Prayed I'd never have to post on this board. Is S4 his father's son?

[Parents! Get help here!]

Hi family,

So I'm going to be honest.  I feel a little sick posting this and have had to build myself up to putting the words out there.  It has taken me a week to get the courage up to speak of this.  I also feel a degree of shame as a mother about what I'm going to tell you.  I apologise if I don't go into a lot of backstory, as I'm experiencing a lot of overwhelm.

Firstly, I have to ask a question.  When did you first notice something was different with your child and what were the first indications?

Here goes.  My son is 4 and a half.  Backstory is that his father and I split up when he was just turned 1.  I could no longer tolerate his father's behaviour towards me and it was the fact that it was now in front of our son that caused me to ask him to leave once and for all.  During our 10 year r/s I was so confused by the emotional abuse and random outbursts that I began Googling as you do.  I couldn't quite figure if he was BPD, a sociopath, or NPD.  A long time later I stumbled across a description of covert narcissism and this seems to fit best.  He was not a nice man to be around for me and a lot of damage to my self esteem occurred.  I am a codependent and also have PD traits. 

My son is my world and I put everything I have into being the best mother I can be.  I'm quite progressive in my outlook and so have been working with him on age appropriate EI, mindfulness and validation of his feelings (about which we speak openly and often) for a long time now.  In short, the fact that his father demonstrates the behaviour that he does has caused my deepest fear.  That my son will grow up to be like him. 

We have a 50/50 shared care arrangement since January of this year and I find that when my son returns to me after the longer stretch of time with his father (every other week) I have to start from scratch with the firm respectful limits that exist in my home.  I use logical consequences and time outs to encourage him to take responsibility for his behaviour and to reinforce the boundaries where necessary.  At the same time, plenty of praise for positive behaviour and also neutral comments. 

We do loads of fun activities together that he enjoys and I promote independence and differentiation.  I am essentially working my ass off to counteract any negative influence his father has and to give my son balance and stability in his life, demonstrating healthy morals, values and beliefs.  We have a general rule about being kind and gentle.  That is in relation to people, other creatures and property.  I previously rarely needed to remind him of this.  Not so the last couple of months.  There have been some shifts in his behaviour which have me inwardly nervous. 

I've had glimpses of the same 'streak' as I call it that his father has.  Cocky, defiant, difficulty managing his anger, aggression when his demands aren't met, including physical violence, damaging property, telling lies, generally acting out and blaming others or innate objects for his accidents or mistakes.  All this coming from my beautiful loving caring boy is difficult.  However with remaining calm and centred, following my methods for discipline and limit setting I am able to manage it.  I know it will take time and it is worth it.  I will not deviate from my course.  I've had good results so far with periods of intense push back as he readjusts or tests again.  He's an aggressive researcher.

That is not why I am posting. 

On Sunday night, after he had come to me from his father's where he'd spent 4 days, I was awoken at around 4.30am by a lot of loud noise.  At first I couldn't understand what it was.  Lots of banging crashing sounds like things being thrown or slammed, or someone stamping loudly.  My home has all wooden floors and stone tiles in the kitchen.  But there were vocal sounds too, which didn't sound like S4.  They were aggressive and a bit like the sound a child would do to impersonate a lion or tiger.  It didn't sound like a game though.  I was confused and half asleep so listened more closely for a minute or so.  Next door have a younger child and I wondered if they were having problems there.  Then the sound changed to a 'whoo!' - again, not a friendly one.  Suddenly it dawned on me.  He had one of the cats cornered.  We have two and one is extremely anxious, especially around S4 as his behaviour even when perfectly normal is unpredictable to say the least.  He has sudden energy bursts and can be overly giddy and hyper, which is frightening for the cat so he generally runs away. 

Lots of lights were on and as I got down the stairs and saw the kitchen door (usually always wide open) closed I felt the dread.  As I entered my heart literally stopped.  My darling boy had trapped the anxious cat, it seems by enticing him with treats which were scattered all over the floor, shut the door behind him and I soon discovered had locked the cat flap so the poor cat had no escape.  S4 was darting quickly from side to side on one side of the kitchen island, with a ferocious loud sound leaving him to shock the cat as the animal tried to run away and was dashing back and forth on the other side.  I was absolutely horrified.  This was no game.  There was intent.  He absolutely knew that what he was doing was wrong.

I threw myself between them, holding out my arm to stop S4 from continuing, as he seemed intent to go on, he was so focused.  My arrival hadn't phased him at all.  It was like he was in a trance.  The cat cowered against the skirting board on the other side of me, which is when I noticed the locked cat flap next to us.  My heart was racing as the cat was hyperventilating and shaking uncontrollably.  I really thought he might just have a heart attack.  As I tried to quietly soothe the cat, to calm and reassure him, my son turned to me with a look I've never seen before - smug? deranged? detached? I can't say - and stated with force "I WANT HIM TO DIE".  My heart shattered into a million pieces and I've been putting them back together since.

