Rumination

[LeneLu]

Hello,

I just read a post the other day that discussed "rumination".  It was the first time I came across it here.  But, is just one more textbook reaction that I, as the non-BPD, have had as it turns out.

I spent months ruminating about my situation with my uBPDsis.  Everyone who I talked to about the situation asked me "Why are you spending so much energy and thought about her?" 

I honestly couldn't answer, didn't know why and I still don't.

Why do we, as non-BPDs, ruminate?

LeenLou

[zachira]

You wonder why you are ruminating over your situation with your BPD. First of all, how do you define ruminating? My understanding of ruminating, which may be very different from yours, is it is obsessive thinking that just does not seem to stop or resolve any of the uncomfortable feelings. I guess you are asking how to stop the rumination which is not easy to answer because it involves many different ways of being: One is to keep busy. We also need quiet time to observe our feelings until we move into more comfortable feelings. It is important to discover our passions and follow them, and also seek out people who truly nourish and respect us. Can you tell us more about your current situation with your BPD and what is that you are mostly ruminating about? We are here to listen and help in any way we can. Please keep us posted.

[No-One]

I spent months ruminating about my situation with my uBPDsis.  Everyone who I talked to about the situation asked me "Why are you spending so much energy and thought about her?"  

Hi Leenlou:
I tend to ruminate too much myself.  I think if we have that tendancy, it's something we have to learn to manage, as you would a bad habit. Distracting ourselves with activities we like, can be a good way to stop the script that keeps replaying in our head.

Most people haven't had to deal with BPD behaviors, so it is hard for them to understand.   They can easily get tired of hearing our ruminations.  I had to do my own reality check at one point, about leaning on one friend and sharing the latest situation with my sister.  I started therapy and then made it a point to NOT bring up my sister in conversations with my friend.  I decided that if she asked about my sister, I'd make some brief comments, but I wouldn't initiate the topic or carry on at any length.

We can only set boundaries in regard to things we have control over.  There are some things that we don't have control over, and have no power to change.  Some things we have to just radically accept (Didn't cause it, can't control it and can't cure it)

I think you will find the rumination threads/workshops from this website, at the links below, helpful to read:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=103396.0;all

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=103396.0;all

The quotes below are from a Psychology Today article.  You may want to go to the link to read the entire article.

People who ruminate are much more likely to develop problems with depression and anxiety, and those problems are hard to overcome for someone who fails to change ruminative thought patterns. . .

Rumination is a bad habit, so you will need to work on distracting activities on a regular basis if you want to break that habit; trying distraction once or twice is not enough!. . .

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/overcoming-self-sabotage/201002/rumination-problem-solving-gone-wrong

Distraction will probably be your best means to stop the ruminating scripts.  Journaling thoughts could be a replacement to leaning on a friend and dumping your ruminations on them. One approach is to only allow yourself a certain amount of time for the activity. Save/defer your ruminating thoughts until the appointed time. Perhaps you start with 20-30 minutes a day, then every few days, once a week, etc.  After you journal, then distract yourself with some activity you like.  Eventually, you can find that you will spend less and less time journaling.

[LeneLu]

Maybe I am not posing the question correctly. 

If ruminating is a common trait among non-BPDs, why?  What is it about being the recipient of BPD behavior that makes non-BPDs respond that way?  Is it just that we are searching and searching for some rationale to their behavior? Are we trying to uncover a reason that isn't there? 

I think I did spend a lot of time reliving the "blow up" that lead me to NC, in an attempt to see any way that my uBPDsis's response made sense.  That is what is just so frustrating about this, there seem to be no answers.

Despite being NC for 14 months, in therapy, with the support of many family members, I still spontaneously get triggered with thoughts of her.  Just the other day I was washing dishes; there is one pan that I always ask my hubby to clean.  It is a heavy, cast iron skillet.  It is painful on my wrists and can sometimes lock up my joints from holding on too tightly.  In my head, I literally heard my uBPDsis, as if she were sitting right there, ridiculing me with a snarky laugh, for asking for help with it, suggesting I was being "lazy" (something she has called me before). It came on so quick in my head that I didn't have time to recognize it and bat it away.

[No-One]

LeenLou:

If ruminating is a common trait among non-BPDs, why?  What is it about being the recipient of BPD behavior that makes non-BPDs respond that way?  Is it just that we are searching and searching for some rationale to their behavior? Are we trying to uncover a reason that isn't there? 

