Struggling to use the tools: I need to do better

[Buzz2]

This is my first post here.  I became aware about a year ago that my husband has BPD & NPD and spent a lot of time on the Out of the Fog website and message board and then lurking here for the past few weeks.  Over the last year I feel I've gained leaps and bounds in identifying the issues and concerns that developed over the course of our 14 year relationship.  I won't go into exhaustive detail, but it took me quite a while to figure out that PD was the deal instead of alcoholism, bi-polar, etc.

I've been exhaustively reading and learning both online, in books, and with my therapist to do all I can to be the best I can be in this relationship, and frankly to decide if I should even be in this relationship.  We have a child together and her well-being is what drives most of my decisions and concerns.  At this point I've made the commitment to stay in the relationship as long as we can provide a healthy home life for her.  She is in therapy as well, dealing with general anxiety issues.  Her therapist just told me that my husband and I need to do a better job in dealing with our issues which will reduce her anxiety.

Here is my question and problem right now:  I know I need to do a much better job of using all of the tools I've learned (DEARMAN, SET, validation, etc.) but am struggling SIGNIFICANTLY with this.  I absolutely value and believe in these tools and know that to improve everyone's life in this home I need to do better.  My problem is that I'm so tired and sometimes overwhelmed and frequently feel defeated.  Sometimes it just feels like a lot of effort with so little reward.  I know I sound like such a martyr/victim when I say that, and it embarrases me greatly to even admit.  But I have to be honest if I want help.

Can anyone guide me here?  I know from reading the boards I'm not alone in this.  I really do want to do better.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[pearlsw]

Hi Buzz2,



Glad you felt comfortable enough to post! Having members who are engaged with the tools and want to talk about and use them is helpful for all of us!

I am here nearly everyday and I have to say I struggle with the tools as well. Somedays I am clear, other days, not so much. It takes a lot of mental focus. We all make mistakes.

I notice, much to my surprise, how invalidating I can be. I was raised to be a bit tough and suck it up a lot, and when I see my SO in his heightened emotional states I sometimes have trouble relating to him. At a certain point it is hard not to see him as a difficult person who is out to make my life difficult. He is manipulative and controlling at times, there is a LOT he does not understand (and likely never will) about healthy adult relationships, nevertheless I would prefer to treat him with kindness and compassion.

So, again, we all struggle.

What are the times you find it most difficult? How do you integrate the tools into your daily existence? What is your personal approach? (Maybe others will join and share their thoughts on these questions as well.)

One thing I recently realized is that I need to be validating with him at all times, not just be that way in the middle of him having a meltdown. I think by making some of these tools into just how we operate can make it easier. If we wait for a crisis I think we are more likely to either panic or fall back on much less effective ways of speaking.

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Buzz2]

Hi Pearl,

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.  From reading many of your other posts, I think we may be similar in perspective and/or our situations.  I've always appreciated your thoughtful responses.

In response to your questions:
What are the times you find it most difficult? How do you integrate the tools into your daily existence? What is your personal approach?

The times that are most difficult for me right now, I think, are the false accusations.  He's always been very jealous but I hadn't been accused for years of doing anything until recently.  We ran into a coworker of mine in the parking lot of the grocery store a few weeks ago (I hadn't seen him for a while) and we had a brief hug hello (customary in my workplace by all genders and ages).  This triggered my husband BIG TIME and resulted in now weeks of accusations, even digging up old beefs from literally 10 or more years ago that had been resolved at the time.  He has no memory of our resolving the issues but has a clear memory of my "inappropriate" behavior and its impact on him.  His "memory" has even been enhanced to add new "details" to the situation.

Let me just say that I've NEVER, EVER done anything inappropriate with anyone outside my marriage.  Period.  Obviously that is beside the point with him and his illness, but just to clarify for our purposes.  I did validate to him that I understood he felt hurt about the hug given that we engage in little affection in our marriage.  That was where my validation ended.

My triggers in general are being falsely accused, mind-reading (99% of the time he is completely off base), being held completely responsible for the lack of sex/affection in our relationship in specific and our marital problems in general.  I totally get that these are indicative of BPD/NPD mindset and behavior, but it's tough to take.

I want to validate, I want to be calm and steadfast, I want to stay engaged in my marriage, but I find it so so difficult in the face of some of these behaviors.

As far as how I integrate these tools and what my personal approach is - I'm not sure.  I need to ponder those questions more.