I remained calm and sent him to his room.  The story goes on from here, but I think you get the gist of what I'm so afraid of.  I have seen my counsellor this week, that day in fact, which was good as I was in pieces once I'd got S4 to nursery.  Other than that I've kept it together in front of him and have only been able to have a cry once in my counsellor's office.  I feel I'm somewhat in shock and am steadily trying to process and soothe myself. 

Thanks for reading if you made it this far.  I don't know if what I'm looking for is reassurance, validation that I'm not a useless mother, or confirmation of my worst fear potentially being a reality.  What I do know is that you guys are the ones to speak to and open up with if anyone is.  I have so much respect for each and every mother here for what you manage and cope with.  My heart goes out to each of you.  I never thought I'd be here so soon.

Love and light x

 

[Harley Quinn]

Hi family,

So I'm going to be honest.  I feel a little sick posting this and have had to build myself up to putting the words out there.  It has taken me a week to get the courage up to speak of this.  I also feel a degree of shame as a mother about what I'm going to tell you.  I apologise if I don't go into a lot of backstory, as I'm experiencing a lot of overwhelm.

Firstly, I have to ask a question.  When did you first notice something was different with your child and what were the first indications?

Here goes.  My son is 4 and a half.  Backstory is that his father and I split up when he was just turned 1.  I could no longer tolerate his father's behaviour towards me and it was the fact that it was now in front of our son that caused me to ask him to leave once and for all.  During our 10 year r/s I was so confused by the emotional abuse and random outbursts that I began Googling as you do.  I couldn't quite figure if he was BPD, a sociopath, or NPD.  A long time later I stumbled across a description of covert narcissism and this seems to fit best.  He was not a nice man to be around for me and a lot of damage to my self esteem occurred.  I am a codependent and also have PD traits. 

My son is my world and I put everything I have into being the best mother I can be.  I'm quite progressive in my outlook and so have been working with him on age appropriate EI, mindfulness and validation of his feelings (about which we speak openly and often) for a long time now.  In short, the fact that his father demonstrates the behaviour that he does has caused my deepest fear.  That my son will grow up to be like him. 

We have a 50/50 shared care arrangement since January of this year and I find that when my son returns to me after the longer stretch of time with his father (every other week) I have to start from scratch with the firm respectful limits that exist in my home.  I use logical consequences and time outs to encourage him to take responsibility for his behaviour and to reinforce the boundaries where necessary.  At the same time, plenty of praise for positive behaviour and also neutral comments. 

We do loads of fun activities together that he enjoys and I promote independence and differentiation.  I am essentially working my ass off to counteract any negative influence his father has and to give my son balance and stability in his life, demonstrating healthy morals, values and beliefs.  We have a general rule about being kind and gentle.  That is in relation to people, other creatures and property.  I previously rarely needed to remind him of this.  Not so the last couple of months.  There have been some shifts in his behaviour which have me inwardly nervous. 

I've had glimpses of the same 'streak' as I call it that his father has.  Cocky, defiant, difficulty managing his anger, aggression when his demands aren't met, including physical violence, damaging property, telling lies, generally acting out and blaming others or innate objects for his accidents or mistakes.  All this coming from my beautiful loving caring boy is difficult.  However with remaining calm and centred, following my methods for discipline and limit setting I am able to manage it.  I know it will take time and it is worth it.  I will not deviate from my course.  I've had good results so far with periods of intense push back as he readjusts or tests again.  He's an aggressive researcher.

That is not why I am posting. 

On Sunday night, after he had come to me from his father's where he'd spent 4 days, I was awoken at around 4.30am by a lot of loud noise.  At first I couldn't understand what it was.  Lots of banging crashing sounds like things being thrown or slammed, or someone stamping loudly.  My home has all wooden floors and stone tiles in the kitchen.  But there were vocal sounds too, which didn't sound like S4.  They were aggressive and a bit like the sound a child would do to impersonate a lion or tiger.  It didn't sound like a game though.  I was confused and half asleep so listened more closely for a minute or so.  Next door have a younger child and I wondered if they were having problems there.  Then the sound changed to a 'whoo!' - again, not a friendly one.  Suddenly it dawned on me.  He had one of the cats cornered.  We have two and one is extremely anxious, especially around S4 as his behaviour even when perfectly normal is unpredictable to say the least.  He has sudden energy bursts and can be overly giddy and hyper, which is frightening for the cat so he generally runs away. 

