Projecting the craziness

[Cromwell]

The financial situation was an every week topic. The entitlement, ungratefulness, and demands were limitless. So, whenever there was demand for more money I would calmly state that was the budget for the week, and used the broken record technique. In your case, sooner or later she will take the money. If you break now, the demands will increase. They are so short sighted. Mine kept insisting on going back to work, to earn 300 pesos (about 20.00 USD at the exchange rate at the time) more a week than what I was giving her. In the meantime I was also paying for her schooling. I made it clear that she was free to go back to work, but that meant that financial obligations would change to one of a family with two incomes. Her math skills never caught up with the concept. She eventually did it, and as predicted, she wanted to keep her job money, not contribute to the monthly bills, for me to pay for her school, and still give her spending money. Since this was in addition to all the crazy that comes living with a BPD, that was the end of the line for me. I was a fool to believe it was going to be that easy. The day I told her I was done, she got "abducted." When I refused to pay the 30,000 dollars "ransom," she miraculously appeared the next day. Just shared so you could know that some of us might understand the situation from the point of view south of the border. Most women would tell me how happy they would be to live with a man that not only brought the bacon, but also helped around the house, and treat them lovingly and respectfully. Great contrast to our lovely BPD companions that treat us like yesterday's trash.

wow, just wow. I thought I had heard it all.

if she was anything like my ex, im inclined to believe that she probably was aducted, only released because even they couldnt  have been able to handle her

[GD39]

wow, just wow. I thought I had heard it all.

if she was anything like my ex, im inclined to believe that she probably was aducted, only released because even they couldnt  have been able to handle her

LOL... .I forgot that I thought that at the time! I couldn't believe how any "kidnappers" would be able to handle both of them... .LOL... .I have never seen a seven year old capable of the level of lying, entitlement, self-serving, and manipulation that this one could reach. And this, after working for the last 20 years with children.

OH! By the way, the ex still contacted me for two weeks after the fact trying for me to help her out with money... .I dont have money for the childrens' Xmas gifts, I need money for lunch while I look for another job (she moved out of the house, sold everything in it, and I didnt see a dime... .I didnt care, I was happy to be done), and so on. Since I stood my ground, after two weeks, she HAD to let me know that it was best if we didn't talk to each other. I guess that was the last card on her deck. As soon as I said that it was fine with me, that were the last words we crossed. YIPPPEEEE

[Cromwell]

LOL... .I forgot that I thought that at the time! I couldn't believe how any "kidnappers" would be able to handle both of them... .LOL... .I have never seen a seven year old capable of the level of lying, entitlement, self-serving, and manipulation that this one could reach. And this, after working for the last 20 years with children.

OH! By the way, the ex still contacted me for two weeks after the fact trying for me to help her out with money... .I dont have money for the childrens' Xmas gifts, I need money for lunch while I look for another job (she moved out of the house, sold everything in it, and I didnt see a dime... .I didnt care, I was happy to be done), and so on. Since I stood my ground, after two weeks, she HAD to let me know that it was best if we didn't talk to each other. I guess that was the last card on her deck. As soon as I said that it was fine with me, that were the last words we crossed. YIPPPEEEE

Liberating,isnt it?

i wouldnt say that my ex was greedy for money or materialistic, but it was the act of getting money or whatever she wanted by deceiving rather than to be given it gave her that sad little buzz of excitement.

youll make it back and more. 

[formflier]

Dragon,

Can you put in context how much money is being left out on the kitchen table? 

What is your thinking in leaving it unprotected? 

So... .if she claims that it is "gone" and she didn't spend it... .are YOU solid that YOU will do nothing to replace it or "fix" the situation?

I'm wondering about the wisdom of NOT making the exchange of money a personal interaction. 

As in you put it in her hand... .and she says thank you... .you say you are welcome.  Or... .if she doesn't want to do that... .she can understand the consequences of not being thankful (no money in her purse).

FF

[Dragon72]

ff: I gave her about US$125 on Thursday, I put it in her hand, and told her that it was for her and just for her to spend how she pleased until the next payday on the 15th when I will give her more.  It amounts to about 12.5% of my take home wages after tax.  I said if she wanted to make extra money to make any other purchases, I was open to the idea, but we would have to discuss it first as a couple.

She chose to put it on the dining room table - I have told her to put it somewhere safe, but, since I told her it was hers to do as she pleases, I don't want to touch it. It's her responsability.

As short while ago, I got back from my morning run - a real belter, 6 miles in under 45mins! - and my wife asks me if we are going to spend a few days at the beach.  I think: hotel in high season, gas, freeway tolls, eating out etc., it all adds up and will leave us with barely nothing up til the next payday. So I say, "No, I don't think so. We don't have enough money to spare for that."

