"You know you can tell me anything..."

[anyplacesafe]

At the weekend, my wife and I were visiting my parents. My mum seemed 'on' from the outset, and I felt embarrassed. Criticising places, the royal wedding, and by Sunday my wife had gone quiet. I know why (suspected at the time & having talked about it): she felt that if she said one thing wrong or more wrong, there would be another big fight putting us all in turmoil for the next two/three months (as happened in the run up to the wedding). This is pretty accurate tbh but I am so chirpy and placating with my parents in that respect, making chirpy small talk to cover the silence rather than going quiet. But on Sunday and yesterday my mum said that my wife was very quiet, what was wrong with her, was she fed up of my parents (what a trap that would have been!), and then at the end of that conversation "if you were having problems you WOULD tell me, wouldn't you? with ANYTHING. You know you can tell me ANYTHING and I'd be on your side." I just wish that were true, I wish it so much.

I struggle with my reflex response being to wish my wife would be more like me. In the conversation itself, I stayed ostensibly calm, I said no my wife was just tired, she was fine, but also that I can't speak for her. But it's like I've had an allergic reaction. I can't sleep, I can't eat... .any criticism at all from my mother sets me right back.

I was doing so much better - my mood had improved, I was calmer, I had more headspace. But here we are. I've had to call in sick to work because my concentration is so shot. I could throw up. My fear is overwhelming right now. I am trying to just stay with it and resolve to stay neutral and calm if the subject comes up again. But I hate the physical symptoms! I am trying to have self-compassion. It is so difficult when 'You can tell me anything' and other loving words are just what i want to hear but I know rationally I can't trust them. I even know that she wants to believe them and wants them to be true, but she's just not capable of it.

I don't know what I'm looking for here. I want to acknowledge that I feel shame about my coping methods, and to hear about other people whose marriages have been put under pressure by a BPD parent, I suppose. Thanks for listening.

[Panda39]

Boy, your body sure is telling you something.  Don't beat yourself up though.  You were raised by your mom and have been trained to act in certain ways... .to play your role within your family. (we all are).  It took time to learn these behaviors and it will take time to unlearn them too.

How often do you and your wife see your mom? How long are those visits?

I think you did a good job avoiding the mines that your mom was putting out there and I agree it is exhausting.   It's really hard when you want a nice relationship with your mom and on the surface it sounds that way, but you know and I know there is a whole other thing going on under the surface.

Because of both you and your wife had stressful reactions to this visit, I would consider developing some boundaries around how often and for how long you visit with your mom, as well as recognizing when it might be time to leave early.

Maybe cut the number of visits in half, cut the time you are there in half, and if your wife gets quiet or you have physical symptoms it might be time to cut the visit short and head home.  Boundaries are not about punishing your parents but are about protecting you and your wife.

Panda39

[anyplacesafe]

You were raised by your mom and have been trained to act in certain ways... .to play your role within your family. (we all are).

Thanks for being kind and compassionate (I think my surprise when anyone responds in a way other than either "you're making a fuss about nothing" or "just tell her where to go, you're enabling this!" shows the place I'm in). Yeah. I've become the absolute expert in placatory behaviour. Ditto my dad. So she's got very high standards for how everyone else should behave.

How often do you and your wife see your mom? How long are those visits?

I see my mum every 10 days to 2 weeks. My wife sees her with me less frequently probably every 3-4 weeks or so. Recently she's seen her more often. We spend perhaps 1 weekend in 6 or 7 with them. If that makes sense.

I think you did a good job avoiding the mines that your mom was putting out there

Thanks. Since yesterday I've really been doubting myself, because in the past my mum has claimed 'if you'd just been more open with me, it would have been fine!" but it literally never has been. It's always made it worse/fed her flames to say more, in parallel scenarios from the past.

It's really hard when you want a nice relationship with your mom and on the surface it sounds that way, but you know and I know there is a whole other thing going on under the surface.