Lots of lights were on and as I got down the stairs and saw the kitchen door (usually always wide open) closed I felt the dread.  As I entered my heart literally stopped.  My darling boy had trapped the anxious cat, it seems by enticing him with treats which were scattered all over the floor, shut the door behind him and I soon discovered had locked the cat flap so the poor cat had no escape.  S4 was darting quickly from side to side on one side of the kitchen island, with a ferocious loud sound leaving him to shock the cat as the animal tried to run away and was dashing back and forth on the other side.  I was absolutely horrified.  This was no game.  There was intent.  He absolutely knew that what he was doing was wrong.

I threw myself between them, holding out my arm to stop S4 from continuing, as he seemed intent to go on, he was so focused.  My arrival hadn't phased him at all.  It was like he was in a trance.  The cat cowered against the skirting board on the other side of me, which is when I noticed the locked cat flap next to us.  My heart was racing as the cat was hyperventilating and shaking uncontrollably.  I really thought he might just have a heart attack.  As I tried to quietly soothe the cat, to calm and reassure him, my son turned to me with a look I've never seen before - smug? deranged? detached? I can't say - and stated with force "I WANT HIM TO DIE".  My heart shattered into a million pieces and I've been putting them back together since.

I remained calm and sent him to his room.  The story goes on from here, but I think you get the gist of what I'm so afraid of.  I have seen my counsellor this week, that day in fact, which was good as I was in pieces once I'd got S4 to nursery.  Other than that I've kept it together in front of him and have only been able to have a cry once in my counsellor's office.  I feel I'm somewhat in shock and am steadily trying to process and soothe myself. 

Thanks for reading if you made it this far.  I don't know if what I'm looking for is reassurance, validation that I'm not a useless mother, or confirmation of my worst fear potentially being a reality.  What I do know is that you guys are the ones to speak to and open up with if anyone is.  I have so much respect for each and every mother here for what you manage and cope with.  My heart goes out to each of you.  I never thought I'd be here so soon.

Love and light x

 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Munkymom]

It’s scary when kids hurt animals.   It may be just a kid thing.  My SD at 5 had what I called “Kick the cat” syndrome, she would be angry at something and if the cat was around she would kick her.   My two boys used to love cornering our cat in the garage, so he couldn’t run away.  They all consistently got sent to time out, along with lectures about why we don’t hurt animals — not to say the behavior stopped immediately, but I think it’s been years since any of them have hurt one of our animals.

Maybe you could redirect his attention toward the cat, have him feed the cat or offer it treats, or have a supervised time to pet the cat to build his empathy.

[Harley Quinn]

Thanks for your reply,

I so hope that this is all it is.  I've seen a pattern of hurtful behaviour towards animals to a lesser degree recently and put it down to that, but it was the look of intention and the words that really shocked me.  I've never ever heard my boy speak that way or look as he did.  At first I thought he might be sleep walking, but speaking to him the next morning he was just as adamant that he doesn't like the cat because he won't let him stroke him, so he is going to MAKE HIM DIE!  It's a shame I can't project his tone onto the screen, because it was alarming to say the least.  Again, not something I've had with him before, and a definite progression in the concerning behaviour all round.

The biggest irony is that he was actually beginning to bond with the cat, who had started to develop more trust in him and with S4 modifying his behaviour to be more calm when the cat was nearby and feeding him, giving treats, stroking the cat in my company, things were going better than ever.  Which is yet another reason why this took me by complete surprise and was so shocking.  I started to wonder how long it had been going on for that night, whether this sort of thing had happened before, all kinds of questions around S4's reasons, thought process, detached state... .Yes I was a wreck after I'd dropped him at nursery and for the first time this year reached out to his father with my concerns.  We're parallel parenting these days because it is best for my wellbeing not to have expectations of him to play nice enough to co parent.

I will certainly bear your advice in mind and look for ways to gradually begin reconnecting them.  I fear there will be a lot of trust to build, both on the part of the cat and myself to feel confident enough that there will be no more cruel behaviour.  I'm sad to say that I tested S4 out with a tiny snail a couple of days ago and he was left to safeguard it for 2 minutes.  When I returned he had smashed it with a garden ornament.  That didn't fill me with hope.  Nor when our other cat (his 'best friend cat' was wandering through the kitchen to go outdoors and he stamped and roared behind her to scare her away.  He can be so gentle and kind, even giving her a kiss, then to turn like that for no reason and just frighten her... .It reminds me of his father.  Which is deeply painful as it brings up a lot for me as well as the concerns I have about S4.

