BPD Fiance & Mother fighting: what should I do?

[raiano18]

This is my second post on bpdfamily. My fiancé and I have been together for a year and a half, and she has BPD, along with depression & anxiety. We have had many disagreements. I am constantly being accused of cheating, not caring, being sneaky, lying, choosing my feelings over hers and choosing others over her. Much much more too. Currently, we are stuck. She hates my mom. She accuses her of trying to split us up, taking control of our relationship, and being my "boss". Which is all so far from the truth. They used to have a good relationship! Up until our daughter was born. She refuses to let my mom watch the baby because she doesn't trust her. She has no reason not to trust her. She threatens me with the baby, as in "If you let your mom watch the baby when im at work, ill kill you". She is verbally abusive, and has hit me in the past. She gets angry when my mom comes around, or if I take the baby to visit my mom. She gets angry, tells me she hates me and is leaving me, then is back to normal the next day. I have to resolve this issue ASAP. It has been going on since May. My mother is hurt, and so am I. What should I do?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[raiano18]

Any suggestions?

[livednlearned]

When your wife is back to normal and emotionally regulated, is it possible to talk about your mom without your wife becoming triggered?

When she is emotionally regulated, that can also be a good time to validate her parenting skills so she is less insecure -- the insecurity might be what's fueling some of the anger toward your mom.

It doesn't make rational sense, but based on emotional logic, she is a new, exhausted, inexperienced mama. Your mom may represent a threat because she knows more, and your wife has such a weak sense of self she cannot differentiate between your mom trying to help and your mom trying to control her.

Another thing that can happen for new moms is that 9 months people paid a lot of attention to her. Now the baby is here and it's like new moms become invisible, with all the attention going toward the baby. A non-BPD mom can feel the shift, so I imagine a BPD mom feels it even more so.

This doesn't absolve her of her bad behavior toward you or your mom. Sometimes tho we have to figure out what is fueling these bad behaviors so we can adjust ours, in the hopes that our responses (or absence of them) prevent things from getting worse.

It sounds like your mom does get to see the baby, which is good    What happens when she comes to the house and your wife is there? (if that happens)

[isilme]

When dealing with BPD, the burden of change lies with those who are more emotionally stable and regulated.

You AND your mom have to pick up the slack your F cannot.  She just can't at this time.  Imagine her being wheelchair bound as a metaphor for her emotional disability.  Now - you just asked her to run a 50-meter dash.  Asking a person with BPD to emotionally regulate is about the same type of request.

This is not to give her a pass.  She CAN learn to re-route those emotional pathways, but she needs to be in a mindset of calm and trust, not fear and anger.  You need to get past the crisis by slowly setting boundaries that you can enforce, and showing her, not telling her, that you can leave during a fight and come back, that you are not abandoning her, that your mom wants the best for your family and is not the boogeyman.

Your mom needs a bit of a crash course in BPD I think.  She needs to insulate her feelings against the barrage from your F.  She needs to not have that bridge burned now because you will want the mother of your child and your mom to get along as well as possible. 

It might help if you can explain it to your mom, that your F went through something unknown sometime in her life that has left her emotionally disabled, likely before her memories are even really solid.  She is so insecure she can't even know it.  She can be like a wounded animal, trying to bite the hands trying to help her, and can't see it, yet.  Things CAN get better, and your F is someone you love, but explain to your mom that your mom has been painted black.  What that means, how it is going to take TIME and LOVE to SHOW your F, not tell her, that your mom is not the enemy. 

Your F sees your mom as competition for love, as if you have a finite amount.  She sees her as a challenge because she's already raised, children.  And, yes, pwBPD will use children as tools to make you feel as bad as they feel on the inside. 

They used to have a good relationship! Up until our daughter was born

Livedandlearned has a lot of good input here.  Also, let me add that my SIL used to see like the most put together person I knew.  Her brother, my H, had issues and so does the little brother, but she seemed like she had all of the emotional issues that run in the family beat.