Losing a relationship is like a grieving process.  Sometime, I think it's harder to process going no-contact (or very limited contact) than it would be to process a person's death. 

I've been NC with my sister for over a year now. For me, I've accepted the fact that thoughts of her will pop into my mind, from time to time. Some of us are more prone to ruminate, especially those of us who deal with anxiety and/or perhaps a tendancy towards OCD behavior.

Some level of rumination can be normal, and part of processing loss and life's disappointments. It's similar to worrying. Some people are good about shutting down thoughts of their work place, after they leave for the day.  Others, might ruminate or worry about something work related and carry that into their evening at home.

A tendancy to ruminate can relate to our brain wiring, or our brain chemestry (either brain chemestry in general, or at a given point in time).  Some of us have to work a little harder to tame rumination and/or worrying. 

We are all a "work in progress".  You can look at rumination as a bad habit that you need to manage.  Most of us have some weak points that we need to manage for a life time.

Sometimes, we can become unmindful about uncontrolled rumination and we can slip into the habit.  It can seem offensive, if others observe our rumination and point it out to us, maybe make us angry.  If someone points it out, they are actually doing you a favor - to prompt you to manage your ruminations better.

The essence of The Serenity Prayer can be helpful to call upon: "to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference"

The Al-Anon logic is also something to remind yourself of: "I didn't cause it, I can't cure it, and I can't control it.

Hang in there. I don't think that most of us will eliminate all thoughts of the BPD person who caused us pain. We can forgive them, without resuming a relationship with them (or a relationship without strong boundaries).

I've come to look at managing ruminations in the same way I manage habits with eating, exercising and relaxation techniques.  I periodically lose my grip on a good run and can easily slip down the slippery slope into bad habits.  The key is to keep doing a reality check, and recover from a tiny slip, before it becomes a major fall.

[Snoopy737]

Hiya LeenLou

I am actually working with the same questions as you, as of today where it just became too much and I had to cry for several hours and call a help line.

I can only say what's in my mind, and then hope you maybe can use some of the answers.

I'm the brother, and my sis is uBPD. And we're NC since yeah 14 months now, like you. Last time it was NC for 5 years, because sis never forgives and she remembers everything like an elephant, and she will not hesitate holding it against me, if she's in that mood.

I don't know if it was my post, you've been reading, but I wrote my first post about rumination for about one month ago. Why? Because I can't let go, either. And I've also been in therapy, I've been for 2 years now. And we worked a lot with the subject about getting a better relationship with my sister.

You can say the difference this time was, that I had a solid backup of one nurse, several docs and two psychologists. Actually, I told them about my relationship with my sister step by step from NC and going to contact again. Pretty lucky I had all these folks as support when sis decided NC again.

My primary psychologist said, I had done everything in a proper way, like she would have done herself, and if sis wouldn't have exploded in my face at this episode, she would just have done it in another episode 2 weeks or maybe a month later. So I'm really glad I had this psychologist at my side this time, because sister always tell me, it's me who is wrong and sick and that there's nothing wrong with her. This time I ask myself. Ain't it peculiar that your sister who you love very, very much would speak to you like that, because would you speak to her or anyone else like that? And that I have to answer myself, too, he he, and I can only say No. Of course I wouldn't say that to her. I want to get along. And that's what I've been trying for for many years now.

So: Why am I ruminating about it, when I now that a full backup-team has covered my back and says my sister sounds like she's pretty abnormal and sounds like BPD and that I can't do anything about it, unless I can do magic?  Well, I guess it's because my sister was really sweet when we were kids, and maybe I remember that and want her to be like that, now. Or maybe I remember the times when she as an adult has been nice, but now where I really know her, I must also say, she can't hold the nice, friendly facade more than a telephone conversation or a family dinner. When I have been with her for longer time, she either breaks down with headaches and migraines or she changes personality and loose her temper. Suddenly answering very rude and offending. I've found out that she has used all her energy pretending to be 'normal' and pleasant. And when there's no more energy her real personality shows.

I know that now, and I try telling myself that the pleasant sister doesn't exist anymore, but for maybe three hours. So I can't get something back that doesn't exist.