Thanks so much for reading and responding Munkymom 

Love and light x

[Hyacinth Bucket]

hi HQ,

That sounds like a terrifying experience, I'm so sorry that happened. It sounds like you handled it well though.

Is it possible he's acting out something he's seen somewhere else? He may not even understand what wanting something to die means. 4 is pretty young. I remember when I was about 4 I saw the Parent Trap, and saw grown ups french-kissing for the first time, and I tried to do it to my mom. I had absolutely no clue what I was doing. I was just acting out what I saw in the movie.

Just throwing that out there. I hope you are doing okay.

[Faith Spring]

Hey HQ, I understand why you're scared.  I'm thinking there are a couple things happening.  But first I want to answer your question: I first noticed something off when my d was about 3-4.  Driving home I saw a little flower stand and told her we'd stop and get some flowers.  She said no. I said well it's up to me, so yeah.   So we stopped and she wouldn't budge from her car seat.   I left the window down, walked a few feet to buy the flowers, never took my eyes off her and hopped back in the car.  This is what she says in a cold deadpan voice, like adult voice: "take me back to the hospital.  You're not my real mother.  Take me back to my mother.  My mother would not  do that to me".  That was 13 years ago and I didn't see it as a red flag.  I passed the story on to my mom like it was funny. Now I know it was not funny.  She had issues from the get go.

Well here's my take on what's up with your situation- if you keep focusing on your greatest fear it's likely to materialize.  That's just my opinion. I know you're scared he'll turn out like his dad but even if he has mental illness he'll still be him.  Nobody else.  He will still be your boy.  He may yes need help along the way with his own emotional challenges but he will never be the man you divorced.  Even if he tried.  So please let that fear go.  Replace it with a good memory of you and your son. 

It's also very interesting to me that he recently was making headway with this cat.  So trust was earned and given.  This made him happy deep down.  But what if he's having trust issues with his dad when he visits?   Maybe he's taking it out on the cat.  I think he's been feeling maybe cornered himself, maybe he feels his trust was broken, so he's just replaying it to somehow get through it. He doesn't know how to get through his own trauma aside from play/reenactment.    I like your idea of going slowly with the snail.  Maybe even just tossing a ball back and forth.  Anything to earn trust. 

Grateful you had the courage to write here.  Inspires me and I'm sure many others to be honest.  ❤️

[Turkish]

Did you ask your son why he wanted the cat to die?

My kids tormented Lilly The Chihuahua. Two years ago, my D dropped her on the ground and she hit her head and went into a seizure. Both kids were laughing. I was horrified: "are my kids psychopaths?" I was so angry at them and I shamed them. 

Lilly doesn't bark when strangers come over.  But she'll still bark at the kids on occasion.  I supervise them.  Lilly did this tonight when D6 came out on the porch to at me.  Yesterday,  I had the kids hold her in their laps at their request. 

I chalk it up to stupid little kids (no offense, I'm talking about my own) who by their age are still lacking in empathy. A 4 year old is what he is,  and it's your task as a parent to teach him that.  Maybe you were different at 4, but your son is who he is.  A kid who needs direction.

When I was 4 or 5 I remember visiting my mom's friends who had a little dog. They had an electrified fence to keep the dog out of the plants.  I put the dog against the wire touching him and I got shocked myself. I didn't want to hurt the dog, but I was a little kid,  oblivious to the pain I was causing. 

[Harley Quinn]

Is it possible he's acting out something he's seen somewhere else? He may not even understand what wanting something to die means. 4 is pretty young. I remember when I was about 4 I saw the Parent Trap, and saw grown ups french-kissing for the first time, and I tried to do it to my mom. I had absolutely no clue what I was doing. I was just acting out what I saw in the movie.

Thanks Hyacinth,

The french kissing example made me laugh.  Yes it's possible.  His father has anger issues, and I know he's traditionally handled his anger very badly, venting it all over the place.  Recently I bought a book which goes over discipline styles - which are healthy vs obviously not.  I passed it to him not expecting him to read it or take anything onboard, however he now assures me that he has changed his process and doesn't shout at S4 any more.  If that's true and actually sticks I'll be very pleased.  However S4 has already witnessed without a doubt aggression - not necessarily directed at him, or at least not all of the time I hope, but certainly in other ways.  They also play fight and do lots of rough and tumble.  When I was with his father I saw that he thinks it is funny to be mean to people.  He's a real bully.  I don't know.  Maybe their games sometimes follow a similar pattern... .Like cat and mouse.  Maybe sometimes it goes too far and S4 is afraid?  Perhaps.