It's awful. Especially given that the anxiety makes me want my mum for comfort, even though the comfort I'm imagining probably wouldn't happen how I wanted. Once I got very sick while my mum was mad at me after a fight and it didn't alter her behaviour at all (I'm talking hospitalisation). The first time I ever experienced panic attacks I told her right away (I was a teenager) and she said how selfish I was being in telling her, because of the worry it would cause her.

Maybe cut the number of visits in half, cut the time you are there in half, and if your wife gets quiet or you have physical symptoms it might be time to cut the visit short and head home. 

I am going to try. Cutting the visit short is very difficult because of transport issues but cutting the visits in half, especially the ones where she comes too, would be possible.

Boundaries are not about punishing your parents but are about protecting you and your wife.

YES. I need need need to think like this. Sometimes I feel so enmeshed and the emotions feel so painful that it makes me doubt my marriage (does my mother see something that I don't? etc) and not feel willing to protect it. But my wife is very good for me and to me. We don't have the perfect relationship, we aren't perfect people, but being with her is what I want more than anything. I feel safe with her. She's kind to me. And very accepting.

Thanks. The FOG is strong, all those classic child-of-uBPD-questions like

Can MY mother really be this bad?
She's never been on anti-depressants or hospitalised or diagnosed so am I way off here?
Am I just using this to obscure problems in my marriage which my mother can see?
If I were just stronger, this would be fine, surely?
Am I using the idea that she's uBPD to try and stop her ever criticising me, ever again?


keep playing through my head. I'm TRYING to get past them. I just wish I didn't feel so ill.

[cedarview]

Thanks. The FOG is strong, all those classic child-of-uBPD-questions like

Can MY mother really be this bad?
She's never been on anti-depressants or hospitalised or diagnosed so am I way off here?
Am I just using this to obscure problems in my marriage which my mother can see?
If I were just stronger, this would be fine, surely?
Am I using the idea that she's uBPD to try and stop her ever criticising me, ever again?

Ah these sound SO familiar to me. Especially the question about are you ignoring problems in your own marriage that your mother is somehow magically able to see. My own uBPD mother and father have tried to frame our issues so that it is all my wife's fault. After all, things were all moving along swimmingly before she came along, right? Except that no, they were not all moving along fine and it just took a third party (my wife) to finally see what was going on with their long term emotional abuse of yours truly. At one point my father (I believe uNPD) tried repeatedly to "commiserate" with me because , and I paraphrase, "You and I are in the same boat, I think". In other words, his own wife who yells, gives the silent treatment, requires walking on eggshells, is easily offended, capable of immense vindication, is, in his mind, equivalent to MY wife who is loving and caring and only wants the best for her husband and children. At this point my parents have been speaking negatively in public about my wife behind her back and also doing that to people who my wife and I consider friends of ours.

Please don't develop doubts about your spouse unless the doubts and concerns arise from you, yourself, and your relationship. The BPD will do or say ANYTHING to make you doubt yourself and your actions. They feed off your uncertainty and self doubt because it makes you easier to control and mold.

[sklamath]

I struggle with my reflex response being to wish my wife would be more like me. In the conversation itself, I stayed ostensibly calm, I said no my wife was just tired, she was fine, but also that I can't speak for her.

I used to feel this way about my spouse, too, who would act very similarly to your wife when we were with my parents. Why won't he just try harder? Surely that would make it better. But over time, I have recognized what a gift it is to have a partner who can remain outside the FOG. He may not be able to fix it, but he can be help me objectively look at the situation... .and comfort me after we leave my parents' house (and I invariably start crying... .no room for anyone's emotions but Mom's inside her house). Remaining "observers" is something that both my husband and my SIL have been able to bring to our family. Yes, it drives Mom bonkers because they refuse to jump on the triangle, and thus she can't control them.