So me ruminating was about wanting someone very special to me, back. How could I do that, because I wanted so much to have the kind sister. But when I try talking with her about her difficulties, she just says "I don't wanna talk about it!" or she walks away, or hang up the phone or cries and says to my old mother (if we're in a family dinner) that "maybe she just should go home", and with the underlying message that I have spoiled the dinner. And then my mom says 'No! Stay, we talk about something else.' and then she stays and I have to listen to her snarky laugh, oh yeah, I know that, too.

I think, though, that she really believes she's the 'good one' even though I don't say cruel things to her, like she does to me. And she completely refuses therapy. I'm the one with anxiety and depression (and that's true), and the she can actually say, that 'I'm the weak one, and she's the strong one'.

I just learned yesterday, that in psychoanalysis, egosyntonic refers to the behaviors, values, and feelings that are in harmony with or acceptable to the needs and goals of the ego, or consistent with one's ideal self-image. Egodystonic is the opposite, referring to thoughts and behaviors (dreams, compulsions, desires, etc.) that are in conflict, or dissonant, with the needs and goals of the ego, or, further, in conflict with a person's ideal self-image. (Wikipedia)

And I've found out that I'm egosyntonic about my anxiety and depression. I don't think it's the real me, so I wanna do something about it. Also, so I don't blame others for my anxiety and depression. And I'm really used to trust people in therapy, so I'm totally honest about all my problems. But I can now see, that my uBPD-sister absolutely is egodystonic! She's 100 percent sure nothing is wrong with her. So she wouldn't even contact a doctor or go into therapy. She's just so tired and stressed out that everyone she's working with and her family are SO WRONG about everything she values and thinks.

Can you see where the rumination comes into the picture her? If we are empaths and we are egosyntic and therefore attend therapy, we are so used to fix and change things that doesn't work. And it's about the most precious things we have in life, our family, of course we want to do everything in our power change the relationship into something better. That's where my rumination appeared, thinking 'the most be something I can change, something I've overseen, some misunderstanding that I can fix' because that's what I would do in every other relationship, problems with colleagues, girlfriend, kids etc. Talk it out, find out where we go wrong and fixing it, hopefully meet on the half way.  But how can you convince a sister who is egodystonic - she believes 100% she's right and behaving normal - that we have to compromise? She won't do it.

And it's only these weeks, I'm first realizing - after 30 years of problems and disagreements with her - that we see the world completely different. I have to accept that now. Because the only compromise there is, is my shutting up when she says cruel things, roll eyes like a teenager or give me a snarky laugh. And I've found out that exact that behavior makes my anxiety explode. I'm nervous before a family dinner with her, and even if I should be so lucky that she's in a good mood, my dinner is ruined because I expected the worst things to happen. And sometime the will, when she has no more energy to put into her smiling face.

So I must admit, that even though sister punished me this time with NC, I can't be any other way. I just can't get along with her. I've literally given up. If I ever should wanna go contact with her again, I would demand that a psychologist supported us, and I know she wouldn't accept that. She thinks psychologist only purpose is to agree with her and make the other person see that. That's what happened it her last marriage. When she found out after one session that there had to be a compromise here, she didn't wanna go anymore. They got divorced a couple of months later.

Again, I have to say to myself. She's been divorced twice. Always with great drama. She has had several full time jobs, but never - never - one where she didn't hated to be because she found one or two persons she disagreed with and only felt she could work properly if they were sacked.

Why would my sister compromise in a relationship with me, when she acts like that? I can't tell. Of course she wouldn't.

But if you asked me - or yourself - I'm pretty sure we would both do almost anything in the world to have the good relationship with our sister?

I'm still ruminating. And I guess I will be for a long time. But I'm also grieving, as of today. And I think it's the realization of letting her go. Letting sister go. If feels so wrong just writing it here. But I don't have a mental health to cope with her games. And I'm really heartbroken when I hear that snarky laugh, knowing that is what meant for me. I ask myself why a sister age 51 can act like a 13 year old. And I get no answer.

Actually, I've been feeling so furious lately, because why why why WHY won't she compromise and look at herself, so that we can keep a good brother-sister relationship? Because she is the only one I can have that with. She's my one and only sibling. And why why why did she have to trigger me with so many patronizing comments about me, that I too became very furious (And I only get that furious about every 5th year), so we had to go NC in such a hateful way. It's nothing I do with other people. And with family it feels especially wrong. To me.

My textbook from my psychologist says, that when we ruminate about others with  psychiatric problems, we often:

- feel that we have to get a long, either because we feel like the responsible sibling or maybe because we feel guilt. (even though we couldn't have done anything better)

- think we have to change the reality. That the reality actually is changeable.