Then.  She got pregnant, had a miscarriage, got pregnant, had a healthy baby girl.  All went out the window then.  She became VERY irrational.  She got mad we could not babysit ONE time when the baby was 6 months old, and has never asked since.  She started a fight with H during Thanksgiving, holding the baby as a shield.  She was very messed up by pregnancy, the miscarriage, and hyper protectiveness of the baby (now almost 10).  She would not put the baby down, even to take out the trash, cook dinner, and had the infant so used to her she'd cry when her father tried to watch her - meaning she never got much of a break.  Her husband had to escort her out of Baby depot once because they did not have something in stock and she had a BPD-type melt down.  She had one more child, unplanned, almost as soon as you can, and her hormones were still a mess.  she nursed, keeping those hormones messed up.  Now, 9.5 years later, she is "almost" back to her self.  Basically, she DID have better outward control.  I see now, just by watching more closely, her husband has been filling the same role I do, just as a man he has other ways to go about it.  The hormonal changes took away her thin covering keeping her BPD from showing. 

Please look and see if your F's hormones are a part of her feelings.  BPD makes the feelings hard to regulate, and hormones can make it impossible.  And each person is different.  Some ladies can have kid after kid and be fine.  Some have one and it triggers all sorts of insecurities.  She may not feel pretty anymore - so you're going to cheat and leave her.  She may feel physically different, her body just stretched all manner of ways - the damage pregnancy does is not really mentioned in the movies, like bleeding for weeks after birth. 

So - compassion, validation for things that are valid, and taking breaks when the crazy starts, and telling your mom you both need to meet the ugly side with love, and empathy.  If we react in anger, we are playing BPD's game.  If we don't, it gets confused, and THEN we can work on making changes. 

[raiano18]

When she is in a good mood, I do bring my mom up, she doesn't say much but will acknowledge what im saying. I try not to do it too much though, for fear of making her react. My mom gets to see the baby like once a week. Which isn't enough for her, and I don't blame her. At first my mom would come over and my fiancé would stay in the bedroom. That made my mom feel uncomfortable, so now she wont come around if my fiancé is home. Its really hurting my mom, and me. Im trying to look for a way to fix the issue fast. Theres so many things I want to talk to my fiancé about, but I know how the conversation will end. Sadly, the more and more this goes on, the less and less I want to stay with her. If we didn't have a daughter together, I probably would've left by now. Im constantly stressed and so unhappy.

[isilme]

Theres so many things I want to talk to my fiancé about, but I know how the conversation will end

A conversation is not going to "fix" this.  Just need to say that.  You, your mom, both need to work on BPD-effective types of communication, including non-verbal things.  Actions seem o speak better to my H than words.  Word just start fights,a dn you will likely fall into JADEing.

This is not an afternoon special where you can solve things with just the right conversation, the right words, and all will be well, and everyone will understand each other.  This is a thing we are taught to believe as early as kindergarten, that if people just understood each other perfectly there would be no hurt feelings or fights - and maybe in a perfect world where humans are no longer human, this could be true - but we don't live in the Twilight Zone, we live here, and people are flawed and feelings get hurt, and BPD magnifies those feelings.

I would like to ask how seeing the baby once a week is not enough for your mom - just asking because some grandparents can't even see their grandkids once a year.  Once a week seems good for a new family learning to care for their baby - too much visiting, unless you need extra help with childcare for work or to run errands, and yes, it COULD seem grandma is trying to run the show.  To be blunt, grandma has no "right" to the baby, it's a privilege she is lucky to have.  It's your baby, and your F's baby.  And maybe that is a boundary your F feels is not being respected.  I am not bashing your mom, or ayin she is doing anything wrong, but it can be hard for almost-mothers-in-law to find a balance of where to stand with regards to their son's households. 

Not quite the same, but here's an illustration of what I mean.  So, we have a friend we despaired of ever finding a nice lady and settling down.  He found a string of women who used him for free dinners and concerts and stuff for their kids, but they'd drop him the minute some jerk booty-called them.  This friend had us over so often I knew his whole kitchen like ours.  I'd cook there when we'd have BBQs and he had no qualms about me rummaging in drawers to find knives or spoons or bowls.