[braveSun]

Hello Buzz2   

I would like to join pearlsw and to welcome you on the boards. I am sorry you are in such a tough place with your husband. False accusations seem to be one of the hallmark of BPD/NPD. I am struggling with them too. It has a way to throw us off guard. It's definitely tough to take, yes. It's normal to feel tired and defeated at times, so true.

One thing you may want to start with is to make sure you don't add fuel to the fire.

When our loved one gets going with what they feel is real, and we know them to be off, we don't want to start adding to the problem by enabling the unvalidable (going down the rabbit hole with them), yet we may want to validate the validable (going straight to their feelings, not discussing the facts).

At least to start.

Another important concept is for us to not JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain). This can be counter intuitive for us nons. Because we're used to explain our point of view, bring in logical facts, and see the other person accepting truth that way. That doesn't work with our loved ones wBPD/NPD. In fact it makes things worst.

Think of it as if your husband would have burnt skin and some mosquitoes would sting him. It would appear that just a small swat would take care of the annoyance. But for our badly burnt pwBPD, both the mosquitoes and the swats are incredibly painful. So if we did just tell them 'no big deal', or did carry on with our own mosquito bites, we would be invalidating them by default.

So it's best to learn to not JADE.

That's a start. And like pearlsw is bringing up, the overall validation idea is that it is something we develop overtime. It's more of a daily practice.

Can you think of an example of where you feel defeated?

Brave

[Buzz2]

Hi Brave,

Yes, sadly I am VERY familiar with the JADE concept.  I am so good at it, !

I have worked really hard not to get myself in a spot where I resort to JADE-ing, but it seems a default mode for me if I'm tired, stressed, or just not paying good attention to what's happening. 

Here's kind of what it sounds like:

Him: You friended a guy on Facebook 10 years ago that you went to college with.  I was so angry at the time I couldn't talk about it!  I'm still really angry about it because it was never resolved.

Me:  I can hear that you are angry and probably hurt.  I remember us having a long conversation about this and working it out/resolving it at the time.

Him: I never resolved it!  I was too angry!  You just had to contact your f* friend!  That was a horrible thing to do to me! 

Me:  Whoa - I'm not going to have a conversation where I feel accused and defensive.

Him:  So you won't talk about it?  How are we ever going to resolve something if you won't talk about it?  That's the only way I can resolve it.

Me:  I haven't found those types of conversations to work out well between us.  I get that you are hurt and there's nothing I can do about the past other than acknowledge your feelings.  But I'm not going to have a conversation about it.

Him:  Then you don't want to resolve it!  How is our marriage ever going to work if you won't talk about things?  Fine - just forget it!  There's no point in talking about it.

Then there proceeds several hours of hostile silent treatment and eventually he tells me how much he loves me and tries to hug and kiss me - meanwhile I'm hurt and dazed and DO NOT want hugs, kisses, and I love you's.

So basically my problem is that I try to validate and then bow out of the conversations and then somehow I end up in these arguments when I had the best of intentions to NOT argue.  Sigh.  I think I just don't do it "correctly" and then I end up feeling exhausted trying to do it "right".  Then I feel defeated and hopeless.

[desperate.wife]

Hi Buzz2 

I understand how you feel. I keep behaving like always, like I would with any other person, still hoping for normal communication, normal reactions. Just this morning I failed validating, and he got angry and I so upset that went to cry in the lake. We had so so morning but managed to go outside to enjoy family time before he had to go. He had his chess book and was reading it. Not exactly family time, but ok, he was there. With my girl we enjoyed water, and listened to morning sounds, we tried to identify what we heard. I felt relaxed, almost happy. Out of water, I asked him how he was feeling. He was in his phone then. He said, it was good morning, so he gave 6/10. (It was not really convincing), I put head on his shoulder admiring view and closeness of my man, and he was playing online chess. He put his one hand in pocket; I walked away to my kid. Didn't feel really welcomed by my husband. But ok. He plays. Then minute later he just starts being angry, shaking his phone; he made mistake and it was my fault, each time I came to him he would make mistake. He was wining; I shouldn’t disturb him when he is playing chess. Instead of just saying: I am sorry, I understand how important it is to you, I just went on that how can I know what you are doing, texting, browsing, playing, you are always on your phone, and this was supposed to be family time... .And I couldn’t help the anger I got, I went back to the water and cried watching the clouds revealing landscape of other shore. Then our girl got wet with all her clothes and we were mobilised for situation, and went home, he insisted I go to shop, as I wanted before, even it was time he said he would leave. I think he wanted to do right by me, and give me more freedom. He is trying. And right now I don't know weather to apologize to over reacting or don't mention it at all. Should I text him, or give him space. So I don’t succeed being bigger person.