His paternal grandmother hates cats, and he spends time with her.  Maybe he is acting out something he's seen her do if one has entered her garden, come to think of it.  It's beyond me how any adult could openly share hating or mistreating any living creature to a child in their formative years.  The same goes for phobias and even food dislikes.  I don't want my son influenced to hate, prejudge or fear anything.  Basically I want him to be free of hangups and negative core beliefs.  I know that's idealistic, and of course that stuff will happen coincidentally through external influence, but really for a family member to intentionally behave disgracefully towards an animal is a very unhealthy thing, which I seriously hope is not happening off my watch.

You have caused me to wonder now, and I'm going to sit with that and let it wash over me.  I'd be very (crazily) happy if it were the case that he's copying something he's seen, as opposed to this being something he decided for himself was a great idea.  If that makes sense... .  I hadn't thought of this so thank you for suggesting it as a possibility.   

Love and light x

[Feeling Better]

Hi Harley Quinn

I’m so sorry to hear of what’s brought you here to the son/daughter board, it must have been really awful for you, finding your son and your cat like that.

I agree with what others have posted, that sometimes young kids can be cruel to animals. I have seen it in my own kids and now in my grandkids. They sometimes don’t know any better until we show/tell them how to behave better.

The thing that got me most in your post though was the time, in the early hours of the morning, that the misdemeanour occurred and the fact that you said that your son looked as though he was in a trance. My first thought was that he could have been sleep walking, something that you said (in your reply to Munkymom) that had crossed your mind. I hope I’m not oversimplifying here, but you know how sometimes you can have a dream and it seems so real that even when you are awake it still feels real, well maybe that’s what was going on here. You say that when you spoke to him the following morning he was still as adamant that he wanted the cat to die. I can remember having dreams as a kid that seemed so real that I believed them to be true, one in particular stayed with me for years until I reached an age that I could properly work out that there was no way what I believed could be true and so it must have been a dream. I’m not sure if I’m putting this across very well, I hope that you get what I mean x

[Harley Quinn]

Hi everyone,

I just want to thank you all for your replies.  You have given me much to think about.  I saw my counsellor today and spoke of this and how it has been so helpful.  There is still a lot of processing for me to do and I see this as more than a one off thread, but more the start of what I imagine may become a journey. 

Whether my son proves in time to have a PD or traits, he is most definitely emotionally sensitive and has his father and I for parents, so vigilance is my middle name.  If and when things do begin to show a pattern I want to get ahead of the game and ensure that we all have the help we need.  If it doesn't swing that way, it will be a blessing.

I don't have time tonight to get back to you all individually, but do wish to comment on each of your replies, so will be back soon with that.  Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.  It really means a lot and has made a big difference to how I was feeling.   

Love and light x

[Merlot]

Hi Harley Quinn

I was sitting on the train on the way home from work reading your post and I was quite overwhelmed with emotion for both of us.  It felt like I was looking back in time to 23 years ago.

I could no longer tolerate his father's behaviour towards me.  :)uring our 10 year r/s I was so confused by the emotional abuse and random outbursts.  I couldn't quite figure if he was BPD, a sociopath, or NPD.  A long time later I stumbled across a description of covert narcissism and this seems to fit best.  He was not a nice man to be around for me and a lot of damage to my self esteem occurred.  

After my husband and I separated, (I left him) we underwent 6 months of marriage counselling. In 6 months he was unable to concede that a single thing was wrong with his behaviour and the failing marriage was my fault, even though he was incredibly emotionally and verbally abusive.  I had a light bulb moment in counselling where a small sliver of myself re-appeared with a fierce determination. I thought... .if I stay here, my life and my children's will be at stake.  The moment of when enough is enough and too much is plenty.  

I literally stood up mid sentence and pardoned myself and that was the end of our marriage.  His last words, if you leave me I will make your life a living hell.  The isolation and devastation was monumental; a failed marriage for all to see and comment on.  Nobody ever mentioned personality disorders - the internet was in it's infancy and nobody talked about this stuff but intuitively I knew this was not the right fit for me, now I think he has NPD/BPD traits.  Why can't we do coffee and chat... .

Any way, to your next point... .

When did you first notice something was different with your child and what were the first indications?

When my DD was nearly three (and while I was still married to my ex), my youngest was a few months old.  We had moved to another state for my ex-husband's job.  I didn't know a soul and my support network was being established through playgroup.

