I have custody but my kids still behave like Ex after a YEAR

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Even after a year that I have had custody and majority parenting time and my kids think and act just like my BPD-ex. I have them 2/3 of the time and she has them 1/3. They hit me repeatedly, throw my stuff and any household items they can get ahold of to the floor, find fault in everyone, panic about things and think people are against them, hate everything I do and find fault in everything I do, and bring up things from years ago and still blamed me for it!  The twins are 10 and yet it's EXACTLY like I'm living with my ex but their is two of them. They see a child therapist every two weeks but those seem to pointless. Kids walk out of the therapist office yelling at me!  I've already spent years dealing with my ex before we divorced in an extremely abusive environment and now my kids?

One thing I have always felt in my gut was the therapist should have pointed the finger at my ex and told them her behavior was terrible and the things she exposed them to was terrible. And that's why you are with Dad most of the time.  Nobody wants to hurt mom or say a single negative thing about her.

[justaboutdone]

Even after a year that I have had custody and majority parenting time and my kids think and act just like my BPD-ex. I have them 2/3 of the time and she has them 1/3. They hit me repeatedly, throw my stuff and any household items they can get ahold of to the floor, find fault in everyone, panic about things and think people are against them, hate everything I do and find fault in everything I do, and bring up things from years ago and still blamed me for it!  The twins are 10 and yet it's EXACTLY like I'm living with my ex but their is two of them. They see a child therapist every two weeks but those seem to pointless. Kids walk out of the therapist office yelling at me!  I've already spent years dealing with my ex before we divorced in an extremely abusive environment and now my kids?

One thing I have always felt in my gut was the therapist should have pointed the finger at my ex and told them her behavior was terrible and the things she exposed them to was terrible. And that's why you are with Dad most of the time.  Nobody wants to hurt mom or say a single negative thing about her.

[Panda39]

Hang in there, my SO saw some of this acting out too.

How are you reacting to your kids behaviors?  Have you tried talking to the kids teachers/school counselor?  Do you have a Therapist for yourself?  It really helped my SO to see a Therapist for a while and get some coaching regarding the parenting of his daughters.

It may take your kids some time to make changes in their behaviors.  It's likely that structure and consistency aren't happening at moms.  I know it's exhausting but keep at it with your kids they really want boundaries (even if it doesn't always look like it  )

Don't forget to take care of you too!

Panda39

[justaboutdone]

Hang in there, my SO saw some of this acting out too.

How are you reacting to your kids behaviors?  Have you tried talking to the kids teachers/school counselor?  Do you have a Therapist for yourself?  It really helped my SO to see a Therapist for a while and get some coaching regarding the parenting of his daughters.

Panda39

I'll give you an example from this evening and am curious how you or others would respond.

Tonight, my S10 and D10 started playing around at the diner table.  D10 dumped almost a whole thing of parmesan cheese on his plate.  He started playing with it and making a ball with it and not eating his dinner.  I told him to go wash his hands.  He started licking his hands and not actually washing them.  He finally washed them and came back to eat.  But he again made a ball and I am now upset with him.  Not yelling but telling him to wash his hands and to sit back down and finish dinner.  He went to the sink and licked his hands again and then finally washing them at my insistence.  He said he didn’t want anything else to eat and I sent him to his room for the behavior.  He was also acting very silly and wanted him to calm down without the distraction of his sister.  I also sent him to his room not because he did it the first time but because I told him not to play with the cheese with his hands at dinner and he did it again!  He tells me later that he's still starving but I remind him that he played around at dinner and didn't eat.
 
He’s now furious and started slamming his bedroom door until he put a hole in the wall with the handle.  I come into his room and tell him he lost iPad privileges for 24 hours while bringing him his homework to do.  He throws the iPad onto the floor and is now furious with me.  I tell him he can pay with his bank account money to fix the wall.  S10 later tells me the child therapist said that kind of punishment is for high school kids and it was inappropriate for him.  S10 keeps arguing and justifying his behavior and says its not a hole in the wall because you can’t even see outside.  He doesn't want me to  call it a hole.  I tell him it doesn't matter what we call it because there shouldn't be any damage to the wall.  That was the end of it but to be honest, I'm furious that their is a hole in the wall now.  My ex put tons of holes in the wall and slammed doors so hard that she put holes in the wall and broke all the door trim moulding on every door she slammed.

