She wants to keep the kids while I go out of town for work

[mama-wolf]

Well, I knew it was coming.

First, she fought for right of first refusal in the custody order so that I would have no choice but to let her have the option to keep the kids if I went out of town for business during my custodial time.  She lost that in mediation.

Then she started pressing after the separation to know if and when I was going to be out of town during my custodial time.  I resisted this because I knew the very next thing to happen would be for her to ask me, try to make her case, try to guilt me into letting her keep the kids on those days.

Based on my initial conversation with the PC and my therapist, I know sharing the information is reasonable, but I just really need and want firm boundaries around what she can then do with it.  After the PC was put in place, she made a formal demand that the custodial parent notify the non-custodial parent if she had to go out of town and notify her who the caretaker of the kids would be in those cases (only during custodial time, with a stipulation that non-custodial parent would only contact the kids' caretaker if there was an emergency).  I agreed without any argument.

I now have a trip coming up in November that will take me out of town for two nights during  my five-day stretch of time with the kids.  I informed her on Monday, and the reply I anticipated arrived yesterday:

I really, really would appreciate the chance to keep them the nights you are out of town. I am offering, as a co-custodial parent, to spend more time with our kids, not less time.

She recently made another request/demand of me that was tied to her smear campaign, which I went into here.  I ended up asking for some guidance on a response in that thread and got some good feedback on using SET.  I am thinking SET might be an appropriate approach here as well to tell her that no I do not agree for her to keep the kids while I'm away on this business trip.  I'm posting here for input since this is pretty firmly in the co-parenting domain... .

S - (I'm struggling most with what to put here... .)
E - I understand you miss the kids when they are not with you and want to spend more time with them when you can
T - I have decided it is best for the kids to stay at my house with my mom on my custodial days during my business trip

FYI to the board, my mom now lives with me and the house is two miles from the kids' school.  Not only does D9 not want to go to uBPDxw's house those two days, but it would also be far more disruptive to the kids' schedule in general if they did.  Plus, the only time they have to develop and nurture their relationship with my side of the family is during the 50% of the time that they are with me.  Granted, they now have far more time with my mom now that she lives with me, but I'm not going to get into that argument with uBPDxw.

mw

[worriedStepmom]

Do you really need to respond to her request?

You've told her over and over and over and over again that you aren't planning to let her have the kids on your time.  You've told her that your mother moved in with you and is another caregiver for the kids.

I suspect if you respond to her email, she'll just argue with you and stress you out.  Your T sentence gives her two prime opportunities - "I decided" would likely be interpreted as "xW doesn't matter" (which is true in this case, but could be a trigger) and "it is best for the kids" is something she can definitely find a way to argue.

[takingandsending]

Hi m-wolf.

I was just reading part of Splitting last night, and seems you are in BIFF, not SET at this time. They're not mutually exclusive, but I think you are inviting discussion around this with your response. The empathy is going to encourage her to feel even more sorry for herself, and the "I have decided ... ." truth is going to fuel dysregulation - pwBPD love to be in CONTROL, so that is going to be a button presser.

Wondering if you can just say, "I understand your request, and at this time, I am following the parent plan. You have my mom's number and can call if anything comes up." She will think and say all sorts of bad things about you, but being impersonal gives a very limited amount of fuel to the fire. It will die out more quickly.

[mama-wolf]

Do you really need to respond to her request?

I do think I need to respond in some way, yes.  I have already experienced that not responding to something she has specifically asked only escalates her behavior and she repeats the request.  I have found I am getting triggered with each interaction these days... .and it is feeling more intense lately when it happens, too.  I would rather try to head off the additional stress (for me) while setting a boundary for future engagement on the topic. 

I just need to figure out how to do that effectively, with minimal invitation to argue.  She's going to try to argue one way or another, but if she keeps it up (i.e. harassing) I'll take it to the PC.  That's supposed to be part of what he's there for, right?

I was just reading part of Splitting last night, and seems you are in BIFF, not SET at this time. They're not mutually exclusive, but I think you are inviting discussion around this with your response.

Thank you takingandsending for redirecting me back to BIFF!  So rather than going into the depth of SET, maybe I just reply simply with something like:

I understand your request.  I will let you know if there are future opportunities for them to stay with you while I am on business travel.