BUT - then he found a really nice lady.  She was respectful of him, treated him well, and things seemed serious (they got married shortly after, have 2 kids now ).  He had one of his normal BBQs.  I felt it would be odd if I rummaged around the kitchen like it was MINE in front of her, so I made sure to ask her if she could help me find things, as the prospective woman of the house.  I was SHOWING her, not telling her, respect for her as a woman dating my friend, and letting her feel her place as the lady of the house, and did my best to not usurp that. 

What roles does your mom play in your lives?  How often before the baby was she over?  Did she just visit, or was she here to help with things?  How does she act at your home, and can it be dialed back a bit to get your F used to the idea grandma is just being the grandma, not trying to take her place as a mom, or boot her out?  How can you SHOW her, not TELL her? 

Validation is more than words. 

[raiano18]

What roles does your mom play in your lives?  How often before the baby was she over?  Did she just visit, or was she here to help with things?  How does she act at your home, and can it be dialed back a bit to get your F used to the idea grandma is just being the grandma, not trying to take her place as a mom, or boot her out?  How can you SHOW her, not TELL her? 

Validation is more than words. 

Me and my mom have always been close. She was a young mother, and my father wasn't around too much until I was about 8, so my mother raised me, alone. My F was very close to my mother, up until the baby was born. They were more like friends that daughter-in-law/mother-in-law. Before the baby was born I would say she came over once or twice a week, but we'd go to her house once or twice a week also. That was my mother & F's doings, not mine. She came and helped put the nursery together, which my F asked her to do, and after the baby was born she'd come to help out and visit. Not anymore.

[raiano18]

I have also noticed she gives me ZERO attention anymore. No kissing, hugs, sex, not even a "how was your day?"

[WileyCoyote]

I have also noticed she gives me ZERO attention anymore. No kissing, hugs, sex, not even a "how was your day?"

Hi raiano18

I can totally identify with this. I am running out the door from work but I will be back later to add my 2 cents.

[WileyCoyote]

livednlearned and  isilme are giving you some great info here.  Their female perspective on motherhood and what might be going on is very valuable here.

As a semi new father with an udwBPD wife I can relate to this, but not necessarily with the MIL stuff.  Just in general, I had to be really careful about how I offered help to my wife.  She started taking it as an insult and eventually broke and said "you think I am a horrible Mom!"

So consider this... .Your mom and your F had an interaction you didn't witness that your F misinterpreted as a threat to her mothering.  Or it could just be an accumulation of a lot of small interactions where your Mom is helping that added up to her feeling inadequate and as a result feeling shame. It could be something you would see as completely innocent but your F feels threatened.  You might never know.  Or it could be connected to the whole "I can't trust your mom" thing.  

Maybe your F talked to your Mom about life plans/dreams for you two, or asked your Mom to back her up on something with you and she didn't.  She would see that as your Mom dismissing her wants and not being on her side, as well as your mom directing or being your "boss".  Be careful here as this could be the beginning of her alienating your family so she can have you all to herself.

Have you asked her why she doesn't trust your mom?

Have you two considered premarital counseling?  It could be helpful.  

As far as the physical affection lacking.
Something to consider here.  Are you giving her hugs and kisses?    it goes both ways.  Somebody has to be the one to break the pattern.  Why not you?

I know in my relationship my wife is the one who initiated sex most of the time throughout the beginning of the relationship.  Then she just stopped.  I felt put off, like she now disliked me (this behavior was accompanied by a lot of anger and nasty words on her part).   Turns out, she just decided one day that I should always be the one that initiated intimacy, and never told me.    How was I to know the dynamic had changed so suddenly?

Anyway, it might take time to get to the root of the matter.  Like others said, this is not a one time discussion fix.
In the meantime, what are you doing about the one thing you can control?  YOU
Have you considered individual counseling to examine how you can make changes for a healthier relationship?

[isilme]

Somebody has to be the one to break the pattern.  Why not you?

