In need of a safe environment to admit my feelings

[Fie]

Hello,

I am in need of a safe environment to vent.

I have been doing good lately. A lot better than before, I am more at peace with myself, and that’s new to me. I know where most of my ‘stuff’ comes from, it most of the time has to do with the fear of being abandoned by people. But lately I have been managing my feelings well. I have been discharged from therapy because my therapist reckons I am able to walk through life by myself for a while, and I guess that’s a good thing.
A good friend of mine came to visit me this weekend. We had a fall out over something really silly. We were in a shop and I got talking with a salesman. I asked my friend if she wanted to pass him my phone number. She said no, you can do this yourself. I don’t know how it happened exactly, but I felt disappointed about that (I have done the exact same thing I asked her for somebody else recently, and I didn’t see any harm in my question) and this made me feel angry.   I felt that if she was my friend she could do this little thing for me, and moreover I didn’t know why she reacted so firm. At the exact same moment I realized that my feelings were a bit out of control, and I needed to be more rational about it. I felt I needed to sit with my feelings for a while so they could subside, but my friend was around, so this was not possible. After that we went to a restaurant by car. The car drive was silent. Let’s say I was sulking a bit. But also she was quiet. Suddenly she asked why I had been angry over this. I wanted to admit to her that yes I had been angry, and that this was because I had felt abandoned. There was however not really room for that, she started saying that I had no reason being angry because she had the right to say no. That I crossed her boundary by pushing her (I had indeed asked her why she didn’t want to go ask the phone number, while I could have left it to that).
I saw that there was no room for me being angry or admitting to it. She was angry herself. So I said I was not angry but disappointed. She than went on and on, that she had boundaries and that I crossed them. And that I had no right being angry, and by saying I wasn’t, I all turned it around to her (which could have been true, I changed my ‘anger’ to ‘disappointment’ but somehow she also was projecting because she was angry about me crossing her boundary). I went silent somehow. I felt that she exaggerated a bit but I also knew that I started the whole thing. I asked her twice to make up, she answered me twice that she felt like going home. Finally we went to the restaurant anyway : her son was with us and we promised we would take him out. It was more me who somehow pointed this out, she just said, well plans can change.
I know this is only silly. But I am so disappointed with myself. How can I let my feelings get so out of control. This is the exact thing I have been working on in therapy for the last 1,5 years: not feeling abandoned by people so easily. The fact that my friend told me : ‘this is weird, I always have those little fallouts with you, I never have this with others’, didn’t exactly help. I keep hearing those words.
I know it’s not really true : she does have fallouts with others. And the day after she came back on it herself, saying that she didn’t really want to turn it on me, and that she probably had exaggerated her anger.
But it does stick. I have another friend (probably NPD, ok) that I lost recently, and stuff like this makes me feel so incredibly abnormal. I know that relationships are never easy, and the more you frequent people, the more ‘stuff’ you can have going on. And I do see people on a regular basis, I am quite social. But I feel abnormal. Sometimes I feel like retracting myself in my house and not seeing anyone anymore.

I am sorry for my long story, that is about nothing really, when you compare it with people’s problems on here. But I just needed a safe place to admit my feelings. I hope that’s ok.
I sometimes feel more vulnerable then most people around me, and I hope to find some people here who understand.

[heartandwhole]

Hi Fie,

In my eyes, you are not abnormal at all. I can understand and relate you your feelings. When we have a core hurt, like a belief that people will always leave us, or that we just aren’t good enough, we can do very well while it’s not “activated” by events outside. I read in one book that it’s like having a broken toe. It doesn’t necessarily hurt until someone steps on it— then, watch out!

I experienced something similar with a close friend after my breakup. A silly disagreement appeared to trigger us both and she cut me off completely for months. And we worked together every day. I felt really hurt and disappointed. Like you, I had asked her to drop it and make up, but she preferred to distance herself from me. I left her alone and she eventually came back and kind of apogized.

You say you need to control your feelings and get more rational. But can we control our feelings, or just the way we express our emotions? As for getting rational, do you think reframing the thoughts that are running through your mind at that moment could help? For example, the belief that your friend was abandoning you could be questioned, or even set aside while you experience the feelings in your body and do nothing about them, initially.

I realize all of the above is just blah blah when we are in the heat of the moment. But we can at least reflect on our options in calmer times and maybe even communicate what we were going through with the other person, if we feel safe doing that.

You have a right to your feelings. Whatever they are. We all have a broken toe and tender spots. It’s our responsibility to deal with them, and that can be difficult. It has been for me—I still regularly fail to follow my own advice.    It sounds like your friend might have been struggling too, because she wanted to exit right away, and kept defending herself.

Keep sharing your journey, Fie. You are not alone. 

heartandwhole

[phantomglitter]

Hi Fie!

