlikely someone would "come out" for any reason other than to be "more open and honest" with the people they are in relationship with.

There is also a message to a child that there will be people that "don't agree" or in some cases will "persecute" your choices or who you are.  That sucks... .but it's out there.

I don't personally know anyone that is open about transgender.  I had some teenage friends in high school that claimed that (among tons of other claims)... .and at various times would be "honest" that they were just trying to be shocking... and other times claimed it was "real".  

I do personally know several gay males that I flew with in the military (before you could "come out" and it was no big deal.  They did their job, they were good squadron mates... .it really wasn't a thing.

Anyway... .solid thread.  Keep it up.

Mutt... .any updates on the conversations with D12?

FF

[livednlearned]

SD20 told me that she saw a psychiatrist who specializes in transgender issues, and that it wasn't all that helpful because the focus was mostly about surgery/transition issues.

Then she found a progressive therapist who was there to listen to anything that came up, the one she ended up seeing for several years and visits whenever she is home from college.

Does your D12 have someone she can talk to about this stuff? It seemed to make all the difference for SD20. 

[Pretty Woman]

Mutt,
  That is so very brave of your daughter.

I am still not out of the closet with my father... .and I am 43. I think it's very, very hard to articulate these things to someone you know will be disappointed, someone you really love. You are already faced with rejection and being ostracized by peers, the public at large... .no one wants to bring more of that on themselves.

The only advice I can impart on you, and I give this because I have three close friends who are transgender, one who just had her male to female surgery this week... .

Educate yourself on it. Read up all you can. Don't express disappointment in your daughter. Tell her you love her and thank her for coming to you, that she can always come to you. Please don't push her away based on your personal issues with the matter.

Listen to her. You don't need to speak. Just listen.

As one poster mentioned, she is still very young. I am not saying to encourage her and tell her "go for it". Just emphasize how important she is and how much you really love her. Let her follow her own life path but make it clear you are there for her always.
 

[Mutt]

Listen to her. You don't need to speak. Just listen.

As one poster mentioned, she is still very young. I am not saying to encourage her and tell her "go for it". Just emphasize how important she is and how much you really love her. Let her follow her own life path but make it clear you are there for her

Thank you for sharing your words of wisdom Pretty Woman. We had a good week for her first week back we were both laughing a couple of times it felt good.