- think we just need to learn about a psychological tool, we can use to fix the relationship.

- deny that there could actually be psychiatric traits running in our family, that could cause all that pain and frustration.

- don't wanna go through the grieving. (We stay in the pain and can't let go of it).


The textbook also says:

We have different strategies to keep the reality away:

- We wont take our feelings in and listen to them - instead we should stop: an switch to being-mode. Be in our feelings.

- We don't want to work with the grieving process. Instead of grieving.

- We want things to be different: Instead of accepting things as they are.

- We want to be in doing-mode. We're acting. Instead we should be in being-mode (because there is nothing we can do).



Those sentences helps me sometimes. But I'm really frustrated that the grieving is this tough. It was really insane for me today - so sad, cried so many hours. So I actually understand very well, why we rather would be ruminating than going through a grieving process. To me it still makes sense ruminating - just not about the relationship with my sister, but with everything else where I can find solutions and ways to compromise with people who are motivated for compromising. So I totally get it, why my brain still won't stop ruminating about sister. But I must admit now, that it is more painful keep ruminating. I really have to go through the grieving and then use my energy with all the nice and sweet people who actually likes me for the one I am, and where I can say my opinions out loud, without fear for reactions.


I don't know if you're still reading. Maybe you can use some of it. I wish you all the best.    Snoopy

[No-One]

I am actually working with the same questions as you, as of today where it just became too much and I had to cry for several hours and call a help line.

Hi Snoopy:

I'm glad you reached out and called a helpline.  It can really help to talk to someone. I think it can be harder to deal with, when the other person initiates the "no contact".  

I can hear how heartbreaking the situation with you sister is for you. One thing to consider is that part of the reason/cause of your depression could be genetic.  Many of us can have a genetic predisposition for depression and/or anxiety, by nature of our brain chemistry and/or wiring. Some people might fight anxiety and depression throughout their entire life.  Others might have occasional episodes. While some others might just hit a point in life when it sets in.

Just a possible angle to consider, that the situation with your sister might be just a portion of the root cause of your anxiety and depression.

Best Wishes.

[Snoopy737]

Thanks No-One.

Yeah, I know: It runs in the family. And I'm aware of it, because grandma had depressions. But I get great help with that now, so I can check that box. But really nice of you to remind me, because there is 'exciting stuff' running in the family. I just don't know why sis doesn't see that.

All best Snoopy737

[LeneLu]

Snoopy,

Thanks for sharing your story. It sounds like we are on parallel lines.  I am naturally a worrier.  I have had bouts of depression, treated medically, but they are situational.  And, this is one of those situations. 

I totally understand your question about why your sis would treat you that way, being family and all.  It feels like I was never really valued by her to begin with.  As she has told me "I am 53 and not changing for you."  If not me, then who?  She is not married, has no kids and my brother (an MD) tolerates her at best.  Who else is there? You would think just that from even the most selfish motives, she would keep her relationship with me on an even keel... .I don't know who is going to be there for her in the end. 

I, too, have had support among some of my family members (though not my mother who also has BPD traits... .I think if genetically comes from my uBPD grandmother).  They know who and what she is, but she won't believe it.  It is me... .I am the problem. And, the fact that I am in therapy is evidence of that to her and some sort of admission on my part.  It is unbelievable the amount of time and energy we non-BPDs put into resolving this and they just get to move on like nothing... .I totally resent that aspect of this disorder.

I really am not mourning my relationship with her, but I don't want bad blood either. The rest of my family will never go NC with her, so I eventually will have to see her. And, of course, she has been on her best behavior with them since this incident with me.  How long can she keep that up?

[Sibs]

Snoopy,

Thanks for sharing your story. It sounds like we are on parallel lines.  I am naturally a worrier.  I have had bouts of depression, treated medically, but they are situational.  And, this is one of those situations. 

I totally understand your question about why your sis would treat you that way, being family and all.  It feels like I was never really valued by her to begin with.  As she has told me "I am 53 and not changing for you."  If not me, then who?  She is not married, has no kids and my brother (an MD) tolerates her at best.  Who else is there? You would think just that from even the most selfish motives, she would keep her relationship with me on an even keel... .I don't know who is going to be there for her in the end. 