I'm reluctant to reference the custody order directly, because I know it's triggering for uBPDxw (she thinks I "won" too much in general).

mw

[takingandsending]

That sounds great. To the point, without emotional reference. I like your response and agree that dropping the potential trigger is for the best.

Hang in there. I am right there with you, going through the same stuff with my xw.

PS - My collab divorce coach encouraged us to approach communication as business partners. You are a professional. You know how to do that, but don't expect your xw to do so yet. My xw is now at the point of trying to punish me by stonewalling all communication, even re. kids, unless it's something she wants to discuss. A new phase for you to look forward to. Oddly, I don't mind it all that much.

[ForeverDad]

My input too might be too blunt or triggering to her, "I don't want to deviate from the order."  But perhaps you can blend that theme into your response so it would be a subtle way to say, You're trying to guilt me into deviating from the order.

[formflier]

She knows the answer and I suspect she is trying to get you to say no again.

Let her say no to herself... .let her connect the dots.


First answer

"Let me consider your request, I'll get back to you in a few weeks."  (then... don't talk about it for a few weeks).

Then after a few weeks.

"I don't believe modifying the current order is wise."  (or something like that)

She will paint you as the persecutor... make her work for it.


As a side note:  Is there a stipulation of how far in advance you have to notify?  For the purposes that you have agreed to, it would seem reasonable to give same day notice.

Emergency contact for tonight will be (fill in the blank)  (Very very BIFF)

She is going to ruminate about this until the trip is over.  Nothing you can do about that.  The only thing you control is how far in advance you let her know.

Use the tool you have.

FF

[mama-wolf]

Thank you FD and FF for also joining the discussion.

I was getting ready to send the response that I worked through with takingandsending because I'm most comfortable with that for wow.

Then I started thinking that I could offer the opportunity to switch days.  That way, she would get the days that I'm gone, but I'd also get days back.  I know her ultimate goal is to get more days, so I'm not sure how she would react to the offer.  I'm also not sure I want to start down that road at the beginning.  Maybe we can get there eventually, but I just don't see it going well right now.

mw

[formflier]

That is a wonderful idea!

The value of group discussions like this is massive.

Certainly only talk about the offer on parenting portal.  I'm still going to be stuck on the process stuff.  I don't think you should mention facebook at all.

Do you notify her via parenting portal?

How far in advance are your supposed to notify her?

Here is the juicy thing that she has to decide.  If her "value" is that your kids should be with a parent... she should snap your offer up quickly.

If her "value" is that she "beats" you and "gets more"... .then she will object to the swap... .she'll just want more.

Yes... there is a bit of "fighting" and "point making" underlying all this (or maybe on the face of it)... .but values tied to action are a good thing to demonstrate.

You value the court order... .you will act on it... and there is an underlying cost to you.

You are giving her an opportunity to act on her value and decide if the "cost" is worth it.

This should be interesting.

FF

[livednlearned]

I'm also not sure I want to start down that road at the beginning. 

You're wise to recognize this  

It's so much harder to bring back a boundary after giving it away.

This boundary is about you, mama wolf. You have to decide how much you want negotiate over boundaries that you fought hard for. They are now set. It doesn't get more black and white than a court order. She knows that. She's an officer of the court.

"I understand your request, and at this time, I am following the parent plan. You have my mom's number and can call if anything comes up."

Something about that makes you uncomfortable. Enough that you want to soften it, make it more palatable, before she has even responded. This will confuse her and give her an opening to try again. Next time when you say no she will have to push harder because now the boundary is even less clear than it was before. Which is it? Does she get the kids when you go away on your time or not? Only when you feel like it? When will that be? She'll have to test each time to figure it out.

People here understand why you want to soften the boundary. We are your people   . So I say this with compassion and understanding: you can't give her an inch and then get mad when she takes a mile. That's how boundaries work for her.

If you give her a kind but firm response, it may lead to a dysregulation and it might be sad and bad for a while, and then it will go back to whatever normal is.

Over time, she will learn that this really is a boundary because you said so.

You won't have to go through this every time you go away.

[takingandsending]

Hi m-wolf.

I will echo lnl - strongly recommend not going down that road right now. pwBPD don't have an inherently good sense of fairness. What seems like a straight up trade of parent days to you will not be her version of it. Be very wary of agreeing conceptually, and later finding you are being sucked into arguments over what is fair.