Can MY mother really be this bad?
She's never been on anti-depressants or hospitalised or diagnosed so am I way off here?
Am I just using this to obscure problems in my marriage which my mother can see?
If I were just stronger, this would be fine, surely?
Am I using the idea that she's uBPD to try and stop her ever criticising me, ever again?

Since I know that my uBPD mom's perceptions are skewed, and that my view of the world is colored by growing up with her, I have struggled with a lot of these same questions. And most of the time, my mom's behavior is similar, with full-on tantrums relatively few and far between; so barring a full-on rage, how many passive-aggressive jabs, pouty faces, and trick questions does it take to consider her behavior "bad"? I've found two good measures: Would I put up with this behavior from anyone else? No. And would I be angry as all heck if I knew it was happening to my best friend? Yes.

Her failure to seek treatment obviously means a problem doesn't exist. It's all in your head, not hers. 

I see uBPD as a way to make sense of finally seeing Mom's behavior for what it is and finding tools to respond appropriately, rather than simply reacting to her oversized reactions. Is using your insight into BPD to let her criticism have less of an impact on you while trying to have a healthy relationship wrong? I don't think so. Is misusing what you know about BPD to invalidate/dismiss uBPDp outright or shirk responsibility for our role in sometimes making things worse wrong? Yes. (Just so we're clear, I'm not saying that you were wrong here, only that I know sometimes I make things worse with my uBPD mom by enabling or reacting.)

Please don't develop doubts about your spouse unless the doubts and concerns arise from you, yourself, and your relationship. The BPD will do or say ANYTHING to make you doubt yourself and your actions. They feed off your uncertainty and self doubt because it makes you easier to control and mold.

^^THIS. Your strong marriage and your wife's intolerance for the game puts Mom out the outside.  She's going to do whatever she can to make it about her.

[anyplacesafe]

I used to feel this way about my spouse, too, who would act very similarly to your wife when we were with my parents. Why won't he just try harder? Surely that would make it better. But over time, I have recognized what a gift it is to have a partner who can remain outside the FOG. He may not be able to fix it, but he can be help me objectively look at the situation... .and comfort me after we leave my parents' house (and I invariably start crying... .no room for anyone's emotions but Mom's inside her house). Remaining "observers" is something that both my husband and my SIL have been able to bring to our family. Yes, it drives Mom bonkers because they refuse to jump on the triangle, and thus she can't control them.

I worry about how to manage the toll it takes on my wife - what did you do for your husband?

Is using your insight into BPD to let her criticism have less of an impact on you while trying to have a healthy relationship wrong? I don't think so. Is misusing what you know about BPD to invalidate/dismiss uBPDp outright or shirk responsibility for our role in sometimes making things worse wrong? Yes. (Just so we're clear, I'm not saying that you were wrong here, only that I know sometimes I make things worse with my uBPD mom by enabling or reacting.)

That's a very clear way of putting it, thank you so much. I think sometimes I do make it worse. God, it's SO HARD though.

Ah these sound SO familiar to me. Especially the question about are you ignoring problems in your own marriage that your mother is somehow magically able to see. My own uBPD mother and father have tried to frame our issues so that it is all my wife's fault. After all, things were all moving along swimmingly before she came along, right? Except that no, they were not all moving along fine and it just took a third party (my wife) to finally see what was going on with their long term emotional abuse of yours truly. At one point my father (I believe uNPD) tried repeatedly to "commiserate" with me because , and I paraphrase, "You and I are in the same boat, I think". In other words, his own wife who yells, gives the silent treatment, requires walking on eggshells, is easily offended, capable of immense vindication, is, in his mind, equivalent to MY wife who is loving and caring and only wants the best for her husband and children. At this point my parents have been speaking negatively in public about my wife behind her back and also doing that to people who my wife and I consider friends of ours.