[Panda39]

Hi justaboutdone,

A frustrating dinner to be sure and you're out numbered  

You sound like a boundaries person and that's good with kids you need them for sure.  I would also add in some more conversation too (this takes some time and patience) and maybe before doling out a punishment.

Your kids are definitely acting out, some of the behavior is probably learned from mom, but I can tell you as a teen who acted out, I was looking for my parents attention, time, and validation but at the same time felt that I couldn't ask for it.  So I acted out looking for what I needed.  

I was the wild child 14-15 year old... .sex, drugs, and rock n roll in the late 70's, I cut class for an entire year (the one class I attended was sex education because that was relevant )  I had the "bad" boyfriend with a motorcycle and I was running away from home.  

At some point during all of this I went to a "communications workshop" and one of the exercises we did was to imagine your parents sitting in front of you and talking to you.  Well I imagined my dad wearing his business suit and carrying his briefcase and not saying anything and when I imagined my mom she just sat down in front of me and started yelling at me.  

One unavailable parent and one disapproving parent.  I was invisible to one and a disappointment to the other.  So I acted out trying to be visible to one and regarding my mom if she disapproved of me I would give her something to disapprove of.  So in my 14 year old world emotionally I didn't have any parents.  My parents both thought they were doing the right thing.  :)ad working to provide for his family and Mom trying to teach me the way to be in the world. And they were doing the right things and at the same time the wrong things in terms of what I needed.

So the situation with your son, you could have asked him why he dumped the cheese, he could have told you, you could have said okay if you want to eat that way go ahead.  The next time you have Parmesan cheese on dinner make it a game and you put the cheese on his dinner... .Oh no I'm putting the cheese on your dinner (in a teasing way) I know that their won't be any left for the rest of us otherwise! Make it a game... .he doesn't make a mess, everyone gets some Parmesan, and the 2 of you have an "inside" joke.  

You might have also sat him down and talked to him when he made the hole in the wall (this one sounds like a behavior he learned from mom), my guess is that he meant to slam the door but did not mean to put the hole in the wall.  (I was a big door slammer too back in the day  .  You could have sat him down and asked him what was going on, validated his feelings I know your mad but is this really about cheese or did something else happen today?  Take some time and listen, let him cool down (you cool down too ).  Rather than take the money from him to pay to fix the hole, how about you buy the supplies but have him help you fix it.  Then it becomes time spent together with you and your son learns a new skill.  I would tell him you were sorry for getting angry and instead of taking his money that you would like him to help you fix the hole.  You guys get to go to the hardware store and do guy stuff together.

I will say as a parent that it is much easier to look at your situation in hind sight, than it is to sometimes be in the moment with my own son  As they say kids don't come with a manual.  I'm not a perfect parent no one is, I'm just trying to give some different ideas and perspective to you.  

Below is a link about raising resilient kids that has some great information and ideas... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331459#msg1331459

For what it's worth, I felt this with my SO in terms of his daughters who had their own issues with behavior... .in a weird way I think your kids feel comfortable acting out around you because they know your love is consistent, that they can be their worst and you will still love them.  Not so with a BPD parent who has a million conditions and strings tied to their love.

You might also consider some Therapy for yourself, my SO went during a particularly hard time with his kids (parental alienation/false allegations of abuse)  He found it really helpful to get support and tools from a professional.

I hope others will give suggestions to your scenario above mine is not the only approach.