My ex returned to our home state for work this particular week and I told my DD that we were going for an outing to the park (a specialised park) some 30 mins away by car.   In the car, I had given her a sticker book and she and the baby were as quiet as mice.  Backtrack - my DD had been having severe tantrums for about 12 months and I was going through a stage of "when I say no - I mean no".  Anyway, on arrival at the park, I went to get both DD and baby out of the car.  When I opened the back door, my DD had put stickers everywhere except in the book, not to mention all over the baby and the baby capsule.  While getting them both out of the car, I told her that it was enough.  She looked at me and stuck another sticker on the capsule.  I told her that if she did it again, we were going home.  She looked at me with "that look" - Smug - deranged - detached. It scared me. And as quick as lightening she put a sticker on my shoe while looking at me in defiance.  So true to my word, I put them both back in the car.  She was in a rage and 10 mins into the trip home, she managed to pull herself free of the booster seat and she put her hands around my eyes while I was driving.  I had to pull over and re-strap her into her booster seat.  By the time I got home, both DD and baby were screaming.  I ran the baby into the house in the capsule and then came back for my DD and took her straight to her room for time out. I then breast fed my baby whilst crying myself - (I was 26).  After the immediate crisis, I rang my mother in my home state and she advised me to let my DD calm down and only go and enter her room when I thought it was calm.  An hour later, I did just that only to find she had totally trashed her room and was standing on her dressing table.  She was wetting herself and looked at me for a second time with "that look".  I, like you was totally devastated and at a loss. Shamefully I didn't even deal with the wetting, i just shut the door again and cred for a second time before calling my mum again for advice.

We also went week about - don't even get me started on that  - I've spent my life trying to be everything you have described (in no mans land - didn't know what I was dealing with) - compensating for him, picking up the pieces every week when they came back ratty.  Everything I did in my week was undermined during his.

I loved my daughters with a fierce motherly passion and protection that is heightened in these circumstances.  I resented him so much as he took my energy away from my girls when I needed it the most.  I regret this, and chastise myself over this more than anything in my life.

Harley Quinn - my heart goes out to you.  I have two daughters, one the genetic and environmental imprint of her father - my BPD child. The other  - a genentic and environmental imprint of (I believe) me who is challenged every day by her sister and father.

My words of hope and limited wisdom are this:

Don't change anything about you - you are doing perfectly    My DD - despite all of our challenges told my current husband (her step-father) a few years ago - if anything ever happened to her Dad, she could go on - but if anything ever happened to her mum (me); she didn't know how she would live.  Go figure, even thought I am the one cut off; I believe it's most truly because she needs my love and approval more than anything she's ever needed.  So difficult when you love them but don't love their behaviour - but for them there is no difference.  (i'm only learning this now - feels like 27 years too late)

That old adage of: they hurt the ones they love the most is at the forefront of my mind.

You should never compromise who you are and the values you uphold - this is all we have - irrespective of how genetic mental health and personality disorders whirl around us; of which we have no control.  It does not mean we don't love them and vice versa and like you've so eloquently articulated - you can control their environment.

By no means is my experience suggesting that your son will become a child with BPD/NDP; regretfully I made so many mistakes; I was child myself and I know that.  Your baby is only four and you have all of the wealth of information and care at your disposal to drive the best possible outcome; all of which I never had- I'm so glad you wrote on this board.

I'm so sorry Harley Quinn for your pain but I have much hope for you and your son

Merlot

[Harley Quinn]

This is what she says in a cold deadpan voice, like adult voice: "take me back to the hospital.  You're not my real mother.  Take me back to my mother.  My mother would not  do that to me".  That was 13 years ago and I didn't see it as a red flag.  I passed the story on to my mom like it was funny. Now I know it was not funny.  She had issues from the get go.

Hi Faith,

Thanks so much for your reply.  You're absolutely right - I am scared and what's worse is that I am often telling others that what you focus on happens.  I know I need to put out some more positive vibes to the Universe about this and I'm glad that you gave me that nudge.     He certainly will always be my boy and I'll love him no matter what.

Your story above reminds me of the moments when S4 will be happily laughing away with me in the shower for example and then turn around and say "But I don't like you any more" in such a serious voice, which I am telling myself is just him having a grump because he didn't get his own way about something, but I also wonder if other mothers have this... .Again when he doesn't have a demand met sometimes and has a meltdown he will tell me he is not coming to my house any more and I can tell his dad.  I just say OK darling and carry on as normal.  He doesn't bring it up again.  To some degree you may be onto something when it comes to his time with his father.  I actually asked him if he's ever felt very scared and he said yes.  So I asked if it was when he was with me and he replied no.  He didn't say anything further so I left it, but I'm also aware that he sometimes just says yes or no to things without that being the truth.  So hard to tell.  

We have been working on the gradual build up of trust and I must say that he has been for the most part much better.  He seems to understand that a line was crossed and that what happened is something we do not do.  I've put some distance between him and the cat for now and am giving him chances to show me that he can be trusted to be left alone for short periods without misbehaving.  There was less aggression towards me last week when I had him, and that is definitely a positive step.