So she starts saying to our 4 year old son, whom she encouraged to beg me to take them to the beach, how Daddy's mean and has plenty of money, and how awful it was that they were being kept at home during the vacation time and not allowed to go out.  

She said to our son that he shouldn't ask his classmates about where they went on vacation when he sees them again, as it will only make him jealous. (By the way, his classmates are the offspring of the uber-rich of Mexico. Our son only goes there because he gets a huge scholarship as I am a teacher at the school. So his classmates always spend their weekends somewhere super nice anyway).  And my wife talking to my via our son is a s#1tty thing to do.

It's all part of her strategy to shame and manipulate me into relinquishing the control I have wrestled back off of her.  So, my question is, when she was in control of half of my wages and didn't pay any of the bills and expenses, how come there wasn't "spare money", but now that I have it and want to cooperate on where it goes, suddenly we have more?  :)oesn't make sense.  

Also, I thought she urgently wanted elective laser eye surgery and funds to get her house legally in her hands?  We certainly can't save for those and go to the beach and pay the payments on her fancy new car and fill the fridge and keep the lights and internet connected.

So she left with our son in the car.  "Where you going?", I asked.  
"Out to try and entertain ourselves, since you won't take us to the beach.  Not sure when we'll be back."

She is incapable of understanding the idea of cooperating as equals to manage this money.  She has always refused to cooperate whenever I have tried to involve her in planning.  It's either her 100% in control, which she wants, or me 100% in control, which she hates.

[Dragon72]

Forgot to mention that on the way out of the house with our son this morning, she made a great show of taking 200 pesos (about US$12) from her pile of cash on the table. 

[Dragon72]

... .And I'm not too happy about her taking my son away to unspecified destinations for unspecified periods and without inviting me.  Yes, I took him to the park yesterday and it was just him and me, but I first invited her, then when she said no, I said we'd be back before lunch. And we were.
She, however, I am sure of it, is deliberately not including me, not keeping me informed in order to punish/provoke.  It's terrible the way she's using our son as a weapon.

[formflier]

ff: I gave her about US$125 on Thursday, I put it in her hand, and told her that it was for her and just for her to spend how she pleased until the next payday on the 15th when I will give her more. 

Did she thank you?

Listen... .there is a "big picture" way that I think you are trying to approach her, which is likely counterproductive... .many "nice guys" fall into this pattern.

"I'm going to be a fair as I can be".   Or... ."I'll give her every benefit of the doubt"... .

Do you get that point of view? 

If the purpose is to make sure she is ok in an "emergency"... .I would have to think that $25 should be sufficient.  That also limits your losses and her ability to screw stuff up.

If it really... really... .really is an emergency... .she has family close by.  There are telephones. 

If she wants things... .she can speak to you in a friendly tone of voice... .without threats.

2nd issue.

Stop giving her yes or no answers when she randomly inquires about money.  Don't solve it for her... .hand it back to her... .seem eager (if she would only share her point of view).

Can we go to the hotel? 

"Oh... interesting thought... .sounds fun.  I'll have time to look at your spreadsheet later."

Dude... .I know she will never do a spreadsheet.  So... .for later you can have spreadsheet open and let her know you are ready to put her ideas in there. 

DO NOT engage on other stuff.  Let her know you will come back when she is ready to spreadsheet.  Note... .in the shocking instance that she produces something in writing... .thank her... ask questions... .

Let's DRAMA triangle this.  When she asks these questions she  is offering you the chance to rescue (be a hero for a second) or the persecutor (to say no).  There is an insinuation that she is the victim.

Your goal is to keep handing the work back to her... .yet stay interested in her progress.  Her idea... her work... .

You are doing good stuff... .take lessons learned from each payday... .make changes towards healthy.

FF

[Dragon72]

FF, I am not sure I understand.
Yes she did thank me, by the way but it was said with the same tone of voice a 6 year old uses when they've been told to say sorry to their kid brother.

I think the point of the 125 I gave her is that that money is for her to use as she sees fit, for her.  Hairdo, nails, a new bra, Starbucks, a new case for her phone.  Stuff for her. Just like I would like to be able to make the odd purchase just for me too.

She also has, although she says she's half spent it already, 25 or so for "emergencies" like running out of milk etc.

And your second point I'm not sure I understand.  You're saying when she suggested a trip to the beach I ask to look at her projections for what it might cost?  Let her do the planning?

[formflier]

And your second point I'm not sure I understand.  You're saying when she suggested a trip to the beach I ask to look at her projections for what it might cost?  Let her do the planning?

Yes... .let her produce figures (with math that works) to express her values and provide the solution.

Her idea... her work.

FF

[formflier]

The second point about letting her do the work while you remain "eager" to see her finished product and understand her idea.

It goes beyond money, although money is likely easier to understand.