You may have gotten emotional, but you still had some awareness of the situation, which in my (humble) opinion is already a huge step. You can work with that. I had a similar situation just yesterday, over something completely silly. My boyfriend, his brother and I were playing a game. The brothers are all super good at these kinds of games, and although it's ridiculous, I'm constantly worried that I'm not good enough at this game and that if I make too many "stupid mistakes" my boyfriend won't see any reason to stay with me. I like this game, but I get frustrated with myself very easily because the game is pretty complex and when I don't understand something the brothers both try to explain while talking loudly over each other. When this happened yesterday, I told the brother to stop talking, and for them to go one at a time. I was also very visibly upset because I had encountered a new rule that made absolutely no sense to me. Still, I've been working on being less of a perfectionist with this game. The brother sent a text to my boyfriend, saying that he doesn't like the way I respond to frustration, because he doesn't deal well with conflict (he has some anger issues, though he has improved in the 7 years I've known him). When my boyfriend told me this, I was convinced that I was ruining everything, I told him they should just play without me, that there was no point if I always just get upset, and I needed to take a minute for myself because I realized I sounded just like my BPD mom. This terrified me, because I don't want to be like her. I don't want to be alone and angry with everyone and out of control. So, I took a minute to collect my thoughts and do some deep breathing to recenter myself. I admitted to myself that I was overreacting and tried to get to the heart of the issue. What's bothering me? What do I want from this? What do I want to say? How can I make someone who has never experienced abuse and has a ton of self-love and self-confidence understand my lack of confidence and fear of being abandonned for not being good enough? When I was more calm I had him sit beside me, and told him I was going to talk and then he could have a turn after. I explained my fears, I told him my anger and frustration was with me, not with anyone else (because it isn't, there's just a lot of self-loathing going on, which I'm working on), and that I was really angry with myself for making him feel uncomfortable, because I know what that's like and it's the last thing I would want to do to him. I also told him that I had been doing a lot of work in terms of letting go of my mistakes relating to this game, so as not to get so frustrated and that it feels as though it isn't making a difference. The last thing I said was that sometimes I felt like everyone would be better off without me being in the equation, but that I wanted to be there, and that made me feel guilty. I apologized for my behaviour. My boyfriend is an amazing man, he inspires me every day and is constantly teaching me about self-love and healthy relationships through his example. He said he understood. That my efforts do show and that he appreciates it. That he wants me to be in the equation, and that things are better with me there. That the fact that his brother went out of his way to bring it up means that he wants to continue playing, not that I was ruining everything. And then he made me dinner and we watched a movie together. I still feel awkward for making myself vulnerable, but I'm glad I did that. My mother would have continued to deny her part and blame the other. I had the awareness to be able to see that I was at fault, and I owned up to it.

Phew, that was long! All that to say that you're not alone. This happens to everyone, like heartandwhole said, those tender spots tend to make us react when they are touched, but for those of us who have been made to feel lesser, or not good enough, or not worthy of love, or like a ruiner of things, those spots are a little bit everywhere. Our reactions tend to come out at seemingly silly things, but are indicative of a deeper issue. Fear of abandonment, fear of not being good enough, self-loathing, low self-confidence, etc.

Can I offer an alternative scenario for your friend's behaviour? She may be experimenting with setting boundaries in her life, and people can get a little over-zealous when they first start by saying no to everything. Maybe she tested her boundary setting on you. You weren't aware of this, so you were a bit taken back. Why wouldn't she help me with this? It's such a small thing, it makes no sense. Your fear hits, and you get angry because it seems like she's abandoning you, or like she doesn't really care. You might wonder what you've done to cause this, or what could be so wrong with you that your friend suddenly doesn't like you anymore. She sees that you are angry and feels selfish for denying such a trivial request, but responds with anger and tries to justify/defend herself because it's hard to admit that you were wrong, especially in the moment. In the car, it's quiet, her guilt is growing, and she gets angry with herself for feeling this way. She should be better at setting boundaries, it's her right to choose what she does. She shouldn't feel bad for asserting herself. You shouldn't be upset with her for finally standing up for herself. You should understand (even though she hasn't told you about her situation or her desire to set boundaries in her life). We often jump to blaming ourselves, that's our default, but you are not the root cause of all bad things that happen (even though it sometimes feels that way).

Emotions happen. That's not going to change, unless you are a robot. What I've learned recently is that just because I feel something, that doesn't make it true. Just because I feel afraid that I'll be abandoned doesn't mean I'm at risk of that happening. The feeling will be there, and we have to make the decision of whether that feeling is warranted or not, and then what to do with it. You have the awareness, which is already huge, so now you have the power to choose what you do with your feelings. Mistakes will happen. Sometimes you'll feel like you've been stabbed in the most painful of places and you'll lash out. That is not what defines you. What defines you is what you do about it.

I hope something in here is helpful, sending a little extra love your way.  

[Fie]

Thank you, both of you, to have taken the time to answer so thoughtfully.

It really does help. I also already felt better having typed everything out.

The toe remark was spot on. I guess I have to keep that one in mind, and forgive myself for having feelings that I wish I didn't have. Thing is, I don't want to be an angry person !  I am generally percieved as really calm, and that's also how and who I want to be. I don't want to be overwhelmed by anger, just because a friend refuses to do something for me.

Thank you also Heartandwhole, for saying I have  a right to my feelings. That softens up a bit how I feel about myself now.

Phantwowlitter, you as well sound very sensible. That was really strong of you, to have this conversation with your boyfriend like that. Apparently he also is open to communicate directly ; I am happy you have this bond together. This is really nice to hear that people can be receptive to their partners' old wounds, not using this against them but accompanying them through this adventure called life. I have to remember that. I am single and one day I hope to find someone who can mean exactly this. So far, most of my relationships were not healthy, so it's great to hear that it's possible !
I wish I could have been as honest as you with my friend. I wanted to ... .But when I was going to admit that I had been angry, I saw that she was really p... .off, so I backed off and just fell back in my (old) role of peacemaker, feeling scared (once again) that she'd be so angry that she'd abandon me.

Thanks also for the 'extra love' you sent my way. I needed that

[YouHadMeAtHello]

Hi Fie.

The story you wrote really interests me because it's exactly like the situations I get into with my sister who is uBPD.  It happens ALL the time.  I think things are fine, but suddenly she is upset and I have no idea what to do.  I used to fall all over myself trying to apologize and calm her down, but over the years I've honestly just gotten sick of it.  She will ask me to do things that I think are inappropriate and when I say no, she freaks out. 