Hang in there your kids need you  
Panda39

[david]

Our boys were 4 and 8 when the s*** hit the fan. Ex used serious alienation tactics. I focused on them and tried many things until I found things that worked. I stayed as consistent as possible.
Once, S9 was out back catching butterflies. S5 was in the house and I was upstairs putting away the laundry. S9 came upstairs and said S5 messed up one of the butterflies he put in a jar on the kitchen table. I went downstairs to see. The wings were damaged from someone shaking the jar. S5 insisted he didn't touch the jar and that he was just looking at it when the butterfly started bashing itself into the jar. He said it just started going crazy. We were both looking at the jar and I said in a serious tone that we needed to find a specialist on butterflies because we just found the first suicidal butterfly. He stomped his feet upstairs and went to his room. He gave himself a timeout. I gave him a few minutes and went up to talk to him. I said he needed to apologize to his brother. A few minutes later he cam downstairs and apologized. For several years after that when he acted out in some way I would simply say there goes that butterfly again. He knew exactly what I was saying and responded the proper way.
Mothers day last week both boys went to see their mom. She concocted a story about me growing and distributing weed. Both boys laughed because it was so ridiculous. She got angry. They are 19 and 15 now and see mom for who she is. Those first few years were difficult but they did get better.

[justaboutdone]

Thank you and that is really great advice! The only part that I'm still concerned is that the behavior repeats itself often. I took him to have his glasses adjusted because they were all bent. The lady adjusting them said I'm sure they just got bent playing sports. I'm thinking and I know my S10 knows the real reason. Because he gets mad and throws them into the wall or onto the table.

[Panda39]

Thank you and that is really great advice! The only part that I'm still concerned is that the behavior repeats itself often. I took him to have his glasses adjusted because they were all bent. The lady adjusting them said I'm sure they just got bent playing sports. I'm thinking and I know my S10 knows the real reason. Because he gets mad and throws them into the wall or onto the table.

When something like this happens talk to him about what has made him so angry and ask him how he thinks he could handle the situation a better way.

[livednlearned]

I took him to have his glasses adjusted because they were all bent. The lady adjusting them said I'm sure they just got bent playing sports. I'm thinking and I know my S10 knows the real reason. Because he gets mad and throws them into the wall or onto the table.

My son did this exact same thing.

I would pick him up from school and his glasses would be mangled. He would say he wasn't sure how it happened.  

I stopped focusing so much on his behavior and started focusing on his feelings. I also let the natural consequences of his actions play out, but I would validate how he might feel while dealing with those consequences.

Our kids grow up in invalidating environments and unless we validate them, they aren't likely to figure out how they feel and why. It's hard to regulate how you act when you can't regulate how you feel, and adults are supposed to model that for them. A lot of this stuff falls to the normal-range parent, so we have to double up on these skills to make up for the deficit our kids inherit from the disordered parent.

The skills are not intuitive and must be learned.

With his glasses, for example, I might say, "Rough day, huh. Feel like talking about it?"

Sometimes he wouldn't be ready to talk about what happened. I don't know if it's a boy thing but he did most of his talking in the car, sitting next to me. I would say, "No pressure to talk about what happened today. I'm here when you're ready."

I learned to separate the intense emotion stage from the problem-solving stage. I still mess that one up but in general I'm better about waiting for him to cool off before going into fix-it mode and he's gotten better about taking time outs. I think he has internalized that, recognizing that it does work for him.

I treated room time as a chance for us to both cool off -- "I feel kind of activated right now. My day wasn't so hot either, and I'm thinking let's take a break so we can dial things down. I want to hear what's going on, we both know middle school can crush your spirit, so I'll circle back in an hour after I take this break. You let me know when your jets are cooled off"

When he mangled his glasses the last time, it was because he was being bullied by a friend at school, and he didn't know how to handle it so he had a fit in the bathroom and wrecked his glasses.

At that point, I was both broke and overworked, in the middle of my divorce with his dad, and I didn't have money to pay for new frames. I validated that he had a hard day, and said, You musta been feeling really bad for that to happen. We can't make it to the eye glass place because it's closed and I won't have money to pay for them until the end of the month. Let's think together about plan B. Got any ideas?

It took a lot of patience, but his eventual solution was to take money out of his savings and he would use his old prescription until the new ones were fixed.
 
In your situation, S10 seems more openly defiant. My son was more passively defiant.