Example:
Me - I think that holidays/special days should be identified as priority over vacation days in parent plan.
Xw - That makes no sense. If the kids have time off over holidays, that's the time you are going to take your vacations anyway.
[Cue 30 minutes of back and forth with lawyers and divorce coach ... .dollars literally flying out the window]
Me - The reason holidays should be a priority over vacation is because non-custodial parent could choose to schedule vacation during custodial parent's year to have kids on that holiday.
Xw - Oh. Who would do that? I would never do that to you!
Me (against ALL BETTER JUDGMENT) - Fine. Priority one is special days, then vacation, then holidays.
[Collaborative team breaks out the pom poms because the reasonable person has paved way to get the plan done and signed]
[Scenes shifts to a fine summery day ... .a cell phone pings to notify there is an incoming text]
Xw - I am taking the boys on vacation over Thanksgiving.
Me - I am going to strenuously object. Can you find another time? You had them for Thanksgiving last year; per the plan, this year is mine. If you recall, this is the very thing I was concerned about that you stated you would never do. Are you stating that I will have the boys the next two years for Thanksgiving?

Think you get the picture where letting go of a boundary leads.

[formflier]

If you look at takingandsending's example, the statement of "I'd never do that to you... " is a great place to learn negotiation with a pwBPD.

"Oh... good... .no reason to object to putting it in writing."  Then write the rule so that it never gets done to you, after all, why would she object to signing something saying she would never do, what she would never do.  (you get the picture)

Back to the issue of swapping. 

The safest bet is to stick with the court order.  That being said, there may be times YOU really want to swap.  This could be your time to demonstrate what that would look like.

Nobody goes one up or one down.

It avoids boundary busting of giving an inch and taking a mile.  You are offering her a mile and asking for a mile in return. 

I would certainly avoid any talk of "doing this all the time", although in theory... I can't imagine why you would be against it, since you would end up with more days with your kids.

It is wise to think through all of this prior to ANY communication at all over the matter.

FF

[mama-wolf]

Do you notify her via parenting portal?

How far in advance are your supposed to notify her?

Yes, I definitely keep as much communication as possible in the parenting portal.  Advance notice is not specified exactly.  The request (demand) she sent me stated "as soon as practicable."  I interpreted that to mean as soon as it works for me, and actually sat on the news about this trip for over two weeks.

Here is the juicy thing that she has to decide.  If her "value" is that your kids should be with a parent... she should snap your offer up quickly.

If her "value" is that she "beats" you and "gets more"... .then she will object to the swap... .she'll just want more.

Exactly.  This is what prompted the thought, but as LnL and takingandsending confirmed, now does not seem to be the right time to offer up this opportunity just yet.

"I understand your request, and at this time, I am following the parent plan. You have my mom's number and can call if anything comes up."

Something about that makes you uncomfortable. Enough that you want to soften it, make it more palatable, before she has even responded. This will confuse her and give her an opening to try again.

I think part of what makes me uncomfortable with this particular wording is the reference to the parent plan.  The only "plan" is the actual custody order, which does specify that we can adjust the schedule if we agree on it in the interests of the kids.  So if I say I'm going by the plan, she'll counter with the fact that so is she by trying to agree on adjustments (based of course on what she thinks is best).  I see the reference as 1) triggering as I mentioned earlier since she thinks I won too much already and 2) inviting the argument about "what's best" and why I don't agree with her about what that is.

People here understand why you want to soften the boundary. We are your people   . So I say this with compassion and understanding: you can't give her an inch and then get mad when she takes a mile. That's how boundaries work for her.

Thank you!  I'm so grateful every day to have found my people, and I welcome being called out on potentially ill-advised actions

Be very wary of agreeing conceptually, and later finding you are being sucked into arguments over what is fair.

Think you get the picture where letting go of a boundary leads.

Yes, this warning brings up many memories from the marriage itself, and definitely highlights the added risk now that we're separated.  Your example sounds like something uBPDxw would conceivably do as well.

The safest bet is to stick with the court order.  That being said, there may be times YOU really want to swap.  This could be your time to demonstrate what that would look like.

Agreed that this is an important consideration for the long-haul.  I really do think things are too raw and new for us to go there just yet.  uBPDxw is still only starting to get used to me setting and sticking with boundaries (which she hates).  I am really still just learning myself... .truly identifying my boundaries and communicating them, and though I think I'm doing fairly well on sticking with them once established, I'm still working through the inner turmoil a lot (FOG, anxiety, etc).