For example, a few years ago she was dating a guy and a few months into dating him his dad died unexpectedly.  I had never met her boyfriend and definitely hadn't met his dad.  My sister asked me to go to the wake and funeral with her to support her.  I said no because I hadn't even met her boyfriend.  I thought the request was very strange and why would you need support to mourn someone you didn't even know?  In my mind she should go and support her boyfriend and that's that.  After I told her I wouldn't go to the wake/funeral she didn't speak to me for months.  It came up again in a conversation and she started yelling at me and we were in public so I just left.  That's just one example of hundreds, of course. 

So, my question is, what do you want a friend to do in these situations?  Assume that, for whatever reason, they aren't comfortable doing what you ask.  What should they say?  Is there any way to avoid a fight? 

I'll be honest, I have basically given up on my sister now.  I don't know if we will ever have a real relationship again because all her fighting over nothing has worn me down.  The relationship now feels far more bad than good and doesn't seem worth it.  But, that might change one day and if it does I want to know what a person can do to keep things calm without being verbally abused for having boundaries. 

[No-One]

Fie:
I'm sorry about the conflict with your friend.  No one is perfect and we occasionally have a bad day, when our brain wiring gets us in an uncomfortable situation.  It sounds like both you and your friend had a bad day at the same time. Don't beat yourself up.  I hope that both you and your friend can put this behind you and strengthen your friendship. 

I think that many here inherited some degree of the family genetics/wiring.  Most people will struggle with managing some weakness throughout their life.  For some, it may be an addiction.  For others, it's something else, like an occasional issue with anger.

I thought I'd share the interesting article below.  It has some tips on a technique to use, to hopefully prevent your brain from getting hijacked. I have to admit, my brain has gotten hijacked occasionally.

Calming Your Brain During Conflict
By Diane Musho Hamilton, Harvard Business Review

Conflict wreaks havoc on our brains. We are groomed by evolution to protect ourselves whenever we sense a threat. In our modern context, we don’t fight like a badger with a coyote, or run away like a rabbit from a fox. But our basic impulse to protect ourselves is automatic and unconscious.

We have two amygdala, one on each side of the brain, behind the eyes and the optical nerves. Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk, in his book The Body Keeps the Score, calls this the brain’s “smoke detector.” It’s responsible for detecting fear and preparing our body for an emergency response.

When we perceive a threat, the amygdala sounds an alarm, releasing a cascade of chemicals in the body. Stress hormones like adrenaline and cortisol flood our system, immediately preparing us for fight or flight. When this deeply instinctive function takes over, we call it what Daniel Goleman coined in Emotional Intelligence as “amygdala hijack.” In common psychological parlance we say, “We’ve been triggered.” We notice immediate changes like an increased heart rate or sweaty palms. Our breathing becomes more shallow and rapid as we take in more oxygen, preparing to bolt if we have to.

The flood of stress hormones create other sensations like a quivering in our solar plexus, limbs, or our voice. We may notice heat flush our face, our throat constrict, or the back of our neck tighten and jaw set. We are in the grip of a highly efficient, but prehistoric set of physiological responses. These sensations are not exactly pleasant — they’re not meant for relaxation. They’re designed to move us to action.

The active amygdala also immediately shuts down the neural pathway to our prefrontal cortex so we can become disoriented in a heated conversation. Complex decision-making disappears, as does our access to multiple perspectives. As our attention narrows, we find ourselves trapped in the one perspective that makes us feel the most safe: “I’m right and you’re wrong,” even though we ordinarily see more perspectives.

 Have you ever been in a fight with your partner or friend, and you literally can’t remember a positive thing about them? It’s as though the brain drops the memory function altogether in an effort to survive the threat. When our memory is compromised like this, we can’t recall something from the past that might help us calm down. In fact, we can’t remember much of anything. Instead, we’re simply filled with the flashing red light of the amygdala indicating “Danger, react. Danger, protect. Danger, attack.”

In the throes of amygdala hijack, we can’t choose how we want to react because the old protective mechanism in the nervous system does it for us — even before we glimpse that there could be a choice.  It is ridiculous.

Practicing Mindfulness in Conflict
Mindfulness is the perfect awareness technique to employ when a conflict arises — whether it’s at work or home. It allows us to override the conditioned nervous system with conscious awareness. Instead of attacking or recoiling, and later justifying our reactions, we can learn to stay present, participate in regulating our own nervous system, and eventually, develop new, more free and helpful ways of interacting.

Practicing mindfulness in the middle of a conflict demands a willingness to stay present, to feel intensely, to override our negative thoughts, and to engage our breath to maintain presence with the body. Like any skill, it takes practice.
There are different approaches to working with a provoked nervous system and intense emotions, but they all have some elements in common. Here are four simple steps (which I also describe in my book, Everything is Workable) that I try to use when I find myself with an overloaded nervous system and a body racing with a fight or flight impulse.

Step 1: Stay present.
The first step in practicing mindfulness when triggered is to notice we are provoked. We may notice a change in our tone of voice, gripping sensations in the belly, or a sudden desire to withdraw. Each of us has particular bodily and behavioral cues that alert us to the reality that we feel threatened, and are therefore running on automatic pilot.