Thanks for the encouragement    

Love and light x

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Harley Quinn]

Did you ask your son why he wanted the cat to die?

My kids tormented Lilly The Chihuahua. Two years ago, my D dropped her on the ground and she hit her head and went into a seizure. Both kids were laughing. I was horrified: "are my kids psychopaths?" I was so angry at them and I shamed them. 

Lilly doesn't bark when strangers come over.  But she'll still bark at the kids on occasion.  I supervise them.  

Hi Turkish,

Yes he said "I don't like him because he doesn't let me stroke him and that's NOT FAIR!"  In reality the cat has let him stroke him when I'm supervising and also a couple of times when he has approached him carefully by himself.  S4 understands that if he wants to stroke the cat he needs to approach him quietly and gently, and had been doing well in that respect.  I expect he feels impatient about their bond forming though so that he can march up to him like the other cat.  She is bold as brass and fears no one.  She even puts up with him when he's giddy until she's had enough, at which point she will get up and walk away or tap him on the hand with her paw.  So they have an understanding.

Poor Lilly!  I can totally understand why you would be so mad.  I think if I hadn't so recently read the book I did on setting firm respectful limits I'd have flipped at my son as well when I came across the scene I did.  We won't get everything right all of the time.  The important thing is that we're trying our best with them.

Maybe you were different at 4, but your son is who he is.  A kid who needs direction.

You're right there.  More so than most I'd say as our parenting styles between his two homes couldn't be more different I'm sure.

I also know that there can be an aspect of curiosity in wanting to 'see what happens when I do this', like yourself and the electrified dog... .However I do think there is more to it.  Call it a gut feeling.  In some ways it is good that this happened though.  I am more vigilant now and more closely supervising him when he is around the cats so he is 100% clear on the boundaries there.  Also I'm aware of what he is capable of, so now that I've had the initial shock I will be better prepared to handle anything else to the same degree that comes up.  If it does.  Let's hope not.

Love and light x 

[Harley Quinn]

I can remember having dreams as a kid that seemed so real that I believed them to be true, one in particular stayed with me for years until I reached an age that I could properly work out that there was no way what I believed could be true and so it must have been a dream. I’m not sure if I’m putting this across very well, I hope that you get what I mean x

I actually do know what you mean FB.  In fact I'm pretty sure I've experienced that, but don't hold me to it.  I think if I wasn't having the other aggressive behaviours from him and the crushed snail etc. then I'd be more inclined to think it might be a dream related instance.  It would be so nice for it to just be a one off though, whatever the reason to be honest! 

S4 is at his dad's since Wednesday and I woke in the middle of the night on Thursday to go to the bathroom.  On my way back to my bedroom I checked in on S4 and found he wasn't in bed.  I instantly panicked but then relaxed as it was so quiet downstairs.  I walked down, half expecting to find him curled up on the couch.  When I finally realised he wasn't even staying with me I had such a huge feeling of relief.  What that tells me is I'm holding onto some dread that the same thing could happen again.  I need to work on building up that trust of him again so I can let that go.  Fingers crossed we stay on the same track as we were last week when he returns.

Thanks for your reply 

Love and light x

[Harley Quinn]

I was sitting on the train on the way home from work reading your post and I was quite overwhelmed with emotion for both of us.  It felt like I was looking back in time to 23 years ago.

Hi Merlot,

Wow.  Where to begin?  Reading your reply has me feeling much the same way for us both.  Maybe I should emigrate so we can get that coffee!  I believe I know the exact look you're talking about.  And the behaviour is so familiar.  The pushing it too far, and then going beyond as if proving something.  The violent meltdowns.  Trashing his room.  I used to give him time out in the guest bedroom, which is a calming space, until he put one of my canvases I'd painted on the bed and jumped on it, stamping his foot right through it.  He threw everything in the room and smashed things against the door.  In the end I decided if he was going to be destructive he could damage his own things.

Covering your eyes in the car must have been terrifying!  S4 went through a stage of getting out of his seat belt in the car for a few months and I was so afraid of what might happen.  He can be utterly defiant beyond anything I've seen before in a child.  It's as if he believes he is fully in charge.  That's when I see his father's attitude coming off him.  It's deeply unpleasant to say the least.  My counsellor reminds me of the work I'm doing and that it will stay with him.  I just hope so when it comes to big life decisions later for him.  His father has spent most of his life on a very dark path, so I do all I can to show S4 the light.  I'm pleased to say that he is probably more like me than his father and I must accept that I can do nothing about others' influence.  It still hurts that he has to have that influence in his life but he also needs a father and I would never come between them.  Unless I had evidence of a risk of harm of course.