It has to be you.  Your F thinks she is telling you what needs to be fixed, but she has BPD and can't really think it through well.  Her needs and wants are very mixed up, and her skills at looking at the REAL problem (likely what Wilie stated - internal feelings of inadequacy in her parenting skills/future wife skills) versus assigning blame to something easier to yell about are making it hard for you and your mom to see what the real problem is.  You have more emotional skill, and therefore can look beyon her CLAIMS about what the problem is, and then act on the REAL, most likely issue. 

Here's the real problem.  Somehow, your F's internal feelings are making her insecure.  Her brain has decided it's primarily your mom's fault, and secondarily your fault that she feels this way.  Done.  This is how BPD works. 

It may or may not have anything to do with any you, your mom, have done, or have not done.  This can't be tackled from the "she's mad about X, so I will take care of X and all will be well," mindset.

The messed up emotions inside a pwBPD mean things make sense to them that will NEVER make full sense to us.  The emotional connections, reasons things happen, are very hard to comprehend from the outside, especially at first, and especially when the rage-event is taking place.  I've been watching H freak out for 22 years.  He still surprises me.  He will spend forever trying to determine whose fault something is, rather than just fix the problem, or admit it's no one's fault.

Our doorknob broke about 1.5 weeks ago.  We could not get into our house.  His main concern when he was yelling, was to make sure I knew it was my fault this was happening.  Not to fix it.  Not to gently remove the broken knob and replace it.  No.  He was angry, willing to mangle the door to show how angry he was, and to make sure I knew it was both my fault, and my job to get it fixed, and to conjure up a non-existent handyman to come make it happen. 

Here's what was really happening.  He freaked.  He did not know how to solve the problem.  He feared I'd think less of him for not knowing how to fix it, as a man, he was ashamed.  He worried our house had been tampered with, that this was evidence someone tried to break in, that we could not leave the house until a brand new door and lock set was installed. 

Instead of looking at it as a pain in the ass to fix, but doable, he needed to project all those feelings to me, to get them off him.  So, he made himself physically ill, ranted, raved, stomped about, and almost damaged the door enough we WOULD have needed to waste money and get a new one. I managed to not get too upset, to stay calm, and did my best to de-escalate things.  In a few hours, it worked. 

You and your mom are used to things.  You have taken it for granted your F was both okay with it, and would always be okay with it.  I really think some Postpartum type of emotions is affecting her.  I think she is scared about her mothering abilities, and ANY input form your mom, no matter how sound, or rational, is going to be seen as a challenge, a threat to your F as a mother, and will trigger her.  She is in mama bear mode.  She wants to protect her cub, it's hers and everyone else be damned.  It's not rational, so it can't be treated like it's rational, or like a rational answer exists.  It's an emotional answer from a rational person that is needed.

Also, while it may have been BFF fun time planning a nursey with your mom, now there is a tiny, real, little person who may not sleep all night, needs frequent diaper changes, and is hungry every 2-4 hours. 

This is now not a game, it's real.  pwBPD need more time to acclimate to real life challenges.  Their executive control is poor, they fear failure and so fear responsibility, or being watched, observed, and judged.  My H freaks out if he chooses the wrong shirt, and it can ruin his whole day, because he believes everyone else is noticing his shirt.  I tell him they don't care, but HE does, and that is projected onto the world. 

non-BPD moms I know are always worried they re being judged based on their kids.  One had a 3-year-old who refused to wear anything other than Disney nightgowns and hated potty training.  She felt like a failure of a mom because of it.  She is often mortified is her kids do normal kid things, or if they are behind their older cousins because she worries people are looking at her as a bad mom (the little girl is fine, she finally decided she was too big for diapers, and she will wear anything as long as she can add something pink).  And social media posts of super-moms just adds to this fear.  So, now, imagine those feelings with BPD?  Your F might feel insecure based on something as little as "is the baby wearing the best onsie?" 

Be kind.  Choose to not hear or respond to crazy accusations.  Ignore slights on your mom, or come up with a calm, canned response that does its best to validate her emotions but sets a boundary around abuse towards your mom.  Also, though, it might be time to set a boundary about your mom's involvement in your household as well.  It is YOUR house.  You are a grown man, with a fiance and child. 