We have to decide to stay put and present, to be curious and explore our experience. For me, it helps to remind myself to relax. I have a visual cue that I use that involves my son. When I’m worked up, he has the habit of looking at me, raising and lowering his hands in a calming fashion, and saying “Easy Windmill.”  I try to reflect on this and it helps me calm down because he’s so charming when he does it.
Step 2: Let go of the story.
This might be the most difficult part of the practice. We need to completely let go of the thinking and judging mind. This is a very challenging step because when we feel threatened, the mind immediately fills with all kinds of difficult thoughts and stories about what’s happening. But we must be willing to forget the story, just for a minute, because there is a feedback loop between our thoughts and our body. If the negative thoughts persist, so do the stressful hormones. It isn’t that we’re wrong, but we will be more far more clear in our perceptions when the nervous system has relaxed.

Step 3: Focus on the body.
Now simply focus on feeling and exploring whatever sensations arise in the body. We feel them naturally, just as they are, not trying to control or change them. We allow the mind to be as open as possible, noticing the different places in the body where sensations occur, what is tight, shaky, rushing, or hurts. We pay attention to the different qualities and textures of the sensations, and the way things change and shift. We can also notice how biased we are against unpleasant or more intense sensations.

Step 4: Finally, breathe.
Everybody knows that it helps to breathe. There are many different qualities of the breath, but we only need to learn about two: Rhythm and smoothness. As Alan Watkins explains in his book Coherence: The Secret Science of Brilliant Leadership, if we focus on these two dimensions, even for a few short minutes, the production of the cortisol and adrenaline will stop.

To breath rhythmically means that the in-breath and out-breath occur repeatedly at the same intervals. So if we inhale, counting 1, 2, 3, and 4, and then exhale, counting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, then inhale again, counting 1, 2, 3, and 4, and then exhale again, counting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6; this establishes rhythm.

At the same time, we should invite the breath to be even or smooth, meaning that the volume of the breath stays consistent as it moves in and out, like sipping liquid through a narrow straw. If we manage those two qualities for just a few minutes, the breath assists us in remaining present, making it possible to stay with intense sensation in the body.

Paying attention to our body re-establishes equilibrium faster, restoring our ability to think, to listen, and relate. This takes practice, but eventually, we retrain ourselves to respond rather than to react. Anger becomes clarity and resolve, sadness leads to compassion, jealousy becomes fuel for change.

There will also be certain moments when we fail. Becoming more intimate with our body’s response to a hijacked nervous system is challenging, to say the least. This is because the sensations are very uncomfortable, our emotions are volatile, and our mind is usually filling with unsupportive thoughts like “Get me outta here,” or “How can they be saying that?” or “This is a waste of my time.”

Each time we succeed in being mindful of our body in moments of distress, we develop our capacity. Even more, we may observe something new when it occurs. A moment of pause, an unexpected question when it appears or a laugh that erupts. When anything new happens, taking note of it helps to free us of the pattern to our old way of doing things. Before we know it, our old habit of fight or flight is changing, and the world is a safer place.

[Fie]

Thank you No-One for the article !

I think I have followed a lot of the steps of the article in the issue with my friend. I was very aware that I was angry, and I didn't act out. I did ask her why she reacted so firm. And I was quieter than usual.   I only wish I had not felt that angry feeling.


YouHadMeAtHello,

I am not sure I can be of any help. I am not BPD, and I would never retreat from a friendship for something minor like this. On the contrary, it was my friend who saw that I felt something she didn't like and who started acting out and saying she'd rather go home.

I will try to answer your question though, so maybe it can be of any help anyway.
What would have helped me ... .I think I initially was shocked because of her firm 'no', and because she didn't feel like explaining the 'no' even though she saw I was puzzled (at first) and a bit upset (a few moments later, after it appeared she didn't feel like explaining).

I think Phantwowlitter has it spot on here :

Can I offer an alternative scenario for your friend's behaviour? She may be experimenting with setting boundaries in her life, and people can get a little over-zealous when they first start by saying no to everything.

My friend used to have problems with boundary setting. She (like me) has been in a few abusive relationships. Since the last one ended, she has been working on setting more firm boundaries with people. I have respected that and admired her for it, but sometimes she's a little over-acting - not that I blame her for that. I think she's experimenting like Phantwowlitter says. She has a new job as a carer for homeless people and says she can practices the boundary setting a lot at work, because there is plenty of opportunity there. And I also think it's a necessity, not only at her job but just as a general rule, in our lives. I have been doing the same since my last break up, so I understand her.

What I also wish my friend had done, is listened to me. I tried to tell her that I was angry. Some 10 minutes after the shop incident I was at the point of telling her that I had been angry because I had felt abandoned by her. At that point my feelings had already subsided a little, and I felt like opening up. She knows about this issue of mine (has something similar), so I felt it could be safe to tell her this. But immediately I saw that there was no room for that, because she just started to somehow act out, and I shut down. I am very happy that at least at that point of time I was able to stay centered, but I do feel dissapointed with myself for getting this angry feeling in the shop.

The day after our fallout, my friend said that she had been annoyed by me staying so calm. She said it was annoying that I suddenly had start talking to calmly. That she got agitated by it. I just wish I could have been honest with her, and share with her my feelings. It feels like a lost opportunity. We didn't really talk everything through.

Also the day after the fallout, she luckily mentioned not having meant that I was the problem in fallouts that we have. But I do notice that I annoy her sometimes.  In the past she has mentioned that sometimes she gets puzzled / angry when I seem to have a strong opinion and that sometimes this makes her feel insecure, so she gets angry with me. (I think that was really great of her admitting that) At the time she had told me this, I told her that yes, I do have strong opinions sometimes but I don't mind her having other ones. She seemed relieved to hear that. I also told her that actually if there had been issues, she didn't need to worry because she had never really annoyed me with something (it was most of the time her starting some discussion, not me) - she seemed surprised to hear. The shop incident has actually been the first one where I felt angry with her.