Man of us hear one or two sentences from a pwBPD and then spend enormous time evaluating and explaining how that idea won't work... .or is a bad idea.

For us to conserve our energy and response, until a fully fledged out idea is presented will carry enormous benefits for all.

The more time you can spend asking probing, value based questions... .so she can explain to you... .vice the other way around... .will reap big benefits.

Let her explain that she believes it ok to skip 2 car payments or some other crazy idea.  Or perhaps she wants the car gone (which would be a blessing... right?)

It's all part of the mindset shift.

FF

[Dragon72]

I'm feeling so tired and stressed and lonely and sad and angry right now.  I feel battle weary and I know that every interaction is a fight. She's redoubling her efforts to paint me black and attack me emotionally now. I'm just not sure how much more of it I can take. I'm a big fit sane 46 year old bloke and I'm close to tears. I can't stand this.

[GD39]

I'm feeling so tired and stressed and lonely and sad and angry right now.  I feel battle weary and I know that every interaction is a fight. She's redoubling her efforts to paint me black and attack me emotionally now. I'm just not sure how much more of it I can take. I'm a big fit sane 46 year old bloke and I'm close to tears. I can't stand this.

If you read around, you will find that MANY of us  have been in that boat. No shame on that. You are not alone brother. Keep on sharing with us that can relate, know, and understand.

[formflier]

I'm feeling so tired and stressed and lonely and sad and angry right now.  I feel battle weary and I know that every interaction is a fight. She's redoubling her efforts to paint me black and attack me emotionally now. I'm just not sure how much more of it I can take. I'm a big fit sane 46 year old bloke and I'm close to tears. I can't stand this.

     

Sorry man... .

I know you feel low at the moment... .this is hard stuff.

Please be encouraged that her acting up is "proof" or "validation" that you are making big changes and she is trying to get you back in line... .or "complaining". 

You have made a big mindset shift to control your resources.  Stay there on mindset... .it is and will pay big dividends.

One of your next mindset shifts will be that even though she wants to fight... every time... .you get to decide if you fight or not.  I get it... .it doesn't "fix" the situation... .but it helps...   Every step in the right direction is a good one.

FF

[Cromwell]

her behaviour is about controlling your son by becoming emotionally incestuous.

He might still be young now, but it is a big red flag that he will end up growing up to become very confused and unhealthily attached to her.

you might end up abandoning her, but she is taking all the steps to ensure at an early stage that she makes sure your son wont.

this has to stop now, can you imagine what she will be like when he gets older and starts wanting to girls. are they going to be seen as threats? will he even subconsciously pick up his mothers vibes that somehow he isnt allowed to even do this?

its going to just get very confusing for him. this isnt healthy at all.

a strong approach now and not let this fly below the radar, this is how borderlines are often created in the first place. you get painted black eventually and he has to take on the role of mothers saviour.

i dont know what the answer is, but all I do know is that this needs figured out and fast.

[GD39]

her behaviour is about controlling your son by becoming emotionally incestuous. DAANNNNGGG... .Never saw it that way with my ex... .but you are right!

He might still be young now, but it is a big red flag that he will end up growing up to become very confused and unhealthily attached to her. No doubt. Saw it. She was ALWAYS after her mom's behind. 

you might end up abandoning her, but she is taking all the steps to ensure at an early stage that she makes sure your son wont.

this has to stop now, can you imagine what she will be like when he gets older and starts wanting to girls. are they going to be seen as threats? will he even subconsciously pick up his mothers vibes that somehow he isnt allowed to even do this?

its going to just get very confusing for him. this isnt healthy at all.

a strong approach now and not let this fly below the radar, this is how borderlines are often created in the first place. you get painted black eventually and he has to take on the role of mothers saviour.

i dont know what the answer is, but all I do know is that this needs figured out and fast.

AGREE with the rest of your post! Even the T we visited stated that their relationship was a pathological one.

[Dragon72]

I am acutely aware of the dsyfunctional nature of our family dynamic and it distresses me constantly to know that it's having a terrible impact on my wonderful innocent son. Poor guy.

This morning my wife announced out of the blue that she was going to go to the city center, a big trek by public transport from where we live, to buy herself some hair products. 
"Great!", I reacted, "I hope you get what you need."

While she was getting ready, I mopped the floors downstairs and washed the breakfast dishes, and played for a bit with our son.  When she came down, she went to the kitchen, picked up a saucepan that she had left on the stove with food in it, called me over, and with a terrifying scowl on her face, said to me in a very angry tone, "Why didn't you clean this up?". 
I was lost for words for a bit, then said, "I don't know, I must have missed it.  Don't talk to me in that tone, please."
No reply.

A minute or two later she left with our son. She hadn't mentioned she would be going with him.  And she seems to have finally taken the cash that she had left all this time on the table.

[formflier]

 
"I'll be able to talk further about this when harsh words aren't between us."