You may need to front load  your limit setting so that natural consequences play out, like they explain in the Love and Logic books (which helped me figure out some of this stuff).

It did take me a while to get to the right balance of validation and boundary setting. With then S11, I had to create a validating environment. The validation you do during peacetime sets things up so that your kids has a natural desire to restore the relationship back to one of validation and emotional closeness.

It also helped my son label how he was feeling so he could express it better. Eventually, he was able to shout that he felt angry, and I would validate that yes, I could see and feel that he was angry  

But that was preferable to having him slam his door or throw something in his room.

Baby steps!

You might spend months helping your son even figure out how his body feels, how he feels emotionally, and help him connect why he's acting the way he is.

This might be more than what's going on, but with my son, he experiences sensory overload in ways that were hard for me to read. He needed help figuring out what in the environment was irritating him, what in his body was bugging him, and then learn to recognize how they were connected to his irritability or short fuse.

[david]

In the very beginning of this I had difficulty with both boys during transition time between the two residences. They would be absolutely off the wall for the ride and sometimes when we got home. I listened a lot and could never figure out what was bothering them. I did start setting some basic rules/boundaries on acceptable behaviors. That took a few months. It took several years before I didn't see it anymore.
Our oldest was the first to open up and talk to me about some of the things that were going on at his moms. I was seeing a therapist at the time and that helped me stay focused on their needs. Two things I believed helped a lot. Their stories usually included something they said or did and what their moms response was. Depending on her mood she would fly off the handle and yell at them or tell them they were wrong. She invalidated the heck out of them. Having me listen to them and not immediately judge them let them slowly begin to open up more. They needed to test me because they didn't want the same kind of rage from me and they were honestly afraid of the illogical outburst. Putting yourself in their shoes you could see how they figured all adults are like that. Getting the right balance took practice. They started trusting me more and more. This led to more openness. The trust issue is a big deal. They need a safe place to make mistakes. Eventually I started making simple mistakes in front of them and showing them how to properly respond. This was over at least three years before things majorly improved. There were small steps forward and sometimes several steps back.
I can give my ex credit for making me a better parent.

[ForeverDad]

He’s now furious and started slamming his bedroom door until he put a hole in the wall with the handle... .  My ex put tons of holes in the wall and slammed doors so hard that she put holes in the wall and broke all the door trim molding on every door she slammed.

My ex put a 3 inch hole in our master bedroom wall when she kicked open the door years ago.  Another time she go so angry she kicked the master closet door broke the center of it, yes a cheaper door.  My son added a couple holes but they weren't rages, so I can't answer on how to deal with your 10 year olds.  Hopefully their behaviors are fleas picked up from the dysfunction of their disordered and acting out parent, and not displays of their core selves.

Excellent posts here:

I stopped focusing so much on his behavior and started focusing on his feelings. I also let the natural consequences of his actions play out, but I would validate how he might feel while dealing with those consequences... .
Our kids grow up in invalidating environments and unless we validate them, they aren't likely to figure out how they feel and why. It's hard to regulate how you act when you can't regulate how you feel, and adults are supposed to model that for them. A lot of this stuff falls to the normal-range parent, so we have to double up on these skills to make up for the deficit our kids inherit from the disordered parent... .
The skills are not intuitive and must be learned... .
I learned to separate the intense emotion stage from the problem-solving stage. I still mess that one up but in general I'm better about waiting for him to cool off before going into fix-it mode and he's gotten better about taking time outs... .
It did take me a while to get to the right balance of validation and boundary setting.

In the very beginning of this I had difficulty with both boys during transition time between the two residences. They would be absolutely off the wall for the ride and sometimes when we got home. I listened a lot and could never figure out what was bothering them. I did start setting some basic rules/boundaries on acceptable behaviors.

[justaboutdone]

Thank you everyone very much for the responses!  To be completely honest, and I know you are only painting a very small picture of your experience, but I feel like my situation is completely different.  My kids scream and yell at me and blame me for everything.  I will be calm and explain how what they are saying doesn't make it possible for me to blame.  They don't even care and don't process anything that I say.  If I talk then it would seem I am making it worse because they say I'm a liar or I am not listening to them.  Actually, the excuses they come up with when I explain myself are off the charts and seem like very calculated bullying and lying.  They sound exactly like my ex including many years ago when we were married. 