So maybe that's another thing now, but I don't know what I can do to prevent my friend with feeling annoyed with me ... .I very much like and even love my friend. But there are differences between us. Thing is, I don't really mind but maybe my friend does. And I am afraid she will 'abandon' me because of that. But like I said, that's another issue maybe

[YouHadMeAtHello]

Thank you No-One for the article !

I think I have followed a lot of the steps of the article in the issue with my friend. I was very aware that I was angry, and I didn't act out. I did ask her why she reacted so firm. And I was quieter than usual.   I only wish I had not felt that angry feeling.


YouHadMeAtHello,

I am not sure I can be of any help. I am not BPD, and I would never retreat from a friendship for something minor like this. On the contrary, it was my friend who saw that I felt something she didn't like and who started acting out and saying she'd rather go home.

I will try to answer your question though, so maybe it can be of any help anyway.
What would have helped me ... .I think I initially was shocked because of her firm 'no', and because she didn't feel like explaining the 'no' even though she saw I was puzzled (at first) and a bit upset (a few moments later, after it appeared she didn't feel like explaining).

I think Phantwowlitter has it spot on here :

My friend used to have problems with boundary setting. She (like me) has been in a few abusive relationships. Since the last one ended, she has been working on setting more firm boundaries with people. I have respected that and admired her for it, but sometimes she's a little over-acting - not that I blame her for that. I think she's experimenting like Phantwowlitter says. She has a new job as a carer for homeless people and says she can practices the boundary setting a lot at work, because there is plenty of opportunity there. And I also think it's a necessity, not only at her job but just as a general rule, in our lives. I have been doing the same since my last break up, so I understand her.

What I also wish my friend had done, is listened to me. I tried to tell her that I was angry. Some 10 minutes after the shop incident I was at the point of telling her that I had been angry because I had felt abandoned by her. At that point my feelings had already subsided a little, and I felt like opening up. She knows about this issue of mine (has something similar), so I felt it could be safe to tell her this. But immediately I saw that there was no room for that, because she just started to somehow act out, and I shut down. I am very happy that at least at that point of time I was able to stay centered, but I do feel dissapointed with myself for getting this angry feeling in the shop.

The day after our fallout, my friend said that she had been annoyed by me staying so calm. She said it was annoying that I suddenly had start talking to calmly. That she got agitated by it. I just wish I could have been honest with her, and share with her my feelings. It feels like a lost opportunity. We didn't really talk everything through.

Also the day after the fallout, she luckily mentioned not having meant that I was the problem in fallouts that we have. But I do notice that I annoy her sometimes.  In the past she has mentioned that sometimes she gets puzzled / angry when I seem to have a strong opinion and that sometimes this makes her feel insecure, so she gets angry with me. (I think that was really great of her admitting that) At the time she had told me this, I told her that yes, I do have strong opinions sometimes but I don't mind her having other ones. She seemed relieved to hear that. I also told her that actually if there had been issues, she didn't need to worry because she had never really annoyed me with something (it was most of the time her starting some discussion, not me) - she seemed surprised to hear. The shop incident has actually been the first one where I felt angry with her.

So maybe that's another thing now, but I don't know what I can do to prevent my friend with feeling annoyed with me ... .I very much like and even love my friend. But there are differences between us. Thing is, I don't really mind but maybe my friend does. And I am afraid she will 'abandon' me because of that. But like I said, that's another issue maybe

Actually, that is helpful, thank you.  I didn't mean to imply you were/are BPD, just so we are clear on that.   

I had originally read that after your friend said no you were sulking, so I thought her reaction seemed normal.  But, it sounds like she was more annoyed than she probably should have been.  Obviously I read everything through my lens of experience with my sister.  At first this sounded a lot like the no win situations she puts me in all the time.  Sorry about that!  With my sister, I don't get annoyed immediately, but if she sulks or gets mad at me for having a boundary I will get annoyed and probably want to leave so she doesn't see my anger (nothing good could come of that).  So, from my first read I identified with your friend a lot, but based on the added info, I don't think I would have reacted the same and I always give my sister plenty of time and space to explain herself.  I know I have to adjust my behaviors, so I'm working on that. 

I think you have a great self-awareness from what you posted.  Setting boundaries is tough, it's even tougher with a BPD person as we all know here. 

[Fie]

Hello YouHadMeAtHello (just realizing how funny this sounds, twice the hello )

I do realize my 'abandonment issue' is a residue from my BPD upbringing. And maybe my upset over something so minor as my friends' reaction also is !  So don't worry.
And yes you are right, we see everything through our own lense ... .this can make life so incredibly interesting at times ... and difficult at other times !

You were asking on how you can react to your sister. I have learned on here that it's important to validate emotions - not facts. F.e. your sister is upset over something that you think is not justified. Our natural reaction is saying 'are you kidding, that's not true !' So, defending ourselves. I have done that *plenty* of times in my last relationship (he was NPD/BPD). Every time he said 'I am sure you cheated on me !' I told him 'no', he then just continued with the 'yes you did' and on I went, explaining why I hadn't cheated on him. Ridiculous of course, but somehow I didn't understand that he didn't believe me, and that if I'd explain enough, he would. But the more I explained, the more enraged he became.
What actually does oftentimes help, is not defending yourself (this is called 'don't JADE', and not validating the facts, but instead validate the emotions. It's also not necessary to keep denying the facts ('no I didn't cheat). In case of my ex and me, this would have been : not : me saying 'ok you are right', to give him his way and keep the peace (= validate the facts) but : 'I can see this would upset you if you are thinking I was cheating on you ! That must feel horrible !' (hug)
What we should not do, is validate the facts ('ok, you are right and I am wrong'. In case of the cheating, I never validated the facts but for a lot of other things I just went along with the 'facts' to keep the peace. Well anyway, my ex was more NPD then BPD so I don't think it would have helped a lot with him, maybe just a little. He was a very mean person. But you get the idea.