I, too, have had support among some of my family members (though not my mother who also has BPD traits... .I think if genetically comes from my uBPD grandmother).  They know who and what she is, but she won't believe it.  It is me... .I am the problem. And, the fact that I am in therapy is evidence of that to her and some sort of admission on my part.  It is unbelievable the amount of time and energy we non-BPDs put into resolving this and they just get to move on like nothing... .I totally resent that aspect of this disorder.

I really am not mourning my relationship with her, but I don't want bad blood either. The rest of my family will never go NC with her, so I eventually will have to see her. And, of course, she has been on her best behavior with them since this incident with me.  How long can she keep that up?

It is unbelievable the amount of time and energy we non-BPDs put into resolving this and they just get to move on like nothing... .I totally resent that aspect of this disorder.

This really resonated with me. To me, that is RUMINATION- I get obsessed with my sister's bad behavior and my dad's complete denial and I go over and over the latest episode which caused me pain.

[BabySister]

Hi, this part resonated with me, "In my head, I literally heard my uBPDsis, as if she were sitting right there, ridiculing me with a snarky laugh, for asking for help with it, suggesting I was being "lazy" (something she has called me before)."

I can only say for myself that sometimes all the nasty, accusatory statements my pwBPD has said, gets inside of me. It doesn't just go in one ear and out other the other. Also, in your original post, you mentioned people wondering why you spend so much time thinking about your sister. I have heard the same from close friends and family. It's because you care and like me, maybe your an optimist thinking you can fix the situation somehow. Thinking about it over and over, discussing it in circles. I had a social worker tell me today, you can only change yourself. We can't fix it, we didn't cause it. It's really difficult having your sibling who knows you best in the world practically say such horrible mean things. I've come to realize it could be anyone on the receiving end of the anger. It's not just reserved for me.
 

[Sibs]

I ruminate so much! I'm better then I used to be and can let go faster but I think it's because the behavior of my sister and the lack of response of my father is just mind boggling. Now that I have more understanding and my life is in a more solid place, I do not ruminate AS MUCH but that said, whenever there is a fresh episode, I am back in that place of obsession and shock and pain and disbelief and desire to make everyone around me understand the craziness in my life. And only my therapist, and my friend who is a social worker who understands BPD can really 'hear' me. And this forum is great too!

[Inner Child]

I ruminate about how to handle situations real and imagined hypothetical situations with my uBPD mom. I think that I do this because I have suffered so much from her that it is a self defense mechanism. I am ruminating about ways that I will set boundaries to keep her from hurting me. I ruminate to the point of causing myself anxiety. So, it helps me to write down my fear and my solution. For example, I am afraid that she will start harshly criticizing me at the restaurant so I will bring my own car so I can excuse myself at any moment (I have done this by the way... .just said that's enough and gone home.) I have to write it down because if I don't it spins into anxiety producing rumination that does a diservice to me. It also helps to to keep repeating... ."I have all that I need today." so much of my rumination is how I will handle tomorrow with her that re-focussing on today really settles my nervous system.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Leenlou, 

This topic has been a great one to get us all thinking about thinkingness! (I tend to make up words sometimes as the other members may know. 

Rumination: According to dictionary.com,

1.
a deep or considered thought about something.
"philosophical ruminations about life and humanity"
2.
the action of chewing the cud.
"cows slow down their rumination"

Since I grew up on a farm, I know that cows ruminate to break down the food more and more and find it easier to digest and process. Llamas do it too, just saying... .

So with that thought in mind, let's break down why we adult kids of a pw BPD ruminate. I think that you must consider that it isn't just us adult kids of pwBPD who do this. Anyone who is in the process of learning and growing will probably have ruminating thoughts. It's not a bad thing; it just is. Can we ruminate too much? Yes, too much of anything isn't good when it becomes controlling.

Do you tend to view ruminating as a positive or negative? When I went back to college in my mid 40's, I began to challenge my brain to learn. When I graduated, my mind was still hungry to learn and it didn't want to stop. It was as if I had unlocked the learning center in my brain that had been closed for many many years. I began to ask questions and then I started in T. Sometimes people asked me why I kept thinking on my childhood, but they didn't understand that I had to go back in order to go forwards in my growing and healing and learning. Is that how you feel sometimes?

 
Wools

[LeneLu]

Inner Child--
Yes, I ruminate about potential conversations and how they will go (which of course no matter how much I do this, they will never really be the way I imagined).  I think about what I would like to say. 

