How do I deal with stonewalling without losing it?

[Woodchuck]

I know I have posted at least a few times about semi similar issues.  Things seem to be getting progressively worse as I work on myself though and it is very difficult to deal with.  There were two occasions tonight where I asked simple questions and was completely stonewalled.  Some of my supplement meds were on the counter and I did not recall putting them there so I just asked everyone that was in the room, S14, D11 and wife if they had been using them.  My S14 and D11 both said they had not but my wife refused to answer at all.  My S14 even asked her if she heard me a couple of times.  She sat there in complete silence.  I know, just walk away and don't expect anything.  This, in my mind was basic simple short communication and we can't even manage that.  Shortly after that, I asked her which car she was taking tomorrow as she is going along with the youth group trip to an amusement park (if you have been following any of my threads, you know how this plays into everything).  One of our cars AC does not work and the trip in an hour away.  She has the keys for that car.  We only have one set of keys for that car.  I have to leave before her to volunteer at the church.  The church is only 10 mins away and the park is an hour or more away.  It would make sense for her to take the car that has working AC but if she won't communicate with me and tell me either what she wants or where she has the keys, that is not possible.  Just walk away right?  It is her issue.  Yes that is true but it is also affecting the kids both with not having AC during their trip as well as seeing their mother acting what I would deem as completely inappropriately.  This, just like asking about the meds is just a simple basic question.  It is not trying to discus any issues or conflicts but she still stonewalls.  I did just walk away but I am very frustrated.  How am I supposed to deal with this on a daily basis?  This is just not good or right for anyone!

Woodchuck

[Notwendy]

John Gottman is a marital expert who discusses stonewalling as a serious issue in a marriage. He has suggestions. When things are at this point, the two of you may need professional help with your marriage.

https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-stonewalling/


https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/

[Woodchuck]

John Gottman is a marital expert who discusses stonewalling as a serious issue in a marriage. He has suggestions. When things are at this point, the two of you may need professional help with your marriage.

https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-stonewalling/


https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/

Notwendy-
Good morning!  I should clarify first that my goal isn’t to change her behavior.  I don’t expect that to happen.  I just need to figure out how to function and remain calm and deal with things in a healthy manner for myself.   
We have gone to many marriage counselors over the years and none have helped.  It is interesting that you mention John Gottman.  My T introduced me to his material several months ago.  I get the marriage minute emails every week and have read a bit of his stuff.  He has a lot of good material.  I haven’t come across anything regarding stonewalling yet though.  I will have to check out the link you posted. 

Woodchuck

[formflier]

So... what does your T advise you "do" with stonewalling?

How many times repeat?

What do you say when disengaging?

Dude... .it's air conditioning.  There are windows... .there are towels to wipe perspiration.   

There seems to be a HUUUUUUUGGGGGGGEEEEEEE amount of focus on your part of the comfort of others... .when they don't seem to be particularly interested.

Can you think for a bit on where that comes from?

FF

[Notwendy]

Gottman gives suggestions for self soothing when faced with stonewalling.

His four horsemen reference to the apocalypse is that stonewalling, along with criticism, contempt and defensiveness are potential predictors of the end of a relationship. Yes, you can not change her behavior but it is an indicator that the relationship could be in trouble. I don't know how much she is concerned about damaging the relationship and perhaps a counselor could mediate that discussion with her. Pw BPD tend to be more focused on their own feelings, and I don't know how aware she is about how this is affecting the marriage. She also needs to know her choices to continue stonewalling or try to make things better, and it doesn't appear this discussion can come from you.

[Buzz2]

Woodchuck,

My perspective is that what you are experiencing is the silent treatment, not necessarily stonewalling.  I guess it could be argued that ST is a form of stonewalling, but my partner is excellent at both and I see them slightly differently.  With him, stonewalling usually involves more words and rigid thinking/statements, whereas the ST is literally that - no (or few) words.

The reason I'm differentiating (or maybe splitting hairs  ) is I think that perspective on this might yield different approaches.  I'll use a couple of examples here from my experience:

Stonewalling

Me: Do you think we should put our tax refund in savings or use it for something else?

Partner: I don't know; I never thought about it.