Just to give you an idea how far along the alienation is but the kids tell mom every single detail of what happens at my house.  They still report to her and yet the kids won't tell me one single thing about their time with her.  Once we were driving by the carwash in front of the ex's work.  S10 said it was the best carwash in town.  I asked him how he knew that or if he had ever been through that car wash.  He suddenly got quiet and said he didn't know and couldn't remember and wanted the topic dropped.  That happen all the time.  If I have a friend over, another family, or heaven forbid a girlfriend, the kids berate them non-stop.  If we go somewhere in public and mom is there, they run over to her and sit with her the whole time.  If they walk into a room with her and I'm there, then they position themselves between mom and I.

Another example from this evening, my D10 was on an expensive household furniture retailer website picking out all kinds of furniture for her room.  Ex loves this store even though we couldn't afford the expensive furniture.  My daughter brings the computer to me with a $3,600 balance!  I very slowly turn the conversation around into how the furniture is expensive and the things she was looking at could be found much less expensive on other websites.  But I look at it some and try to see what she likes about the furniture and how she envisions it fitting into her room.  The process takes awhile and it's after dinner and still have a messy kitchen at 7:30pm. I also tell me daughter I will have to look later but I won't be buying the very expensive pieces she picked out.  D10 goes crazy, screaming, yelling, crying!  I grab some ear plugs and continue cleaning the kitchen because it was piercing.  I tell her that she needs to calm down for 30 minutes before we can continue talking about this.  I go outside to the driveway with my son, and I can hear my D10 in the back of the house screaming and slamming her door repeatedly.  I'm embarrassed if any of the neighbors walk by.  Anyhow, exhausting evening and heading to bed.  Thank you all very much for your comments.

[Panda39]

Just to give you an idea how far along the alienation is but the kids tell mom every single detail of what happens at my house.  They still report to her and yet the kids won't tell me one single thing about their time with her.  

My SO's daughter's were 10 & 14 during their parents divorce and they too went through everything at their dads house and reported back to their mother, down to what was in the refrigerator... .God forbid you have raspberry sorbet on the premises  

(Okay, one funny story about being careful about what you look for because you might not like what you find ... .I sent a text to my SO that he left his undies at my house over the weekend ... .that text was reported back to his ex and she went ballistic and it was a dead give away that the kids were going through his phone.)

His older daughter was at a friends using a video recorder she got for Christmas from her dad   She taped herself talking to her mom on the phone about what her younger sister found in dad's closet.  A copy was included with his documentation for the court during his divorce.  

His children at that time were horrific and frankly to my shame today I was encouraging him to let them live with their mother if they hated him so much and loved her so much!  I was in love and protective   But my SO to his credit never did that he didn't give up even when false allegations of abuse were made about him.  These two monsters where is daughters, he recognized that they were children, that the puppet master was his ex, and that if he let them go they would just be back on his doorstep later with even more problems.

The 2 years during the divorce were the worst, the girls now call this "the dark times" and they were.  My SO ended up with 5 days a week + 1 weekend a month custody once the divorce was final.  The tide had turned and he had more time with his kids and yes for a while everyone was still miserable.  It took time for everyone to re-adjust and to learn to trust each other, it took therapy for all of them, it took their mother shooting herself in the foot over and over again (unemployment, evicted 3 times, couch surfing, lying over and over to her kids... .you get the picture), it took talk of suicide and inpt treatment for their younger daughter (diagnosed with ptsd), and the final nail in mom's coffin was betraying both of her daughters in big way 5 years after the separation/3 years after the divorce. Currently,  :)17 is low contact with her mom, mostly phone calls and D21 is no contact with her mother.

In my experience, it takes energy, and effort, and time, and understanding, and patience, and therapy, and growing maturity of your kids, and sometimes like D17 a crisis, and failures on your wife's part to get through this.  It is extremely hard because you essentially do it on your own.  If I had to guess there is very little cooperation or co-parenting with your ex and if anything she adds to your headaches.  It is really hard and really exhausting work you're doing.  

