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First post, hoping for some new perspective
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Topic: First post, hoping for some new perspective (Read 695 times)
Seb201
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
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First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
on:
April 25, 2018, 07:20:53 AM »
I have been doing a lot of reading on this site, I am hoping to share my story and get some advice.
I have been with my SO for 7 years, he has two kids 11 yr(twins) with an ex who has BPD. We have one kid with one on the way. I can’t even begin to list all the day to day battles that have gone on so I will try to summarize. As these things usually go, when I came in the picture SO had a lot of guilt and poor boundaries with his ex. I encouraged him from the beginning to get a court order spelling out custody, and to follow it and document when the children were withheld.
We have had the order for 4 years and it was never followed since the beginning. He also never documented much of anything because he didn’t want to involve the police. She always said he needed to let the kids choose and they did not want to come spend time over here. I know this is not true bc when they are here we have a blast. We have everything a kid could want over here and always made a point to plan fun things to go do as a family. The kids relationship with their dad is awesome and he is a very caring dad. I have always gotten along great with them. Our issue is that they never want to open up about what is going on at the other house. They say they want to be here and then when it comes to getting them there is always something that is coming up.
The ex lives with her mom(the grandmother) and on multiple occasions grandmother has told us that she is worried for the kids, that the ex is on drugs, sleeps all day and that the kids are scared of her. We ended up calling cps d/t these allegations but nothing came of it. Not sure if the grandmother ended up covering for her or maybe since she lived with grandmother they felt kids weren’t in immediate danger?
Only last summer did he call the cops and at that point she had the kids saying they didn’t want to come here when the cops got there. She is saying the kids don’t want to spend more than one night here, that SS is scared to stay without SD. It is a mess. We alternate between seeing the kids and trying to enforce an order which has never really been enforced, so it never works, and just giving up and not seeing the kids. The current thing is she wants to take the kids out of state to her hometown in which she had a major drug problem when she was last there. She is offering all summers which I have no faith would happen. We can’t even see them when we are 10 min away. The kids told us they don’t want to go but who knows. We have told them that we are there for them when they want to start coming back over on the scheduled days and I want to give them a calendar with all the days they should be at this house so they can see. I had to back out of communicating with them. Through this whole process I have tried to find a solution to the problem. I am mad he didn’t enforce the order from the beginning and document. I am mad at the kids for not having a better relationship with their dad and lying, spying, and stealing from us. I am also mad at them for my 3 yr old who is constantly getting told that they are coming over and then they never show. I also think about them daily and try to think of new things I can do to get through to them. I love them but I am so hurt by all this. Should we let them be while SO continues to reach out to them through text waiting for the day that they realize what’s been going on? What are the best options here. We don’t have more money to go through court battles. She gets a free lawyer while we pay.
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Panda39
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #1 on:
April 25, 2018, 11:45:56 AM »
Hi Seb201
Welcome
Just because your husband hasn't been enforcing and documenting doesn't mean he can't start now. Communicate with the ex only via email, keep a journal, put missed dates on a calendar and document what is going on. He should attempt all of his visits and document when the ex refuses visitation.
How are the kids doing in school? Is there absenteeism?
Has your husband talked with his attorney at all about the situation to find out what some of his options are? Unfortunately you may need to take this back to court.
What is the current custody agreement?
Excerpt
I am mad at the kids for not having a better relationship with their dad and lying, spying, and stealing from us.
Sounds like you might have some Parental Alienation going on too. Are the kids in Therapy at all?
Panda39
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"Have you ever looked fear in the face and just said, I just don't care" -Pink
Speck
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #2 on:
April 25, 2018, 11:48:10 AM »
Welcome, Seb201!
I just wanted to take a moment to welcome you to the forums. I'm so sorry for what you're going through but glad you have found a community where many of us have been through similar experiences, and we can learn from each other. I wish for you as much help and support as I have received.
Thank you for what you have shared with us thus far:
Quote from: Seb201 on April 25, 2018, 07:20:53 AM
Should we let them be while SO continues to reach out to them through text waiting for the day that they realize what’s been going on?
This is quite a difficult situation. I think your impulse here to just let them be may be the best course of action, as your SO has never followed the custody order from the beginning, nor has he ever documented much of anything (because he didn’t want to involve the police). To do so now, all of a sudden, may be interpreted by his BPDex as "strong-arming" her and may lead to her taking the kids out of state to her hometown. At least now, there is greater potential to see the twins.
However, I do agree with
Panda39
:
Just because your husband hasn't been enforcing and documenting doesn't mean he can't start now.