Me: Could you think about it and let me know?

Partner: I don't know.

In both of my partner's responses there would be a certain attitude and belligerence that I've come to know well.  I just walk away from these conversations and do what I think is best with the tax refund (I'm the financial rep in our house).

Silent Treatment

Me: Are you taking daughter swimming today?

Partner: (Shrugs and walks away).

Me:  Is everything okay?

Partner: (Shrugs and walks away.  Puts earbuds in and proceeds to ignore/not engage for hours/days.)

My response after many years of this is to treat it like rage and stay away.  Because with my partner it IS rage.  A different way of expressing it, but rage.  It's hostile and abusive.  It took me a long time to finally identify it as emotional abuse.  I'm learning to stay away when I'm being abused.

Hope this helps.  I realize my situation may not translate to yours so feel free to disregard if not helpful.

One last thing - if my partner won't answer I just assume that it's mine to figure out for myself given the information I have at the time.  So if the supplements were out and the kids didn't do it, I'd assume she did and if I didn't want them messed with I might find another spot to keep them where she didn't have access.  I had to do this with my phone.  My partner kept reading my text messages and messing up my notifications so my responses to people were delayed.  I put a PIN back on my phone.

[Cat Familiar]

Here's an article about the silent treatment. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70004.0

It's not an easy thing to deal with and people who employ this strategy refuse to believe that they're being abusive, but they are.

You mention that things are getting progressively worse as you work on yourself. Unfortunately that's a common occurrence. Think of it from a systems point of view. If one part of the system changes, then the other parts have to adapt. It might take a while, but as you reduce conflict coming from your side, it will impact her and likely she will lessen the conflict that she's generating as well.

Walking away when she refused to respond to you was the right strategy. It seemed that she was looking for a fight and that by passive aggressively not responding to your questions, she was setting a trap for you to try and push her for a response and get angry when she didn't say anything. If that happened, then she could blame you for reacting, since she was doing "nothing".  

As hard and annoying as it is to ignore, if you don't give this behavior any energy and let the chips fall where they may, then it's likely that she will quit using this strategy.

[Woodchuck]

So... what does your T advise you "do" with stonewalling?

How many times repeat?

What do you say when disengaging?

Dude... .it's air conditioning.  There are windows... .there are towels to wipe perspiration.   

There seems to be a HUUUUUUUGGGGGGGEEEEEEE amount of focus on your part of the comfort of others... .when they don't seem to be particularly interested.

Can you think for a bit on where that comes from?

FF

FF-
My T emphasizes going and doing something soothing.  It makes sense and works to an extent.  I still have to really work to disengage mentally and emotionally.  I guess where it is difficult is when the stonewalling is used just because.   There is no associated conflict attached to it, like the two examples that I gave.  The issues were not revolving around any conflicts.  They were just simple/basic questions.  As far as repeating, I am not sure and I will usually just walk away or tell her to let me know when she is reafy to twlk and then walk away.  

The AC is really just a secondary issue.  Of she doesn’t want to use a car that has it, great.  My concern about others comfort was more related to the children.  With that being said, you are correct, I do have a HUGE ‘issue’ with being interested in other’s comfort and that is probably a learned coping behavior.  I have a hard time with saying no and being assertive.  My W is the exact opposite and when those two are combined, it makes for a bit of a mess when there is no mutual respect.  I probably further justify my passivity with things like a Bible verse that was discussed in another post recently.  ‘Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her’.   She has also used the leave and cleave verse over the years to demonstrate how she believes that she should be IT and I have fed into it.  

[Notwendy]

I think that leave and cleave message could be abused by someone who is self centered. Putting it in context- a grown man need to leave home and establish his primary family with his wife. However, that doesn't negate the commandment to honor your mother and father. I don't think this statement was meant that a man leaves and cuts off his parents as some of the pwBPD have insisted their spouses do.

Consider too, that in Biblical times people married very young and lived with their parents until marriage. I take the statement as " you are a man now" but back then that was probably early teens. Also everyone lived together in the same village as families. Mom and Dad were probably in the tent next door.