Please don't develop doubts about your spouse unless the doubts and concerns arise from you, yourself, and your relationship. The BPD will do or say ANYTHING to make you doubt yourself and your actions. They feed off your uncertainty and self doubt because it makes you easier to control and mold.

Thank you. I don't THINK my doubts do. I just sometimes get really scared. I am so grateful not to be in the same boat as my dad. Sometimes I know I've picked up fleas/mannerisms from dealing with my mum and project them onto my wife but her response is always so totally different.

It's just scary. I'm trying to make a conscious effort not to ruminate on/worry about my mum between phonecalls but it's like the weasels in my brain (metaphorical, don't worry, I've not just casually said I hear voices or anything) KNOW and are freaking out. I feel frightened and motherless.

How do you learn to mother yourself?

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Anyplacesafe,   

There's so much I can relate to in your post because I've walked through so many experiences like them. There's a couple things that stood out to me.

One is that you mentioned wishing you W was more like you and I assume you meant in the way she relates to your mom. I remember catching myself in that place when I was first married and DH wouldn't cooperate and respond in a safe and what I thought non triggering way. I wasn't even aware of it at first until the scenes played out in front of me. You see, I had become so adjusted to not rocking the boat that I didn't realize that others might not be used to that. They still had to be themselves, not who I thought they needed to be. I'm not trying to say that's what you're doing or thinking, but I throw it out there for you to think about.

Have you read any books about BPD? One that has been super helpful to me is Surviving a Borderline Parent and also another book that is interesting and helpful is Missing: Coming to Terms with a Borderline Mother  .  As Panda39 said, your body is really telling you something.

 
Wools

[anyplacesafe]

Hey Woolspinner! Great to hear from you again.

you mentioned wishing you W was more like you and I assume you meant in the way she relates to your mom. I remember catching myself in that place when I was first married and DH wouldn't cooperate and respond in a safe and what I thought non triggering way. I wasn't even aware of it at first until the scenes played out in front of me. You see, I had become so adjusted to not rocking the boat that I didn't realize that others might not be used to that. They still had to be themselves, not who I thought they needed to be. I'm not trying to say that's what you're doing or thinking, but I throw it out there for you to think about.

Oh, yeah, that's totally what I'm doing - and I have a friend who's also the only child of (I think) a uBPD mum, and she falls into the same pattern. It's what I find most excruciating and shameful -- that impulse. I'm aware of it and I'm apologetic about it but I don't avoid it well. OR I try and be compliant enough for two people. My mum criticising my wife is the most painful thing for me, worse - significantly more painful - than her criticising me. I feel so panicky I almost dissociate, under the skin.

My T says that e.g. the nausea/vomiting is my body's form of protest because I metaphorically can't 'stomach' what is happening, and that a lot of the pain I experience is actually anger. It's so hard because now she's back to being nice, and I have an unpleasant and painful hospital procedure tomorrow which makes me feel young and vulnerable. I am trying to distract myself from thoughts of my mother and keep busy, but it's difficult. Even seeing a mother and child is painful.

[sklamath]

I worry about how to manage the toll it takes on my wife - what did you do for your husband?

Fortunately, he is half Vulcan. He tends to see most things objectively and does not take things personally—this is a very good thing for me. He’s seen my mom’s behavior for what it is since the beginning, and doesn’t give her much personal disclosure to work with. But weirdly (or perhaps predictably), by not being invested he’s never gotten “hooked”. Mom doesn’t even try, and what’s more: she doesn’t seem that offended by him his lack of engagement. So the biggest issue for him is when he objectively narrates something Mom did or said, the reality of it hits me like a ton of bricks, and then he has to listen to me cry about “why can’t my mom love me?” and he questions why I still care.

How does your wife feel about your mom’s behavior? Sometimes it’s a little easier for a spouse, stepping in from the outside, to be relatively impervious. Because it sounds like the intended target of mom’s criticism of your wife is really you, despite your wife being the subject. Is your wife able to see that? Or is she feeling wounded by it?