I'm sorry you're having a tough time, but we're so glad you're here. Keep reading and posting, and I'm sure you'll get help and support you need (as I have).
Keep writing, keep processing, keep learning!
-Speck
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Turkish
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #3 on:
April 25, 2018, 12:35:45 PM »
She can't take the kids out of state without dad's permission. Based upon the history, I'd say No. What are his thoughts?
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Seb201
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #4 on:
April 25, 2018, 12:41:05 PM »
So the custody schedule was basically mon, tues and every other sat. There is no doubt in my mind that PA is going on. The things she says are so off the wall. My thing is what’s the point of going back to court when the kids can just tell the cops that they don’t want to come. On a day that was not ours he was FaceTiming his kids while she was sleeping and they were doing nothing saying they wanted to come over. As soon as they asked her it was a huge issue about her saying he pressured them to come over and tricked them and that they really don’t want to be here. I know they want to come, it just seems like they do whatever she wants blindly without realizing that a relationship with their dad is important. Can we really force them to come over at this point while she’s the one tugging the strings behind the scenes. As far as therapy we will have to take her back to court for that one bc she refuses it, and the therapist we were talking to wouldn’t take them without a signed consent from her. He was aware of her situation and thought that she would make a big deal about it. If they have joint legal does he have to get her consent? Unbeknownst to him his kids were in family therapy over there d/t fighting within the house and one of her other kids trying to commit suicide. Another issue if he does not need her consent is actually getting the kids there. We thought about just taking her to court for therapy saying he would drive them to their appts and then take them home but what good is therapy going to do when you go back home to her pressuring you about what did you say? What happened at therapy? I should also mention that her 14 y/o daughter hat was having problems decided to move in with her dad out of state so we are hoping it’s only a matter of time his kids start to question things too.
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Seb201
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #5 on:
April 25, 2018, 12:43:21 PM »
Turkish- he wants to say no too bc he feels like they would be in danger. But a plus would be getting them for a whole summer instead of one day and back to moms. We could have a chance to actually effect them in some way.
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DreamGirl
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #6 on:
April 25, 2018, 01:03:17 PM »
Why does she want to move? New employment?
We fought diligently every step of the way when she tried to move. Only because she loved to move. If it weren't for my husband, they probably would have attended 12 different schools.
Quote from: Seb201 on April 25, 2018, 12:43:21 PM
Turkish- he wants to say no too bc he feels like they would be in danger. But a plus would be getting them for a whole summer instead of one day and back to moms. We could have a chance to actually effect them in some way.
And so past behavior predicts future behavior. Why would a new state magically make them want to come to your house?
And kids actually don't always want to leave to visit the non custodial parent in the summers once they're older ---- especially when they get jobs. It might get reduced to a couple of weeks at some point.
And I'm with everyone else, enforcing the court order can start right now. Today.
I'm all about finding solutions to problems - real ones and perceived ones. I don't argue with her when she tries to say the kids are afraid. Maybe they are. Lets figure out how to make them not afraid anymore.
Dear SK's Mama,
I know the kiddos want to stay with their mom. You've been their primary caretaker their whole lives and kids just want their mom sometimes.
I also understand that they may be afraid to come to my house. I'd like to work on that, maybe with a professional counselor who can help strengthen our relationship. The kids pedatrician recommended a therapist, Dr. XYZ, and I'm making an appointment on 5/4/18 to talk to him. You're welcome to come along. I also am looking to include the kids on 5/15/18 on my scheduled day.
The truth is that kids need their dad too. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make their time with me less stressful for everyone and to where you don't have to worry about them while they are here.
Seb201's DH
If you haven't been exercising your over night parenting time, I'd start with dinners. I'd pick them up on Mondays and Tuesdays and drop them off.
You need to probably intervene in order to get this pointed in a direction where you're spending time with the kiddos.
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Seb201
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #7 on:
April 25, 2018, 10:31:02 PM »
Everyone brings up good points. Dream Girl- she doesn’t want to move for employment. She doesn’t work but feels that government housing is better in the other state. It’s not that being out of state would make the kids want to come over more than they already do. We believe it is her that is pressuring them not to come over. He actually has already said no to moving, which then she said he would see them more if he just let her leave and that she will make sure she doesn’t work with him until he lets her. It’s funny how you put the message to therapy bc we worded things in the same fashion... .that he wanted to work on his relationship with them and if they were scared to come over it was best to do therapy. She ended up back tracking and saying it wasn’t that bad and they aren’t all that scared.