Your mom's help is appreciated (by you at least), but her offers to help or watch the baby can very well sound like "your F is a bad mom, only I know how to take care of a baby.  Whatever she does is wrong, she's stupid, she's not good enough."  EVEN IF YOUR MOM NEVER THINKS OR SAYS THIS!  This has likely refrained in your F's mind, and THIS is what needs to be combated.  Instead of defending your mom, tell your F SHE is a good mom in her own right.  Tell her thanks for raising your child.  Tell her you like how she's handling no sleep, etc.  And yes, reach out to be consistently affectionate, even if she rebuffs it.  Hugs.  A gentle hand holding.  Simple ways to show, not tell, her that you love and care about her.

[WileyCoyote]

Isilme is right.  It HAS to be you. 

I was trying to slowly point you there, but it's true.

You could spend years in a stalemate.

Take some time and really let Isilme's posts sink in.  Read them more than once.  There is some very good advice in there!

Thanks Isilme!

[raiano18]

Wiley Coyote- She says she doesn't trust her because she "overfed" the baby. She fed her 5 ounces in 7 hours, which is totally normal. Especially with our baby . I have told her time and time again, you cannot overfeed a baby. I talked to her doctor about it. If she is hungry, she will eat, if she's not, she wont.
We have started going to couples counseling, yesterday was our 2nd session.
I do all the affection, I hug, kiss and lead everything. Sometimes I just wish she would for ONCE.
I am currently learning about BPD and informing others about it. I am keeping my mother and F separated until further notice (hoping things can eventually improve). Also, going to couples counseling and counseling alone every 2 weeks.

[raiano18]

  I really think some Postpartum type of emotions is affecting her.  I think she is scared about her mothering abilities, and ANY input form your mom, no matter how sound, or rational, is going to be seen as a challenge, a threat to your F as a mother, and will trigger her. 

I totally agree. She has postpartum depression in my opinion. She has battled depression her whole life, and it got much worse during and after her pregnancy. On top of it, HER MOTHER passed away during her pregnancy. I think this might have something to do with this too. I just don't understand why all these people can tell her how to do this or that and she'll listen to them, but when it comes to my mother, she's wrong and is trying to parent our daughter.

[WileyCoyote]

raiano18
Well, with the individual counseling and couples counseling you are started down a good path.  The fact you still give affection and are still YOU in the face of her behavior is great for both of you.

You said at one point

I just don't understand why all these people can tell her how to do this or that and she'll listen to them, but when it comes to my mother, she's wrong and is trying to parent our daughter.

People who are closest to a pwBPD are usually subject to the most problematic behavior.  And it sounds like she was pretty close to your mom.  You might also consider that your mom makes her think of her mom who passed and she could be having very complex emotions over this too.

Did she process her mom's passing well?  Did she show her emotions over this or did she seem to shutdown and have no emotions?

[whiplashed_mom]

My son could have written this before their child was born, but, months before he was born, udBPD dil made sure that we were no longer part of their lives. Got him to move, accuse of us of outrageous things, turn away from all of his friends. We have never seen or spoken to them since a month after they told us about the pregnancy. Others have told us that she was planning to keep us away from her baby even before she was pregnant. We were totally innocent, if I do say so myself. He has no contact with anyone that he knew before this happened, but his parents are the cause--so they wrote us.
If you didn't have a child, I'd plead for you to run!

[livednlearned]

The fact she will tolerate your mom being there, even if she stays in her room, means on some level she is managing to abide that relationship. What do you think is going on that she would have a beef with your mom, and then let her come over? It sounds like your mom is the one who is not able to tolerate the tension, is that accurate to say? It's interesting that she is somewhere between rejecting her and accepting her. Altho I would guess you pay a price every time your mom comes over?