I do notice that this validating emotions is very useful, also with non BPD persons. I do it all of the time. Also with my daughter. It works for everyone - BPD just need a much higher dose of it  

Actually I also would have liked it if my friend would have reacted like that, saying sth in the line of 'If you are thinking that I don't care about you, I can understand that this would make you angry. I do care a lot about you but I just see this issue differently.   Let's go eat a pizza. To show you how much I care, my treat'   :-)

I hope that's adding something !

[Harri]

Hello Fie!  I have missed you!  So happy to see you, tho not for the circumstances.

This is a really good conversation and demonstration of what we experience as we navigate interacting with people and how interlocking wounds can lead to some difficulties.  I am glad your friend eventually talked more about what was going on for her.  I understand your shutting down too.  I do that too when I am hurt and especially when I am confused about what just happened or how not to make things worse.  I think you did well with it all though I wonder if there is still room for a bit more discussion with her regarding what happened for you.  There is nothing wrong with saying 'you know I was thinking about that day and I just want to say ____ ' and see where it goes.  That way you are not making a big deal about things but you do get to voice your thoughts even a bit.  Or maybe don't do that with this incident but think about it for future interactions.  Chances are since you are both working through similar issues, this type of thing will happen and it is equally important that you feel heard and understood as well.

Another thought I had while reading is to wonder why being angry seems to be a bad thing to you.  Anger is just another emotion and it no more defines you than any other emotion you may feel.  Feeling angry does not mean you are angry right?  You did not act on your anger or hurt or fear of abandonment and honestly, that impresses me because feeling all of those things at once can be hard when trying to work on being healthy with other people. 

Anger just is.  It is okay to feel it.  And it is perfectly normal given the circumstances and your internal wounds.  I think being okay with it is important for being able to manage it well.

Why do you feel anger is a bad thing?  Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[No-One]

Fie:
If I understand the original situation correctly, you were interested in dating the salesman and wanted your friend to pass him your phone number and perhaps say something to him about what she was doing?  Am I understanding correctly?

Just throwing out some comments/questions, as food for thought:

In what way did your friend's refusal to pass your phone number to the salesman make you feel abandoned versus disappointed?

Perhaps your friend was a bit shy, or for some other reason, was just uncomfortable complying with the request.  If she is working on her boundaries, she may be trying to break a habit of being a "people pleaser".

Could your friend have felt that if she aided you in connecting with a potential new boyfriend that she could be abandoned by you?  i.e. generally when a single friend establishes a relationshp with a boyfriend, they are less available to their girlfriends.

[Fie]

Hello Harribold, old friend 

I have been wondering how you have been doing and was at the point of sending you a message a few times. But didn't want to push you ... .when you are ready !

I am glad your friend eventually talked more about what was going on for her.

That's an excellent point, I'm glad you pointed that out. The last few days I notice a little feeling of resentment in me towards my friend, for having been so harsh. It's true that the next day we were able to talk about it a little. She admitted on having exxagerated in her anger, and I told her I had been shocked that she didn't want to make up when I asked (twice) and in stead only became angrier. I didn't own up to my initial feelings of anger / abandonment, and I won't. I just don't feel the setting is right now. But you are right, in the future I will try to be brave about this.

Another thought I had while reading is to wonder why being angry seems to be a bad thing to you. 

Because I want to be this sweet person that everyone likes, who's always calm and balanced and doesn't get angry 

There's another thread that points out our culture not allowing anger in women ; I guess the poster is right. Although it's a state of mind I personally don't like in men, either.

And well, you know ... .Mum BPD, father NPD(ish?), me being the odd one/scapegoat ... .that doesn't leave much space for me expressing anger right ?  ;-) 


No-one,

If I understand the original situation correctly, you were interested in dating the salesman and wanted your friend to pass him your phone number

Yes, you got that right. I have been given the advice on not being so passive with men :-) 
It's true that I have always been kind of shy in approaching men. This combined with the fact that they do approach me, has put me in the position that I just wait until they take the initial step. Someone recently pointed out that some men are just too shy themselves, and that some nice opportunities might pass by like that.  And I realize he's right. So ... .with the salesmen I thought, let's take some initiative, but not too much ... I will ask my friend if she wants to give him my number ! As a sort of middle way. I didn't see any harm in that question, I have recently been asked to do exactly this for someone, and I was happy to help her out.

Could your friend have felt that if she aided you in connecting with a potential new boyfriend that she could be abandoned by you?  i.e. generally when a single friend establishes a relationshp with a boyfriend, they are less available to their girlfriends.

Hmm, that's kind of interesting. When I asked her why she refused so firmly, she said 'just because you can do this yourself, and anyway, isn't he too young for you ?'

I had not thought about his age, frankly, it was more of an exersise for me, to learn how to approach men. I just thought he had kind eyes, I had no intention in marrying him 

[Fie]

@YouHadMeAtHello,

I don't know if you are still following, but in case you are:

I have thought about the situation with your sister and the dead father of her boyfriend. Do you  think it's possible she was scared to go meet all of these new people at once, by herself ? And that she thought, let's ask my sister if she wants to join me, so that I'm not alone ?