The Golden Rule is a good one. Would you want your son to be a Mama's boy? I don't think so. Would you want your son to cut contact or be distant from his parents once he is married? I don't think so either. Maybe a good rule of thumb is to not use the Bible to be hurtful to others, and that can include yourself.

[formflier]

Try this on for size... .

"Hey babe... .I've got a few important things to chat about.  Please let me know when you are ready to talk." 

Then hush... .

So... don't talk about car a/c, flying monkeys, black mold, black gold, bigfoot, chocolate milk, or her cooking habits.

A simple request.  I'm here and have a few things I'd like to talk about, please let me know when you can talk.

If she gives her attention... great... talk (with low expectations).

If she makes a choice not to have a conversation... .there are logical, natural and rational consequences of that choice for her and for you.

Do NOT save her from her choices.  Don't explain the consequences.  Let them happen as you live out your life.

I would guess that you should pick an activity close by that takes 5 or 10 minutes.  Such as getting icewater and sitting down to enjoy a slow drink, or brew and drink a cup of coffee... or something else like that.

Time it... (seriously)... .so that after X amount of minutes, your activity is done, she hasn't responded... .and you will move on with your life without her input.  No apologies... .her choice... you move on.

FF

[Woodchuck]

I think that leave and cleave message could be abused by someone who is self centered. Putting it in context- a grown man need to leave home and establish his primary family with his wife. However, that doesn't negate the commandment to honor your mother and father. I don't think this statement was meant that a man leaves and cuts off his parents as some of the pwBPD have insisted their spouses do.

Consider too, that in Biblical times people married very young and lived with their parents until marriage. I take the statement as " you are a man now" but back then that was probably early teens. Also everyone lived together in the same village as families. Mom and Dad were probably in the tent next door.

The Golden Rule is a good one. Would you want your son to be a Mama's boy? I don't think so. Would you want your son to cut contact or be distant from his parents once he is married? I don't think so either. Maybe a good rule of thumb is to not use the Bible to be hurtful to others, and that can include yourself.

Notwendy,
I think you make a very good point about not using the Bible or really any guidance to be hurtful.  I am a firm believer in 'removing the log from your own eye before trying to remove the speck from someone else's eye'.  I am far from perfect at following this in practice, but I do try.  I think you make some good points about looking at family dynamics and how they differ from when the text was written and now.  Bringing that up though would be JADEing and I don't want to do that.   It is pretty much futile and in the end just makes me feel worse.

Woodchuck

[Woodchuck]

Try this on for size... .

"Hey babe... .I've got a few important things to chat about.  Please let me know when you are ready to talk." 

Then hush... .

So... don't talk about car a/c, flying monkeys, black mold, black gold, bigfoot, chocolate milk, or her cooking habits.

A simple request.  I'm here and have a few things I'd like to talk about, please let me know when you can talk.

If she gives her attention... great... talk (with low expectations).

If she makes a choice not to have a conversation... .there are logical, natural and rational consequences of that choice for her and for you.

Do NOT save her from her choices.  Don't explain the consequences.  Let them happen as you live out your life.

I would guess that you should pick an activity close by that takes 5 or 10 minutes.  Such as getting icewater and sitting down to enjoy a slow drink, or brew and drink a cup of coffee... or something else like that.

Time it... (seriously)... .so that after X amount of minutes, your activity is done, she hasn't responded... .and you will move on with your life without her input.  No apologies... .her choice... you move on.

FF

FF-
I am very guilty of trying to save her from her choices.  I like your idea of approach.  The end result is the hard part.  I know that there will be quite a bit of just going ahead without any conversation and then there will be a storm afterwards.  I guess part of saving her from her choices is self preservation as well but that self preservation in the end really only ends up hurting more it seems.  I do need to employ the method that you outlined more though as it will most likely produce a healthier end result.  Thanks for sharing!

Woodchuck

[formflier]

When the storm comes... .why not skip it... .use an "umbrella"... .or "go inside"

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Like you, Woodchuck, I used to try and soothe and fix and take care of things. The end result was that my positive efforts were discredited, I was called controlling or manipulative, and my motives were attributed to be selfish or somehow otherwise negative.

When I started letting the chips fall where they may, things got better, oddly enough.