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ForeverDad
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #8 on:
April 25, 2018, 11:05:19 PM »
The "let me move the kids out of state and you'll get summers" offer is unlikely to happen since you already know she won't willingly follow an order. I think it would get worse. Is all she offering is just summers? I bet she's not even offering him the long holidays (Thanksgiving, Winter Break and Spring Break) that distant parents usually get.
I would caution you about her claim to allow you the entire summer. She may still get vacations and choose to use her vacation time during the summer. Imagine her selecting one week in the middle of June, one week in the middle of July and one week in the middle of August. If you would be responsible for travel arrangements, expect to pay for a lot of flights or a lot of driving. Also, there are 3 major holidays spaced out during the summer (Memorial Day, Independence Day and Labor Day) so would those still be alternated between the parents?
If mother does not have a valid reason to support a move, such as having a job skill that requires a move or something like that, then take it to court. Hmm... .On the other hand maybe you should be okay with her move, with one condition... .":)ear Ex, I have no objection to you moving out of state. However, I do object to the children moving out of state. If you desire to move away, I wish you the best but I will petition the court to become the primary parent so that the children continue to live in this area."
What about vacations? My county specifies a default that parents get up to 3 weeks vacation each year with a maximum of two weeks at a time. If times overlap then the first parent to send notice (notice, not a "request" gets the requested dates. What does your local court allow or what is in the order? Has he been getting his vacation time every year?
A major boundary is that visits are not up to the kids or even the other parent. "Kid doesn't want to go" or "kid is sick so I am cancelling your visit" are not valid reasons though if visits are currently working then alternate times could be substituted
if the change is agreed to by both in writing so that you have documentation if the change fails
. First, kids don't decide whether to follow the exchange, this is a court order. Second, if a child is sick, that does not cancel a visit, it's not like only one parent can care for a sick child.
If she does not support the exchanges then it is simple. Every time there is a failed exchange (often the courts allow a time window, mine is 30 minutes) then get a police report. Wait at the specified exchange location, call the police, the responding officer may try to contact her to cajole her to comply, if that fails then ask the officer to make a report and ask how to obtain a copy once it is logged or filed. Police reports are so much more credible than what we may report on our own. Get a few incidents and that will be solid basis to start a Contempt of Court case.
Yes, she will complain that it wasn't 'enforced' much in the past. All dad has to explain to the police or court is that in the past he was trying to be accommodating but he has since realized his
appeasing
her has turned out to be
enabling
her to obstruct his parenting. Usually the police will try to get one parent to comply or the other to let it go since all they want to do is resolve the current incident. If that fails then, as mine did, they file a report of the incident and tell the parents to fix it in court.
How are you documenting her statements? Usually this important negotiation (or ultimatum) interchange should be documented such as in letters, emails or texts in case it would support you later in court.
One last thought, generally we would recommend that the kids aren't split apart for visits. Sometimes school activities or whatever make it hard for them to always visit together for the entire visit but frankly stick to the order, they come together and stay together with exceptions to be valid and limited.
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...
Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #9 on:
April 25, 2018, 11:29:24 PM »
DreamGirl made a good point, it's okay to find a gently, non-threatening way to approach therapy or other matters too. While there may be no way to avoid triggering her overreactions, the course of wisdom is not to seek trouble, sometimes honey does work better than vinegar.
However, I would be cautious about stating the children are afraid to visit, she may claim that but you don't want to give any validation of her claim. "I am concerned that you report the children are afraid to come to my house, yet I do not get that impression from them when they visit. Perhaps there is something stressful about the exchanges or some other issue. I've looked into this and found out that the court is very supportive of counseling for children, a neutral trained professional can be so helpful and insightful... ."
If she refuses counseling for the children then you can seek authorization from the court. As my lawyer told me, courts love counseling! Be aware that not all counselor or therapists have the training or ability to deal with a manipulative or controlling parent. The last thing you want is for the kids to get stuck with a less perceptive or even gullible counselor that the Ex can wrap around her little finger.
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livednlearned
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #10 on:
April 26, 2018, 07:54:59 AM »
Quote from: Seb201 on April 25, 2018, 12:41:05 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that PA is going on.
PA tends to breed in an environment where there are soft boundaries because the kids end up trying, often with zero skills, to handle what the adults can't or won't. They teach themselves that neither parent can be trusted.
Would your H consider seeing a therapist who can help him work through what might amount to conflict avoidance? This is often the root of soft boundaries, and can go deep, all the way back to childhood.
My SO and I went to therapy together with our couples counselor and a child psychologist, who together helped explain the psychological impact of weak boundaries on then D20's well-being.
It gave us some shared language and took me out of the equation, in a way, because the focus shifted off my perceived resentment of D20 and instead became an issue of healthy parenting and long-term well-being for his most fragile child.