Woolspinner,
I wish I could say it was positive, but, like Inner child, it pulls me down with a lot of anxiety (and I loose weight).  I don't think clearly during these phases and feel insecure about my role. "Am I doing the right thing?" "Will my child ever  forgive me for going NC?" "Why did I bring this up?"  But then I look back and don't know how I would have handled it otherwise.  I wish there was a clinical term for this "break" that we all have seemed to experienced... .the last straw that we as non-BPD say, "no more".  I know it is extinction burst for them, but what is it for us?

[Harri]

Hi.  Have you read through the links No_One posted?  You may find some insight and some ways to work through the rumination. 

You can also try practicing Mindfulness which is good for emotional management as well as thought management.  Ruminating is common with depression and anxiety and Mindfulness can be helpful with both.

If ruminating is a common trait among non-BPDs, why?  What is it about being the recipient of BPD behavior that makes non-BPDs respond that way?  Is it just that we are searching and searching for some rationale to their behavior? Are we trying to uncover a reason that isn't there?

I am not sure really.  I would guess that it is something within us rather than something coming from the pwBPD that causes us to ruminate.  As I mentioned above it is associated with depression and anxiety and both of those are common among people raised by or with a pwBPD.  Many of us are going to be driven to find a solution, re-examine what happened, replay what did happen.  They all fit together IMO.

But then I look back and don't know how I would have handled it otherwise.

  The biggest cause is, I think, found in what you wrote in this quote.  We have to come to a point of trusting our gut, believing in our perceptions and our perceptions of what happened.  Being raised around or by a disordered person we are forced to question ourselves and to doubt our perceptions and thoughts because to do so would cause all sorts of conflict, not just externally with our family, but internally as well.  Combine this with the depression and anxiety I talked about above and it seems a perfect recipe for depressive rumination.

We have to learn to trust ourselves.  I am not quite sure how to do that, but maybe we can come up with some ideas.  A person who trusts themselves and their ow decisions does not sit around questioning and constantly reviewing their actions or how a situation played out do they?

How do we build/re-build trust of Self?

[Learning2Thrive]

Harri wrote:

We have to learn to trust ourselves.  I am not quite sure how to do that, but maybe we can come up with some ideas.  A person who trusts themselves and their ow decisions does not sit around questioning and constantly reviewing their actions or how a situation played out do they?

How do we build/re-build trust of Self?

Yes x 10,000, Harri!   

This is exactly what I am struggling with right now.  I’m doing several things, but 2 new things I recently started:

1. Riding one of those huge fat tire mountain bikes and exploring dirt roads and trails on my own. I’ve ridden a road bike for years, but riding this new bike on trails is entirely different. And sometimes it is absolutely  terrifying for me. Trail and dirt road conditions can change rapidly and dramatically. I have had to make myself get comfortable with being uncomfortable — with making a decision quickly and adjusting if needed.  For me, this is a physical challenge that parallels the emotional ones I struggle with. The more I build my confidence in decision making on my new bike, the more confidence I have in myself in all other areas of my life.

2. Ask for specific help (from appropriate, healthy individuals)when I need it.

Great topic and excellent thoughts from all who have shared.

[Harri]

Hi L2T.  What a great way to both challenge yourself and learn to trust your decisions, your skills and that you will be okay!

My T has been working on this with me.  Getting me to step out of my comfort zone and just take a leap.  Simple stuff for me but as I do take risks the confidence and trust I build in myself carries over into other areas. 

I think back to a period in my life maybe a year and a half after I had finally moved out of my parents house.  I was in a good place emotionally.  I felt empowered when i said no to my mother, establishing boundaries, refusing to cave in, working on separating myself emotionally.  I was in a good place with my now exbf and things were going so well at work and I actually had a social life (not huge but I had one!).  Things would happen but I did not ruminate like I did at other times in my life when I was overcome with depression or anxiety... .or was just feeling beaten down by life.  I was able to separate emotionally from any situation that would have had me endlessly ruminating.  The difference?  I felt confident in myself.  I trusted myself to be able to handle anything at that time.

That time did not last because I was still on a faulty foundation.  But I know I can get there again with more hard work by on my own, here and in T.  And this time around I have a feeling the lessons will stick better though i expect that I will have to be always vigilant. 

What else do others do?  Or what can you think of?