What I'm trying to get at is what is going on in your house has happened in my SO's house and in the houses of countless others here on these boards. I believe if you hang in there the tide will turn and we want to share tools and examples that helped us.  

It sounds like you could use a little self care, you sound worn out try and step out of the dad role sometimes and take care of you.  It's important that you do so you can tackle your kids.  Remember they are just kids and they want to love both of their parents and have to negotiate a lot just like you do because of their mother.  

Panda39

[livednlearned]

What you are describing sounds like abuse.

The skills for dealing with abuse are not intuitive and must be learned.

All the relationship skills and communication skills used to deal with BPD can be applied to your kids. Validating how they feel, combined with rock solid boundaries that you can enforce to protect yourself (versus punishing them).

Kids can be abusive, and then can also adapt to an environment in which there are boundaries.

Have you read Dr. Craig Childress's work on ju-jitsu parenting? There is a powerful section in his short article on jujitsu parenting about the type of stuff we do that doesn't work when alienation is involved: he calls them "intent to task," and "intent to change."

You may find some really helpful phrases in Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak, too. When an alienated kid starts mimicking that stuff about lying, it's really tough. What you did with the carwash is exactly what Warshak recommends -- getting your kids to think for themselves (without overtly disparaging the other parent or telling them they don't know what they're talking about).

While my son is not abusive toward me, SO's son (with a uBPD mom) behaved the way you describe your kids' behavior. SO met with a child psychologist to try and figure out the best way to set limits with his then S12. The psychologist gave SO a very structured way of setting and enforcing boundaries that kind of shocked S12 into respecting SO. It was sort of confusing for S12 because SO did it in a very loving, calm way with lots of validation and emotional detachment.

By structured, I mean SO only ever set boundaries that could be enforced. He never made idle threats, and when S12 crossed the line, boom. Boundary. He also started to think about boundaries in terms of things that protected him from S12's behaviors, versus punishing S12. He couldn't stop S12 from singing at the top of his lungs in the middle of the night, but he could turn the Internet off from 10pm to 8am so that the wireless headphones didn't work. He didn't even tell S12, he just did it. And he bought headphones for himself so he could sleep.

You may also find Love and Logic to be really helpful. That book made me realize it wasn't a kid problem so much as it was a me problem -- I think we easily underestimate how immovable our boundaries have to be.

Thinking about it as a me problem made me feel like I had some control because it was my behavior I was working to change, as opposed to trying to control someone else's behavior, which is a losing proposition, especially with alienated kids and a BPD ex.

You deserve to be treated well.

What happens when you put your ear plugs in?

How do the kids respond?

[Panda39]

Just to give you an idea how far along the alienation is but the kids tell mom every single detail of what happens at my house.  They still report to her and yet the kids won't tell me one single thing about their time with her. 

 

I had another comment on this... .there is some FOG happening here too. Your ex is trying to control what goes on in your house through your kids.  Unless you are abusing your children who cares what they report to their mom. Yes she will twist everything into some kind of abuse... .so what... .clearly the courts by giving you majority custody saw who the problem person is.

My SO found it very empowering when he came to the realization he was really a good dad and stopped buying the bad parent projection that his ex was peddling.  You might be struggling but that does not make you a bad parent.  You are providing your kids with stability, food, cloths, a roof over their head, love, education, medical care... .you name it you are doing it.  On top of that you recognize where you are struggling and are reaching out for assistance and tools to improve.  You are a good dad, who is doing his best and is striving to do even better. 

Believe in you.
Panda39

[david]

Panda 39 last post brought back memories for me. That is what happened to me and once I came to the realization that I was a good dad things got easier. Lots of people used to say this years ago on this site. Don't let ex rent space in your head.

[justaboutdone]

What happens when you put your ear plugs in?

How do the kids respond?

Thank you everyone for your incredible insight!  If to answer the question, when I put my ear plugs in, the behavior initially gets worse. But then when the verbal doesn't get through to me they turn to being physical which usually involves throwing something, hiiting, biting, or slamming a door.