It also reinforced how best to communicate with alienated kids. These skills are not intuitive and must be learned.
The kids are probably starved for emotional validation.
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kells76
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #11 on:
April 30, 2018, 01:11:26 PM »
Hey Seb201, and welcome... .
Excerpt
We have had the order for 4 years and it was never followed since the beginning. He also never documented much of anything because he didn’t want to involve the police. She always said he needed to let the kids choose and they did not want to come spend time over here. I know this is not true bc when they are here we have a blast. We have everything a kid could want over here and always made a point to plan fun things to go do as a family. The kids relationship with their dad is awesome and he is a very caring dad. I have always gotten along great with them. Our issue is that they never want to open up about what is going on at the other house. They say they want to be here and then when it comes to getting them there is always something that is coming up.
Wow -- your story really brings me back to where my husband (DH) and I were at a few years ago. He and the girls' mom had signed off on the most basic PP you can imagine (":)H can be with the kids when he's not at work". DH naively imagined that even though he and Mom couldn't be married, that they could still effectively coparent. I know you know how that goes.
It sounds like you're at the point where the huge ship has been sailing in one direction for a while. It's going to be hard to start to turn it, maybe even painful. But that iceberg is looming larger and larger, and it's now or never.
Like LnL suggested, getting resources for you and your spouse in the form of counseling can really help you have the strength to make it through turning this ship. DH and I have a really excellent counselor who we also were able to get to talk with the girls' counselor. Our situation was a little peculiar in that our counselor had also seen Mom and Stepdad (though not as a couple) and knew all about their BS. He was able to describe and discuss the behaviors and dynamics of Mom's house/parenting with the kids' counselor in a way that was really helpful and validating.
The learning curve for starting to built the ship-turning skills might be steep. Expect to encounter lots of resistance from Mom along the way. Once DH started to actually try to FOLLOW the PP (hey, I'm not at work, I want to see the kids), there was massive resistance. The girls' mom told us that if we got a lawyer it'd be "the nuclear option". She opposed counseling for the kids, pulled them out of the school where DH was going to teach... .it was really ugly.
One of the more helpful strategies (with tactics) that I learned during that time is something that a child psychologist named Dr Craig Childress terms "jiu-jitsu parenting".
As LnL also said,
Excerpt
These skills are not intuitive and must be learned.
Yup. It's a lot of not justifying, arguing, defending yourself, or explaining, and a lot of listening, opening yourselves to criticism, and some very smart moves to help the kids gently see how the PA perspective they're coming from doesn't make any sense.
Here's the link:
www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=63&TID=6&FN=pdf
Let us know how else we can help. It's really, really tough at this stage, but trust me, it is possible for things to get a LOT better.
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david
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #12 on:
April 30, 2018, 04:06:26 PM »
I went to pick one of our boys up last year. Ex was in a bad mood from the emails I had received prior. Our order says I am to call and hang up when the voicemail turns on. The boys should be out in 5 minutes. Five minutes rarely happens and I let that go. Around 15 minutes went by and no sign of our son. I called again with the same results. I called 911 and told them what was happening. They said to stay in my car and a police officer would arrive shortly. The officer said there was nothing he could do and that I needed to call my attorney. Another police car pulled up. I asked for a wellness check because I was concerned for everyone's safety. That forced the police to do something so one of them started walking towards exes residence. As soon as a foot touched the driveway the front door magically opened and out came our son. He got in the car and we drove away. He asked why the police were there and I simply told him how I called etc and I became concerned. He listened and then said , "I guess that I why mom kept looking out the window."
Boundaries are the only thing that has worked for me. I have to stay focused and levelheaded and follow the order. When she plays her games I get the authorities involved. It took several times but eventually my ex realized her actions had consequences. That was the last incident (crossing my fingers) in quite some time.
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Seb201
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #13 on:
May 08, 2018, 06:58:43 AM »
Thanks everyone! It looks like the only way to handle this is to document everything and go back to court. She says she has no way to communicate through email which is a lie. I’m thinking police reports and text messages for documentation, I also want them to be in counseling and ask for our family wizard for communication. Previously they were court ordered to only communicate through a notebook that was to go back and forth with the children but that didn’t last very long.
Isn’t there an app he can use to download and print text messages from his phone? Is there a way we can do this contempt of court without a lawyer?
Every time we try to better this situation I get more frustrated and resentful when we end right back up in the same place. We have never taken her to court for contempt so maybe that might do something. It’s so hard bc the kids are still young, but they are almost teenagers, and at some point I feel like they should be helping us out and actually trying to come over here.