You said no, because to you her question was strange, and I understand that. But she heard : 'Yes, indeed, you will be in this church by yourself, and I don't love you enough to come and help you face all of those people'.

Would you say your sister is very social with new people ?

[Fie]

@Phantwowlitter,

I'm glad you wondered out loud if my friend was experimenting with boundary setting. The answer was as you probably read yes, and I am also realizing that the same is going on for me.

I have been asked out on a date, I refused because I had something else going on that night. He said 'Can't you just drop out for once ?'  (this is someone I have never met)
My initial reaction was : 'heh, hear we go. We have never met, and he's already pushing it, asking me to drop things for him. This cannot be a good match'.  But then I thought about your comment and I wondered, maybe I am also sometimes exagerating a little with the boundary setting. Yes, he didn't need to ask this, but this might have been a harmless question, from a really nice  person.

So I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, and told him we can go on a date another day, if he wants to

[Sunfl0wer]

I ended up reading this thread as members seem to have replied so thoughtfully and there is so much to learn here.  I am actually rereading it all sevral times to soak in the great exchanges here.

Not going to comment on stuff already said... .
So just going to add an alternative perspective to the discussion if ok... .
A bit of devils advocate maybe.  Not trying to be rude... .but gonna share my thoughts cause I am more inclined to be at your friends side of the interaction so am gonna pretend I was in a way... .

So maybe that's another thing now, but I don't know what I can do to prevent my friend with feeling annoyed with me ... .I very much like and even love my friend.

I think there appears to be a slight issue with who is responsible for whoms feelings.  You cannot ensure your friend is not annoyed with you, any more than she is also not responsible for your feelings of anger.

Maybe rather than focusing on “not annoying” one another... .  Focus on being as generally kind as possible.  As I believe the first may lead to poor boundaries.

If I were your friend, I actually also would have been short with you, possibly.  If I tell someone no, (especially on a matter that is clearly NOT my responsibility to provide at all) then to get confronted and have my no questioned... .can sometimes feel quite disrespectful.  It can feel like the person is not accepting of my no.  It can be very hard to tell a no to a friend because I risk not being in their favor, and I do not want to rock the boat, so if my friend does not allow my no to stand on it’s own and wants mitigating conversation as if to back up my “no” or prove my “no” it actually can make me feel disrespected, not listened to, not considerate to me, etc. It actually feels a bit like being bullied... .or like they are cornering me into a FOG response where I will need to set MORE boundaries. Why not be kind and compassionate to me and allow my no to stand all on its own?  No IS in fact a complete sentence and I do expect my closer friends to treat it as such.  I expect my No to be heard all on its own.

To then have my friend tell me they are angry, after I asserted a “no” in their direction... .well, quite honestly feels like “too bad, your problem.” I say this because now, you originally wanted me to do you a favor and ask a guy for their number... .i set a boundary, say no... .so now... .you expect me to soothe your hurt? Or are you somewhat being a bully?  Heck no!  I do not now want the additional burden of having to manage your feelings about this.  I do not want to discuss how this made you feel.  It feels like further disrespect and poor boundaries to me... .to not only get my “no” not heard for face value... .but then to be additionally burdened by piling on some anger at me to manage.

So... .  hopefully that did not come off rude... .but maybe offers a different angle.

I do not agree with folks telling folks they do not have the right to feel anger or such... .or what someone “should” feel or such.  All feelings are valid.  We all have a right to our feelings.  Yet, we also ultimately are left to manage them on our own.  If a friend feels capable and willing to help us through them, great... .yet, imo, that is not a mandatory part of the interaction.

I like how heartandwhole puts it

or even set aside while you experience the feelings in your body and do nothing about them, initially.

Sounds to me like your friend did not take well to not getting her No recieved at face value.  In the future... .it would be nice if I felt secure that if i say no to a friend, they can handle this and allow me to say no.  This is kind of pretty darn important to me.  I welcome friends to not do things that make them uncomfortable for the sake of my feelings and I also expect the same back.

[Fie]

Thanks Sunflower, for the contribution !

I always like how you analyse things and I don't think you are rude at all (although I'm happy to read your comment a few days after the event, after everything has sunk in a little :-) ).

You are right, my friend is in no way responsible for me feeling dissapointed that she 'didn't want to help out'. And maybe I am looking at this through my own colored lense : When I say no to people, I want to be kind and explain why I'm saying no, as not to hurt them. But that doesn't mean that others have to do the same. It just means that I sometimes have difficulties saying no.

My friend does tend to get harsh towards people sometimes, not only towards me. She does realize that. Your comment on not focusing on not getting her annoyed, makes a lot of sense here. i do notice that my friend is sometimes not so empathic, and she gets annoyed when I feel sorry for people / when I am showing too much empathy in her opinion. Oftentimes she tells me 'come on, you cannot get things like that get to you, things like that happen to people, that's life. Why do you always care so much'.  At one point when she was again telling me that I was too soft, I answered that I actually didn't want to change, and that maybe I didn't even *want* to be like her. I guess it's like that time when she pointed out that she felt insecure with my sometimes strong opinions. Maybe me being more emphatic than her also makes her feel insecure about herself (although I don't think I ever made a remark about either).
 So I will take your advise into account. She has the right to say no when she doesn't want to do something for me. And I have the right to say no when she wants to change my 'softy' perception on things - and I will try to stop being afraid to annoy her. Not really sure how to, though. I really like her, and I am afraid to loose friendships, so than I go into 'let's avoid that she feels annoyed with me' mode. 

