Talking in circles: hyper verbosity

[Chynna]

Is this a common BPD feature? Is there even a TERM for it?

It's where every conversation seems to go absolutely nowhere - you're talking to a person who keeps shifting the conversation around and changing the rules of the conversation, and seems completely stuck in their head and they may as well not even be conversing with anyone else.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=188020.0

Hi everyone  , I hope each of you is beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I know some of the stuff we've had to endure is not at all pleasant or in any way funny but I've just been reading an old post about circular conversations ("Talking in circles:hyper-verbosity" circa 11/12/14?) I have to admit to laughing out loud because all the twists and turns while trying to have a genuinely normal conversation with our pwBPD make it all just so impossible! And I would just like to add that N/C is such an awesome present we can give ourselves. Levity is also a good thing... .To inner peace and healing, Chynna

[Cromwell]

Eventually I just tuned out and wasnt listening anymore, she could literally go on for hours, somehow I had tuned in to the "are you listening to me?" which might come every 20minutes, and id just say "yes", and then it would continue, ad nauseum and yes for hours once she got into that zone. I wonder looking back if these circular mostly monologues (i was allowed to contribute, by just saying "yes" to everything statement she made), if it was more just a control tool, to force someone to give you that much attention, or if it is somehow part of a condition. Either way, its given me some bad memories having to remind myself of that craziness.

[Chynna]

I'm sorry, Cromwell... .did not mean to bring up anything bad. It's just parts of that thread struck me so funny that I had some belly laughs and thought others could identify in a lighthearted way. Hope you're doing well... .;0)

[once removed]

i found this to be great reading on the subject: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

its been a long time, but i can still recall the circular arguments pretty vividly. we could go for hours, literally four to eight.

what hit me over the head like a two by four was when i heard "a circular argument requires two parties".

at the time, i would blame my ex for these circular arguments. i started refusing to answer her questions or discuss certain things, although at least half the time i would fall into it. even when i would take a time out, inevitably shed say something that triggered, and id have to make my point or get a shot in. and on and on we went.

none of it was healthy engagement. it was pretty far from good conflict resolution.

i would later realize that its not as if she was the first person this ever happened to me with. i was actually pretty prone to it. there was a need to make my point and be heard, and/or have the other person agree with me. and at some point it dawned on me, that one of my triggers is feeling misunderstood or misread. that drove me to stating my piece repeatedly, or more loudly, or trying to find the words in order to be heard. the ten beliefs that can keep us stuck speak to this. a lot of the tools do: learning not to JADE, listening with empathy, the three minute video on ending conflict. there are others.

bottom line to me, i state my piece once, maybe twice if need be. anything more is redundant and circular.

[once removed]

anyone find any of these that apply?

Why do they happen?

Cause our partners are mentally ill and have difficulty expressing themselves in clear enough fashion for us to understand.

Cause our partners are mentally ill and feelings = facts to them.

Cause our partners are mentally ill and they need to control what they can - us.

Cause our partners are mentally ill and can't stand to lose.

Cause we like to "be right" too.

Cause we can't let it go either.

Cause we need to prove our point.

Cause we are too afraid to walk away from the argument.

Cause we want to hurt them back.

Cause we feel trapped - either literally or emotionally.

Cause we hope that we can change their minds.

Cause we hope that we can get them to understand.

Cause we are co-dependent and need to "fix" them and their flawed way of thinking.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

once removed... .Yep! I think all of those apply.

Cause our partners are mentally ill and have difficulty expressing themselves in clear enough fashion for us to understand.

It feels like we speak different languages with no common frame of reference.

Cause our partners are mentally ill and feelings = facts to them.

It took me a while to grasp this but it makes perfect sense!

Cause our partners are mentally ill and they need to control what they can - us.

This is spades! Add in NPD and his need to control is horrendous!

Cause our partners are mentally ill and can't stand to lose.

Most definitely. He even uses words like "losing" and "winning" quite often. It seems he has to be right all the time. I think he has a lot of internal shame and insecurity.

Cause we like to "be right" too.

I think most people do but quite a few of us can admit when we're wrong. I don't know if BPDs can do that.

Cause we can't let it go either.

Yeah this one is a hard one to do. Letting go isn't easy.

Cause we need to prove our point.

I think this may have to do with a need for external validation. Something I'm still working on.

Cause we are too afraid to walk away from the argument.

Sometimes. I used to feel that if I couldn't prove my point, then I felt invalidated. That I must be wrong and he must be right. It took me a while to see this isn't true. It's not black and white like that. We can both be right and both be wrong. Sometimes it is a matter of opinion and feelings do not equal facts.

Cause we want to hurt them back.

Oh you have no idea!  Yes, this is true. I think it's a normal feeling to want to lash back at someone who is hurting us. In my case, it never did any good. He would gravely insult me but if I said the exact same thing back to him then I was being "mean".

Cause we feel trapped - either literally or emotionally.

Yes, I felt I was trapped in a prison being married to him. I ended up fearing him and if he would become violent when I worked up the courage to tell him I wanted to divorce him. My anxiety was through the roof for months.

Cause we hope that we can change their minds.

I think this is normal too. We hope that we can make a difference and get them to see our point of view. I'm not sure they can, though. I still struggle with this.

Cause we are co-dependent and need to "fix" them and their flawed way of thinking.

Yep. If only I could get him to see my point of view! I don't think this will ever happen.

Can we add lack of good boundaries to the list unless it's implied somewhere above? Sometimes we want to stop the argument but aren't able to or they refuse to respect our boundaries when we say "stop" or "can we talk about this later".

[MeandThee29]

That's interesting.

We also could go for hours and hours with no resolution. When he was recently here I had the same "I hold my wife in contempt" lecture over-and-over while we were working on the house. I only put up with it because the work had to get done, and I'm financially dependent on him.

It baffles me because I've had conflicts with coworkers, friends, other family members, etc., and it wasn't at all like this. Most involved a discussion that led to some closure. I have a relative who is drastically different than me politically and theologically, but we handle it because we love each other. Sometimes we spar a bit, but we always agree to let it be in the end.

He still has thoughts of reconciliation, but just the circular arguments make that iffy. Even apart from BPD, how can you resolve anything in a marriage if one partner is always right and you can't deal with things? He won't go for counselling and has thoughts that we can do this as a do-it-yourself project. Not in a million years.