Also, does she have body image issues? The overfeeding baby thing could be connected to her BPD inability to fully differentiate her own self from the baby. And I'm not actually sure that's strictly a BPD thing right after a baby is born. There is some stuff written about the "interbrain" between moms and babies that could make it even harder for someone with BPD to see the baby as separate.

[Radcliff]

I have to agree with Wiley, that livednlearned and isilme are spot-on here.  Having raised three kids with a uBPDw, I think agree with them that there are not only BPD issues, but potentially regular mother-in-law issues to contend with.  Think about what fears your F may have.  Her fears might not seem reasonable to you, but they are real to her.  Your F may need space to feel in control and safe with the new arrival.

You have a supertough challenge to make your mom feel welcome and not push her away to appease your F, but also understand that your F needs to feel like you support her and do not favor your mom.  I wonder if you might ask your mom about her experiences with her mother-in-law?  I know if your dad wasn't part of the picture, that might be a tough topic.  Have you talked with your mom about the balancing act you need to do?  Do you think she'd appreciate it, or would it be a tough topic for her?  I wonder if you ask her, if she might offer some wisdom.

What fears do you think your F may have, and how might you ease them?

WW

[raiano18]

Did she process her mom's passing well?  Did she show her emotions over this or did she seem to shutdown and have no emotions?

She says me and my mother didn't let her grieve her mothers death. Which is not true. I don't really understand why she says that or feels that way. She was off work for 6 months, even when we struggled with money, I never told her to get out of bed and back to work. I was there while her mother was sick, helping take care of her, helped with the funeral and helped with the family. I went above and beyond. Not to mention, my mother had food, a card with money and a gift sent to the funeral home.

[isilme]

You might also consider that your mom makes her think of her mom who passed and she could be having very complex emotions over this too.

Yes - I did not realize her own mother had passed.  I bet she may feel some sort of guilt over being close to your mom when hers is gone.  Like it's a betrayal, or choosing one over the other.  Remember, this is not based on logic.  It's pure emotions, and she is not even consciously aware of much of it, just the surface of how she feels.

She says me and my mother didn't let her grieve her mother's death. Which is not true

^^ The first part is her feelings.  The second part is YOUR facts, not hers.  It's not about you.  Remember that.  Say it in your head when she makes these statements:  "It's not about me.  It's about her, and her feelings."

Read it more this way:

"I am not over my mom and feel like I need to grieve more.  Since I feel bad, guilty, loss and all feelings associated with the death of a loved one, and can't accept that my feelings are mine to own, I need to blame you for my having them.  "

Also, grief, a history of depression issues, and postpartum, I think for a pwBPD she might actually be doing what she feels is her best.

When she makes statements about not having enough time to grieve - how do you respond?  The statement you put in your last post is very much a JADE example.  "But I DID let you grieve, look at me Justify, Argue, Defend, and explain how." 

This is just telling her that her FEELINGS are wrong.  But her FEELINGS are her reality.  Validating her FEELINGS is going to go a long way.  "I know you still feel grief.  It's okay.  Greif comes in waves, it never fully goes away, it just gets to feel less of sting over time.  Talk to me about something you like to remember about your mom/I'm sorry your mom won't get to know our baby as she grows, etc." 

[livednlearned]

You're doing a lot in this relationship, being a dutiful and caring dad, supportive boyfriend, trying to care for her during what would be difficult for anyone (pregnant, losing a parent). You're here reaching out for support, you're going to counseling, you are buying her nice things and trying to hold a lot of stuff together when you can't be getting a whole lot of sleep.

And she acts badly, doesn't initiate affection, is moody, volatile, self-absorbed, nothing you ever do is enough. She hit you. Your mom is now a problem.

This is really hard work.

Getting things stabilized is about skills. Sometimes it feels like there are two sides and people are taking one. It's more like there is only one side -- it's yours. It's all you really can control, even if she is the one generating the lion's share of the conflict.

The skills are tough, and they are also life-changing. They will be useful in all of your relationships, not only this one. They will help you become a great parent. Hopefully they will help in your relationship with her, but without question they will help improve who you are.

I don't really understand why she says that or feels that way.

Honestly, she probably doesn't either half the time.