[ForeverDad]

Is this akin to extinction bursts... .trying to get things to change back or even plain negative engagement?  Sounds like they're going about seeking (whatever) the wrong way.  Hopefully it is only 'fleas' from the past and ongoing dysfunction that may reduce or go away, eventually, with learned communication strategies, both you and them.

[justaboutdone]

 

Your ex is trying to control what goes on in your house through your kids.  Unless you are abusing your children who cares what they report to their mom.

My SO found it very empowering when he came to the realization he was really a good dad and stopped buying the bad parent projection that his ex was peddling. 

Awesome stuff Panda! Thank you.  My ex is definitely trying to control what happens in my house.  I have said that to people several times.  Pretty much all my house rules and everything I do has been closely established by my ex.  My ex didn't do it directly but she controls the kids and they rage and insist on things being done certain ways(the way mom tells them they need to do it).  To be honest so many times when I step back and look at the situation, I feel like I am babysitter upholding moms rules.  But that is the path of least resistance when dealing with the kids too though.

That is the first I heard about being a good dad and things feeling better but agree strongly with that!  I get bombarded with critical comments on OFW everyday and all week.  I average about 25-30 messages a week from her.  But when a few days go by and I get a break, then it feels empowering not being judged constantly.

[justaboutdone]

Hopefully it is only 'fleas' from the past and ongoing dysfunction that may reduce or go away, eventually, with learned communication strategies, both you and them.

I've never heard of extinction bursts but that is very interesting for sure.  From what I just read about it, you basically just ignore the childs tantrum?  I have read the Jujitsu parenting by Dr Childress and his advice has been better than any therapist has provided me.  But the communication strategies need to get better to turn this around. Right now I'm reading, Have a New Kids by Friday.

[ForeverDad]

Once I came to the realization that I was a good dad things got easier.
Lots of people used to say this years ago on this site:  Don't let ex rent space in your head.

I don't know why I had less parental alienation through my kid than others here have experienced, it's not for lack of the ex trying!  He was a daddy's boy but around the time his reading improved, in the middle of third grade, he became aware of the concept of 'fairness'.  His mother used that when I was seeking custody and majority time and a Guardian ad Litem (GAL, a lawyer for him) had just been assigned.  After an exchange he jumped in the car and immediately exclaimed, "I want 50/50 time!"  I knew where that came from.

I would listen to Dr Childress or other experts more than to me.

[justaboutdone]

So tonight, D10 just drew a picture of me with my head first in the trash can with her standing next to me and holding something sharp and labeled knife. She says that she stabbed and killed me and put me in the trash can.

[Panda39]

justaboutdone   

I'm so sorry you had to see that. Is she going to Therapy?  I'd show it to the therapist if she is, that is scary.

I would also ask my daughter why she drew that and I would tell her it was really hurtful to you. (She may not acknowledge you but it is okay to tell her that hurt)

Foreverdad mentioned Dr. Craig Childress he's an expert on parental alienation. Here is a URL that will take you to a summary page of various articles, youtube video etc. www.dr-childress-index.droppages.com/

Panda39

[david]

If D10 isn't in therapy I suspect you can unilaterally take her to therapy. Keep the picture and write down what she said. I believe a therapist will see this for what it is, alienation plain and simple. If ex takes you to court I can't see any judge requiring you to contact ex if you suspect she is the cause. If the therapist concludes the same thing ex will have a lot of explaining to do. Make sure you have a plan on how you think custody should be to resolve this situation. Ex also needs therapy and the courts would probably agree if you can provide more than a single incident.
You will probably need new skills that handle situations like this. I went to a therapist in the beginning. It really helped me find ways to defuse exs' alienation tactics. Eventually her alienation tactics backfired on her because the boys figured her out. I would not have figured a lot of the things on my own and it would have taken much longer. Made mistakes, at first, but I learned what worked and reinforced those things. We have two boys and different things worked for each of them. Some things worked for both but not all. It is a trial and error at first.