[Panda39]

I ruminate when I have what is or feels like is an unsolvable problem.  The thoughts just rattle around and around in my head 

When this involves a person with BPD I find that I want to control and I can't control, but yet I am still looking for a way to control.  What I have learned from being here is that I can't control my SO's uBPDxw and what she does, or my SO, or their kids, I can only control me and what I do.  What helps me is recognizing that I am ruminating (mindfulness) and bringing myself back to the present... .stop ruminating on something that happened in the past (it's done, it's over) and stop worrying about the future (something that hasn't happened yet) be in the now. 

Another tool that helps me with this is journaling write the thoughts down, get them out of my head, put them some place that I can look at them later if I want to (usually with some distance or perspective or maybe even a fresh idea). Often times the thoughts go in the journal never to be seen again. 

There is also coming here and posting... .gets it out of your head, gives it to a collective mind with lots of different experiences, and points of view, give it to the group and let us mull it over for awhile. 

Panda39

[Learning2Thrive]

Harri, you have come so far and you have inspired me and many others. I admire the awesome effort and work you have put in and continue to put in. I agree with your comment on vigilance... .and I will get back to that in a moment.

Panda, those are excellent ideas. I know I need to start journaling and that it would help me. I just realized why I have always avoided it. uNPD mom would snoop and violate any privacy I sought. We were never allowed to lock a bathroom or bedroom door. So... .welll... .a private journal when found was a weapon used by her to destroy any sense of self. Telling me (or sibs) we were making up lies, that she should just go give us to child services where we would certainly be split up and be put in a foster home with a molester man.  Yikes—that was a big memory this morning.

Vigilance—I think I want to sit with those thoughts a bit more and perhaps start a new thread.

Sending you all genuine smiles, gentle hugs (but only if you want them) and positive energy. Today is filled with possibility and I need to go ride.

[Angie59]

Hello LeenLou!

I have been on this board since March - so many great helpful people on here!  Also so many resources available as well.

I unfortunately do not have any quick fixes or answers for myself at this point for my rumination - and I am a professional ruminator, I can tell you that!

My son's uBPD girlfriend and he have a child together.  He is our first and only grandbaby and we love him so I cannot even put it into words!  There is his sister in the picture (who is not biologically our granddaughter, though we love her as she has been in our life since she was 5 months old and is now 4).

I used to ruminate all the time about how to make my son's uBPD girlfriend like me better, what can I do to become closer to her, going over and over in my mind my actions and words to see why she is acting distant toward me.  I fortunately have given all of that up and decided that just being civil with her is enough.  Her moods are not my fault, nor is any of her other actions or behaviors.  I hate that it has to be this way, but I can see that clearly now.

However, my ruminations have now switched over to our grandchild.  He is 2 years old (GS2) and he is being bullied unbelievably by GD4.  No one is doing anything to stop this and it is breaking my heart to see him treated this way.  No, I didn't cause it.  No, I can't cure it, and I can't control it.  Sound familiar?  Although it is so true, I still have yet to have it help me and it is really kind of scary.  I believe so much in the Serenity Prayer and I cannot get it to help me with this.

All I can see and think of is an innocent 2-year-old little boy being bullied so badly by his 4-year-old sister and no one is doing anything about it.  Lately he does not ask to go outside as he usually always does when my husband and I are there babysitting him every Thursday and Friday.  He is not at all interested in riding his new tricycle because I found out from my son that his sister pushes his off of it, he cries, and it gets put up because my son "doesn't want to fight with her."  So GS2 gets punished for GD4's bad behavior? 

Yes, I certainly understand rumination LeenLou.  I wish so badly I had a magic answer for you but I don't.  I am still in the throes of it.  I just wanted to let you know how much I understand your battle with rumination over your sister and that you are certainly not alone in all of this.  I hope you keep posting.   

[zachira]

I find it helps to get more into my body and out of my head to stop the ruminating. I once was traveling in a country where hardly anybody spoke English, and I badly spoke the native language. I was basically communicating with people at a childlike level: lots of nonverbal communication and simple thoughts about the here and now needs. I felt so much joy, as if I had become a small child again, and I was getting the validation I did not get in childhood.
We can get into our bodies and out of our heads in many ways: by noticing how we are experiencing the five senses, by moving our bodies in unfamiliar ways, and by accepting and/or giving affectionate touch. The challenge is to process the uncomfortable feelings that come up when we experience more of the felt sense in our bodies. I find quietly sitting with my feelings, letting them pass as no feeling lasts forever, is what leads me to a more calm grounded state.
How do you get out of your head and into your body to experience more calm and joy, while turning down the rumination?