Leave it at that.

The content of her question doesn't get dealt with.

Can you compare the amount of housework that both of you do (broad descriptions)... .not looking for nuance.

FF

[formflier]

I am acutely aware of the dsyfunctional nature of our family dynamic and it distresses me constantly to know that it's having a terrible impact on my wonderful innocent son. Poor guy.
 

Keep in mind that the changes and values that you are expressing with money are going to pay dividends when you start making changes (with professional guidance) with your son.

If she believes she "pushed back" and "got you back in line" with money... .she will try all the harder to put you (and any professionals) back in line with regarding to healthy decisions with your son.

FF

[Dragon72]

How much housework do I do? I'd say weekends and vacation time, about 50-50. Maybe me egding ahead 60-40, since I really like to cook, and ironing gives me a chance to get away from her and relax mentally.
Weekdays, she does it all, except I'll wash the plates and the pans after the evening meal and I do most of the childcare for the supper/bedtime routine.

Last night from "her" bed she sent me a meme video all about what "comes from fear and what comes from love".
"From fear: judgment, control, gossip
From love: acceptance, flow, sharing and enjoyment.
From fear: thinking, analyzing and comparing.
From fear: live in the now, embrace and accept.
From fear: criticizing, being dogmatic, bearing grudges.
From love: empathy, helping and letting go."

It went on.

I think she's trying to tell me that I'm doing all the bad "fear"y things, all the while not realizing that it's all applicable to her too.

Incidentally, I just got into a BPD exchange of words with my mother (who I think is a "sufferer" too).
I replied to a whatsapp message that my brother sent to the whole family with a smily face.
My mother then sent me a private message "So you reply to his messages and not to mine?"
I replied, "Stop trying to guilt trip me. If I didn't reply to your message at the time, it's because I probably had my hands full and didn't remember later. It's nothing personal."
She replied "I sent you those recipes in my message out of love and I saw you were posting on FB later, so you can't have been that busy. I only do things for you with warmth and love."
I chose not to reply. 

They say you pick your spouse by how much they resemble your most problematic parent. Voila.

[Cromwell]

. reminds me of my own experience, if I had ever done wrong (looking back, this must have been a daily occurrence), i would never get confronted with what the problem is. like you got sent that meme video that you have to decrypt yourself, I got lots of that style of 3rd party produced stuff forwarded to me like a communist state brainwashing department sending out propaganda.

I suspect it is another cowardly way of being able to tell you what she expects you to hear but not take direct ownership over it. then the gaslighting can begin when you reply with a heightened emotional response to it - where she can then act sqeaky clean innocent of any bad intent,

in fact claim what she did was actually out of love and kindness as the 3rd party message is wide open to interpretation, and whats wrong with you, your going crazy or something?

[Dragon72]

You said exactly how it is, Cromwell.
It's mindgames and an attempt to play the victim and saviour simultaneously.
I just ignored it.  There would have been no correct response.

[formflier]

I replied, "Stop trying to guilt trip me. If I didn't reply to your message at the time, it's because I probably had my hands full and didn't remember later. It's nothing personal."
 

What would have been a healthier response? 

You likely respond to your wife and mother in many of the same ways... .unfortunately... .without a lot of serious introspection and likely sustained therapy... .it will take a while to change.

Step 1 is to "see" it.

step 2  understand at a base level why that response is "not so good" and why something else is healthier

Step 3... .consistently apply it


Note... I'm sure you were "right"... .serious.  But... .is "right" what matters?

FF

[Dragon72]

Hey, I'm human. If someone tries to manipulate me emotionally, I don't like it.

Honestly I don't know what the "healthy" response would have been.
"Hey mom, I'm glad you picked a fight with me out of the blue. I love the way you make me feel guilty. Keep it up. Now I really want to talk with you more often."

[formflier]

My mother then sent me a private message "So you reply to his messages and not to mine?"
I replied, "Stop trying to guilt trip me. If I didn't reply to your message at the time, it's because I probably had my hands full and didn't remember later. It's nothing personal."
She replied "I sent you those recipes in my message out of love and I saw you were posting on FB later, so you can't have been that busy. I only do things for you with warmth and love."
I chose not to reply. 
 

"Ohh goodness Mom... .since I peeked at our history and saw I have actually replied... .I can't imagine what you are suggesting.  Can you clarify?"

Lots of ways you can invite her to clarify herself.

What it seems to me is...

Your Mom had an emotional thing going on... .she invited you to show what kind of judgmental a$$ you were... .and your fulfilled your role as a "persecutor" and allowed her to victimize herself quite nicely.

Any idea who "rescued" her?

Very frustrating stuff... . 

FF

[Turkish]

This topic has been locked due to reaching its post limit.  The discussion is Continued here: Projecting the craziness (Continued)