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Nope
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #14 on:
May 08, 2018, 09:07:22 PM »
It does take awhile for things to get better. My DH was in the process of taking his ex to court for contempt the first time when we got together. He lost in court, won the appeal, and she got her slap on the wrist. She stopped violating that one part of the court order for all of about a month before she was right back to blocking his access again. But the contempt finding was mentioned later on in our favor during the custody hearing.
Does she have a smartphone? If so it is highly unlikely she can't access any email. Find out what the laws are about recording conversations in your state. In many areas of my one party to a conversation needs to be aware that they are being recorded. It came in pretty handy for my DH to have recordings because his ex wouldn't give him an email address either. Now it's in the order that communication must be primarily through email.
I completely understand your frustration and resentment. The situation with the kids and their mom directly impacts your life and yet you have no control over any of it. I first came here to get some measure of support from people who understood. Then I came here to learn the tools that DH and I would need to fight back, and then also to create a situation we could at least live with. (Change what you can, accept what can't be changed, etc.)
The near-teens aren't going to involve themselves in the conflict between their parents. Especially when it's pretty clear to them which parent has the power in the situation. They don't want to make their mom mad because it's likely she gets pretty scary to them when she's mad. Living with her is probably hard enough without triggering her rage by asking to spend more time with their dad. If they sense any pressure from you or your DH that they should be sticking up for dad then they might just end up feeling put in the middle and see that as a valid reason for not wanting to be at dad's house.
At this point, in my own situation, it's the opposite. Kid's now live with us full time and their uBPDm pressures them to tell DH they want to spend more time with her. She puts them under extreme pressure and guilt about it and then, convinced that her pressure and guilt have worked, she writes emails to DH saying she knows the kids want to see her more and he needs to "listen to what the kids want" and not keep her to shorter visits "for spite". Meanwhile the kids don't like being made to feel guilty and they don't like her interrogating them and it's actually turned into the main reason they want less time with her.
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livednlearned
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Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #15 on:
May 09, 2018, 06:21:41 AM »
Here are some resources for saving text messages from a phone (assuming it's a smart phone):
https://deciphertools.com/blog/documenting-text-messages-for-legal-evidence-or-court/
Make it as easy as possible for a judge to gut check what he or she sees. In other words, any software that shows time stamps or chronological order makes it easier at a glance.
Be really sure that your H's texts reflect someone who is not escalating the situation, which is not necessarily an intuitive way of responding.
In other words, if she texts "why don't you go to h#ll and eat sh*t"
it's better to not respond at all.
Let the judge see that.
A better response when things seem to get inflamed might be, "Please stop so we can focus on what is best for the kids."
Also, when you do go back to court for contempt, think about reasonable solutions. Show the court you have an idea about what might make the situation easier for everyone.
Court's objective is to not see you again.
They don't see mental illness, they see two quarreling parents.
You want to show them that it's just one quarreling parent. The other parent is a problem solver who also wants to stay out of court.
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Breathe.
Panda39
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Gender:
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Relationship status: SO and I have been together 9 years and have just moved in together this summer.
Posts: 3462
Re: First post, hoping for some new perspective
«
Reply #16 on:
May 09, 2018, 07:08:03 AM »
Quote from: Nope on May 08, 2018, 09:07:22 PM
At this point, in my own situation, it's the opposite. Kid's now live with us full time and their uBPDm pressures them to tell DH they want to spend more time with her. She puts them under extreme pressure and guilt about it and then, convinced that her pressure and guilt have worked, she writes emails to DH saying she knows the kids want to see her more and he needs to "listen to what the kids want" and not keep her to shorter visits "for spite". Meanwhile the kids don't like being made to feel guilty and they don't like her interrogating them and it's actually turned into the main reason they want less time with her.
We experienced this type of thing all the time. We would either invoke the custody agreement/divorce decree (the court says we do xyz), my SO would tell his kids to have mom call him (take the responsibility of their mother's pressure off of them) or remind is uBPDxw that the kids were kids and they were the parents and the decisions about what was best for them was made by them (the parents).
My SO also experienced Parental Alienation where his kids refused to see him due to their mother's pressure, but he never stopped calling and showing up for his visitation... .never gave up his rights as their dad.
It goes back to boundaries and her attempt to avoid them. It was my SO's job to block her attempts to flank the boundaries and push her back to following them... .no fun and exhausting but what was best for the kids.
LnL has given good advice regarding text messages, I just want to add keep your (you and your husband) anger under wraps (even though you have every reason to be angry). Always take the high road you never know what will show up in court.
Panda39
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