I realize there are really a lot of layers here. Someone made the remark that not everything has to be about us, and that's also true. My friend has become harder over the years, or at least it seems like that. With the boundary testing someone emerged who is more severe, it seems. We used to laugh a lot, we have the same kind of humor. Lately I have noticed she doesn't laugh so easily anymore. When her son is doing something silly that is a bit naughty, and I can't help to laugh, she gets annoyed with me quite easily. Before, she would have laughed along.

Thanks for helping me unpeel !

[Sunfl0wer]

I am guilty!
I have to admit... .
An immediate surge of relief to your words of acceptance and validation here in this moment, LMAO! (Hypocrite that I am  )

This reminds me of a situation at work where I was often given feedback that may have seemed harsh to most.  The person was always genuinely grateful at the fact that I accepted the feedback, and expressed thanks and willingness to be open to it. 

I gathered that she was more used to folks getting defensive and into a conflict of opinions over it.  I could hear her tenseness prior to giving the feedback and I could also notice how relieved she was that I didn’t “fight” back and cause conflict over not accepting it.  (She was often being factual/objective... .so imo, not much room to disagree). These exchanges certainly had potential to be very stressful for us both... .but we actually enjoyed them because of the compassion we felt exchanged between us both for considering the other and understanding that this can be rough on the other one of us... .so the comapssion we shared actually helped bond us during this time... .it was a weird phenomenon to me.

... .
Thank you so much for making it easy for me to feel ok giving what can be “harsh” input!

... .

However, If you didn’t recieve it well... .that would have been ok too of course... .I am just grateful there is value to pull away from it ... .as I am insecure often... .
As I do have a fragmented mind, therefore can present a less “balanced” perspective... .meaning... .my messages are often void of validation type statements... .and can be coming from an overly unemotional state of mind of more logic than sensitive.

[Harri]

Because I want to be this sweet person that everyone likes, who's always calm and balanced and doesn't get angry  smiley smiley

LOL.  Ah, I know that feeling well.  But the thing is, at least for me, when I am presenting this always kind, sweet, patient and oh so cool side, I am not being myself.  I am not being honest about who I am and I set myself up for failure.  I don't want a friend where I can't be myself and one who is going to get mad at me for just being me.  (Obviously there are limits and caveats here but work with me)

Could some of the resentment you are feeling now be related to stifling down those feelings when you get them but now seeing your friend express those very things to you and about you without hesitation?  That is the way it worked for me.  I would get angry and ask myself why they can't accept me the way I accept them.  but the thing is, I wasn't really accepting them, not really.  I did it in the hope they would do the same for me.  So rather than me showing acceptance, it was me having expectations and putting strings on our interactions.  Being accepting of another got all twisted up with my needs and hopes and my own longing to be accepted.

I have no idea if that applies to you, it is just where my thoughts took me.  I'm not proud of that but I am learning to forgive myself and not call myself all sorts of nasty names for it.  It makes me happy you came here knowing this was a safe place to talk about this and to see you take some very excellent insights and tough challenges in this thread with such grace. 

As you know I struggle with healthy relationships (heck with any relationship for that matter) so I do not have a whole lot of advice on this situation.  However, I am standing right beside you in support and accepting you, anger, frustration, resentment and all.  It just makes me see you better and it makes you that much more real and authentic.  That is truly beautiful Fie.

PS.  I wanted to PM you too!  haha.  I was wondering where you had gone to.

[Fie]

Could some of the resentment you are feeling now be related to stifling down those feelings when you get them but now seeing your friend express those very things to you and about you without hesitation?

Yes  

I am standing right beside you in support and accepting you, anger, frustration, resentment and all.

It really is such a relief to find people like you on here. I cannot thank you enough. Really.
 Well and now I am getting teary again. My friend would say, why are you always so emotional !    Heh.


O and Harri. I saw you posted this in another thread.  "I am always interested and looking for encouragement for my own journey."    May I congratulate you on asking help like that ? I smiled when I read that.

[Harri]

 Go FIE! Go FIE!

Thank you.

As for this: 

My friend would say, why are you always so emotional !

The only (in)appropriate response I can think of is 'I'm not always anything, but if I were is it really a surprise to you?  Cuz if it is, you haven't been paying attention!' 

Don't say that.  It tends not to go over so well, even if you smile while saying it.  Live and learn. 

Growing pains.  It's all I can think of as the two of you work out boundaries and take on new roles as you each grow. 

Well and now I am getting teary again.

<passes a tissue>  Of course you are.  We here understand and accept you and will prod you along as needed and serve as a soft landing spot.  It's what we do here.  It is going to be emotional so don't squash it down!  We got ya.   

[YouHadMeAtHello]

@YouHadMeAtHello,

I don't know if you are still following, but in case you are:

I have thought about the situation with your sister and the dead father of her boyfriend. Do you  think it's possible she was scared to go meet all of these new people at once, by herself ? And that she thought, let's ask my sister if she wants to join me, so that I'm not alone ?

You said no, because to you her question was strange, and I understand that. But she heard : 'Yes, indeed, you will be in this church by yourself, and I don't love you enough to come and help you face all of those people'.

Would you say your sister is very social with new people ?

I'm sure that's exactly how my sister interpreted my saying no to the wake and funeral.  The thing is, she didn't seem to care that I wouldn't be comfortable in that situation, either.  And, she has no respect for my saying no, to the point that I felt bullied.  That's very common with her, actually.  If I don't do things the way she would or the way she wants to, she bullies me until she gets her way.  If she can't get her way then she stops talking to me entirely for a period of time (usually until she needs me for something).  In general, she seems to think everyone should do things the way she would and has trouble seeing anyone else's point of view.  I don't know if that's a BPD thing or just her personality.