Shamefully I didn't even deal with the wetting, i just shut the door again and cred for a second time before calling my mum again for advice.

There is nothing to be ashamed of.  We all have our limits.  I have hit breaking point many times and have cried in front of him on one early occasion because I was so shocked, upset and simultaneously furious.  He was 3 and I went upstairs to the loo.  2 minutes I was gone.  S4 had taken a cup of milk from the kitchen table and sprayed it from his mouth all over everything - literally -
 on the ground floor of the house.  My laptop, his toys, furniture, every part of every floor, you name it.  It was like snow had fallen when I walked downstairs.
 I was mortified and yes I got the look.  Like 'Ha!  What are you going to do about it?'  He knew that what he had done was beyond not OK and had done it on purpose.  There are times that if he is denied something, no matter how it is done, he seems to just want to make me pay.  

So many times I've held back tears until he has gone to bed finally.  Sometimes I've not even made it as far as closing his bedroom door before they had to flow down my cheeks.  Since our legal parenting schedule was put into place in January, I think he has more stability and understands that what happens now is not going to change.  Prior to that his father was quite unstable at times and was actively alienating me at points.  Things are different now - more settled - and I think both my son and I feel more secure.  So on the whole, despite the handful he can be with his rages, I've had the behaviour handled.  As in, I no longer become upset or take it personally.  I need to remain consistent and I'm working really hard to do that.  He does not see his behaviour having an effect on me now and I'm quite proud of that as I'm removing the reinforcement.  It doesn't seem to make it actually stop, certainly not until he's burnt off his anger and frustration one way or another, but at least he's not being rewarded for it.  'That look' though, is something else, isn't it?

S4 has clear stages when he is getting worked up.  If I can catch it soon enough, I validate and we can sit together, cuddle and just 'be angry, be with our feelings and know they will go away on their own'.  He generally responds well to this.  However if I miss a trick he has a stage which I describe as him 'going beyond'.  When he is beyond, there is no hope to get through to him.  I can only put space between us and let him cool off in safety.  Hopefully over time we will get lots of practise at 'being with our feelings' and not having to do something destructive to get rid of them.  I'll be so happy if this can become a positive habit for him.  

Thank you so much for your heartfelt words of encouragement.  My spirits have really been lifted by the wonderful support of everyone who has replied.  I'm so glad I plucked up the courage to post.  

I was very moved by your reply overall Merlot, as I do see some definite similarities in our kids.  I appreciate your pointing out that there is hope.  I believe you are right.  There is hope for all of us.  Where there is love there is light  

Love and light x  

[Merlot]

Hi Harley Quinn

'That look' though, is something else, isn't it?

It really is - my husband and I actually have a name for it; not one for the board though  We saw this just before Christmas last year when we had been temporarily cut off.  She called the police to our house to get a few of her belongings.  We arrived home from an outing to find the police on our doorstep.  Two seconds later she pulled up, go out of the car and stood in the driveway with "the same look"  Triumphant! Smug!

I gave the police her belongings and they asked if I wanted to speak with her while they were in attendance.  I said "do you see that look - nothing good can come of any conversation with her at the moment".

Thank you for sharing your experiences, I've felt very alone in this regard and as a young mum I took it so personally and thought it was me/my parenting and now I know it was so much more.

S4 has clear stages when he is getting worked up.  If I can catch it soon enough, I validate and we can sit together, cuddle and just 'be angry, be with our feelings and know they will go away on their own'.  He generally responds well to this.  However if I miss a trick he has a stage which I describe as him 'going beyond'.  When he is beyond, there is no hope to get through to him.  I can only put space between us and let him cool off in safety.  Hopefully over time we will get lots of practise at 'being with our feelings' and not having to do something destructive to get rid of them.  I'll be so happy if this can become a positive habit for him.  

I'm so glad you've got the benefit of knowledge and are putting such strong strategies in place to manage yourself and the behaviours with your son, and I'm glad that he is more like you.  As I think Huat said on my post "This is a strong force for good".

I wish you well Harley Quinn and yes there are many Brits in Australia soaking up the sunshine over coffee  

Hope to talk to you soon  

Merlot

[Harley Quinn]

Thanks Merlot and I'm glad that you can know you're not alone.  I can't tell you how much it has helped me to post here.  Why didn't I do it sooner?  I guess until things got 'extreme' in my view (in that the aggression was directed towards a helpless animal and not a - rather tough if I'm honest and certainly strong - female in her early forties) I was just getting by.  It's made a world of difference to speak to all of you and hear your experiences.

Hope to talk to you soon

I'll just start packing... .

Love and light x