[Panda39]

How do you get out of your head and into your body to experience more calm and joy, while turning down the rumination?

zachira,

Yes!  I actually find this place when I am quilting.  I'm focused on the task at hand, and doing something I enjoy... .I am in the "now".  Add a little music and I'm in my happy place. 

Panda39

[LeneLu]

Funny... .I do find that when I am preoccupied with things I enjoy, I tend to ruminate less.  Thank you all for making me take the time to reflect on this and giving me example of this realization in your own lives.

However, I think Harri really hit it on the head regarding trusting ourselves! I replay and replay in my head the movie of what (I think) happened to see if I got something wrong somewhere along the line.  I have to finally realize that what happened was not right, normal or acceptable.

The other day, I was talking to my brother and reminded him of an incident where my uBPDsis freaked out on him about something.  He DIDN'T even remember it.  Because, he trusts and has confidence in his perceptions.  He doesn't take it personally, doesn't change in response to her criticism and of course that pisses her off even more.  It feeds the cycle of feeling un-considered and abandoned. So, it doesn't help the larger dynamic, but he didn't cause it either.

[Panda39]

However, I think Harri really hit it on the head regarding trusting ourselves! I replay and replay in my head the movie of what (I think) happened to see if I got something wrong somewhere along the line.  I have to finally realize that what happened was not right, normal or acceptable.

I know the chaos and confusion someone with BPD can cause especially when that big FOG machine (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) is blowing and gaslighting is happening but a couple of things to think about... .

Why the assumption you did something wrong? You have a mentally ill sister with dysfunctional behaviors why automatically assume it's you that got something wrong? Try some radical acceptance here what if there is no blaming... .no blaming yourself and no blaming her.  You both are who you are and are both functioning in the way that you know how and often it just doesn't work well.

This doesn't mean that you can't try some new tools that maybe make the situation better but try to accept what currently is... .just is.

Panda39

[Harri]

Why the assumption you did something wrong? You have a mentally ill sister with dysfunctional behaviors why automatically assume it's you that got something wrong? Try some radical acceptance here what if there is no blaming... .no blaming yourself and no blaming her.  You both are who you are and are both functioning in the way that you know how and often it just doesn't work well.

Panda, leave it to you to get right to the heart of this.  Breaking the ingrained assumptions that we can fix this is so necessary and is, I think, a pre-requisit to learning to trust ourselves.  Knowing we did what we thought is right and being confident in that is so important. 

So much great info in this thread! 

[Kermit]

Rumination is one of the hardest patterns for me to break. The situation is always a slow build up. She starts harassing me about where I've been, what's wrong with me, why I don't treat her better, etc. and then she hangs up the phone and goes NC for a few months. It is devastating to me each time it happens. Then I b

[LeneLu]

Harri,

That is the question and it leads back to trusting ones self.  Why do I trust her judgement more than my own?  Well, because I have been influenced and manipulated to do so.  The good thing is that I finally recognize it and deal with it now.

[Panda39]

Well, because I have been influenced and manipulated to do so.  The good thing is that I finally recognize it and deal with it now.

Knowledge is power    Recognizing the dynamic behind your interactions with your sister will help. Though everything can feel chaotic when you have someone with BPD/BPD traits in your life there are actually patterns of behavior that when you are paying attention you can see.  Knowing/recognizing FOG when it's happening, recognizing projection, or gaslighting or when you are JADING or being invalidating... .again tied to mindfulness. Seeing the dysfunction for what it is.

I have to be mindful around my mother, I describe it like being in the conversation with her and being an observer.  I get a critical remark I don't take it personally anymore. I know when she does this it's about her and how she thinks I will reflect on her.  I no longer take her criticism personally and see it for what it is.

Next time you have a situation with your sister... .imagine yourself sitting on a park bench people watching.  Watch the two of you, what do you see as the observer?  Who is being rational?  Is anyone yelling?  Is anyone feeding conflict?  Is there FOG (Fear, Obligation Guilt)?  Is there JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain)? See if observing in this way allows you to notice anything new.

I'm also curious do you trust your own judgment with others or in other situations or is this specifically around your relationship with your sister?

Panda39