I put a lot of thought into the schedule over the next year when I was working on the proposed custody order with my L and throughout our mediation.  I know that I will have a lot more chances to offer up a swap based on my work schedule, giving me the opportunity to be seen as the one offering rather than being the one needing to ask for it based on what I want.

So, rather than opening up the question of future changes, maybe this is the way to go for now?

I understand your request, and at this time I do not plan to change the schedule.  Please contact my mom in case of emergency or an issue arising during the workday at school while I am gone.

I added that last sentence based on recommendations here and specifically worded it using verbiage from her request (demand) to know when I would be going out of town.

The group discussion really is very helpful... .thank you all for the responses!

mw

[formflier]

I really do think things are too raw and new for us to go there just yet. 

This seems to be most important and something that only you can "feel" or "judge".  100%... .go with this. 

Based on all our talks, it's also the safe play at the moment.  Never feel bad for making a safe... conservative move with a pwBPD

FF

[worriedStepmom]

If it helps... .

I have a business trip in a few weeks.  My kids will continue to follow their normal schedule, going to their dad's one night and staying with my husband the other nights.  This is their home during most of the school week, this is their routine, and my husband is a primary caregiver.  I doubt they will even miss me     My non-pd xH is fine with the kids being with my H, because this is their family too.

My sister and her son live with my mom. As far as my nephew is concerned, my mom is a parental figure.  If his mom is gone, Nana is the next best thing. (*Caveat: when nephew was given a choice as to who would get custody of him if something happened to my sister, his dad was #5 on the ordered list, after my mom, me, my husband, and my husband's parents.)

DO NOT let your xW make you feel guilty about this choice.  It is absolutely reasonable for your kids to stay home with their other primary caregiver while you are gone.

[livednlearned]

I see what you mean now about the parenting plan -- you put some built-in flexibility into the custody order. And, at the same time, you want to diffuse her perception that you have more control than she does.

Here are some impressions I would have given what your current suggested language says:

I understand your request (finally, you make sense), and at this time I do not plan to change the schedule (you're right, I have all this control, at my discretion).  Please contact my mom in case of emergency or an issue arising during the workday at school while I am gone (do what I say).

How about working in something that worriedstepmom suggests.

"Let's keep the routine steady for now so the kids can get used to a set schedule. Once things are more settled we can discuss how to be more flexible. In the meantime, you are always welcome to contact my mom if something related to the kids arises during the workday at school while I am gone."

This puts a little more emphasis on what's best for the kids -- it's hard to argue with that (or at least, one would hope... .) and it also uses "we" language to diminish her fears that you have all the control.

[mama-wolf]

LnL, I'm a little confused now at what seems to be a conflicting suggestion of removing acknowledgement about understanding the request and softening the response even more than what I had originally proposed.  An added factor (which the Family here wouldn't know) is that I have already agreed to adjust some parts of the schedule over late November and December in order to address uBPDxw's concerns about evening out the time the kids spend with each of us due to the holidays, so I can't really argue that I don't want to change the schedule so that they can get used to it... .and I have already demonstrated flexibility on my end even if she doesn't acknowledge it.

So at this point, I have sent the following response:

I understand your request, and at this time I do not plan to change the kids' schedule.  As we agreed in your proposal regarding overnight travel, please contact my mom in case of emergency or an issue arising during the workday at school while I am gone.

The points and potential interpretations provided here are still so very valuable, and they help me think a little deeper beyond what my intended message is.  uBPDxw may read into it about me having all of the control and dysregulate about that, but as it relates to the time that the kids are in my care--whether directly or indirectly through a caretaker I have selected--I have decided to remain consistently clear that it is my decision (boundary).  I do not accept responsibility for whether she likes it or not, or how she handles that fact.

Thanks again everyone

mw

[livednlearned]

LnL, I'm a little confused now at what seems to be a conflicting suggestion of removing acknowledgement about understanding the request and softening the response even more than what I had originally proposed.

First suggestion was about sticking to the boundary in the custody order -- a full BIFF. It's more about the boundary than the acknowledgment.

The second one softens the tone to acknowledge her emotions while recognizing there is room for negotiation. A bit trickier. The boundary is fluid so it's like a half BIFF with some SET principles.

Hope that makes sense.

[mama-wolf]

It does--thank you!