I've been exhaustively reading and learning both online, in books, and with my therapist to do all I can to be the best I can be in this relationship, and frankly to decide if I should even be in this relationship.  We have a child together and her well-being is what drives most of my decisions and concerns.  At this point I've made the commitment to stay in the relationship as long as we can provide a healthy home life for her.  She is in therapy as well, dealing with general anxiety issues.  Her therapist just told me that my husband and I need to do a better job in dealing with our issues which will reduce her anxiety.

Just yesterday, I was thinking about my childhood. It was really good, good memories, but I also remember all the fights of my parents especially at the beginning of every vacation or season holidays. I was feeling really bad when they fought. It didn't last long, and after was all good times, but I remember it. I wander if it had any part of me being so insecure and anxiuos. Now either I try to do nothing to avoid conflict, or I attack back with anger. None of it is healthy. I worry about my kid too. She is 3 and already very sensitive to our issues. I don't want to fight in front of her, or be upset. She understands everything and tries to fix it. It is not her job. It is serious thing parents not happy in front of a kid.

Here is my question and problem right now:  I know I need to do a much better job of using all of the tools I've learned (DEARMAN, SET, validation, etc.) but am struggling SIGNIFICANTLY with this.  I absolutely value and believe in these tools and know that to improve everyone's life in this home I need to do better.  My problem is that I'm so tired and sometimes overwhelmed and frequently feel defeated.  Sometimes it just feels like a lot of effort with so little reward.  I know I sound like such a martyr/victim when I say that, and it embarrases me greatly to even admit.  But I have to be honest if I want help.

 

It is my problem too. There is nothing to be ashamed (I tell to myself :d). It does feel like too much effort in return of more disappointment, it doesn't motivate to use any of these tools.
I am myself too big of a mess right now. But like you, I want to try for our daughter. Just this January I had no idea BPD existed... .And here we are now, fighting to survive. I am looking forward to what others can advise you. You started a great topic. 

braveSun has really good explanations. It reminds me how things are for him. I keep forgetting. I need to read about BPD and how they see the world everyday, then I do better. Once I stop reading, I forget how he is actually feeling and start expecting things to be normal again. But I get tired reading all the time about it. Ahh...

I have worked really hard not to get myself in a spot where I resort to JADE-ing, but it seems a default mode for me if I'm tired, stressed, or just not paying good attention to what's happening. 

<... .>
 Then I feel defeated and hopeless.

Default mode, that’s the words I was looking for to explain my reactions... .I hope we will succeed customising it

desperate.housewife

[braveSun]

Thanks Buzz2 and desperate.wife for bringing your experiences into this question. It's so nice to see new people come in and take part of the discussions. Because we are on Buzz2's thread I'll answer with her situation, but please feel free to jump in and add your thoughts anytime, as this can help broaden our understanding.

I have worked really hard not to get myself in a spot where I resort to JADE-ing, but it seems a default mode for me if I'm tired, stressed, or just not paying good attention to what's happening. 

I will come back to the scenario you describe. First thing, I would ask myself how do I feel right now. Being tired, hungry, thirsty is not really a good base for talking about tricky emotional topics with a pwBPD. It took me a while to realize that I was needing to focus a bit more on my self-care for a while, so I could get to a place of more peace inside. As the healthi(er) of the two of us, we need to be able to modulate our emotions better than our loved ones, and it's so easy for us to drive ourselves to the ground by trying all kinds of things, and ending up depleted. This definitely needs patience to succeed.

Do you mind me asking how is your self-care these days?

Sometimes we think of self-care as 'me-time', and that is a good part of it, but sometimes, especially with young kids under our care, we might have to start with some basic areas like getting a good night sleep, exercising, healthy meals, a cup of tea now and than in quiet, that sort of things.

Any thought?

Brave

[Buzz2]

Desperate and Brave,

Thank you for continuing to respond in this thread as it is my biggest hurdle right now.  It means a lot to know folks not only understand and support but don't judge.  I want to learn, but it's hard being open and vulnerable, even cloaked in an alias on a private message board!

Do you mind me asking how is your self-care these days?

Sometimes we think of self-care as 'me-time', and that is a good part of it, but sometimes, especially with young kids under our care, we might have to start with some basic areas like getting a good night sleep, exercising, healthy meals, a cup of tea now and than in quiet, that sort of things.

Any thought?

Brave - you asked me about this and it is an excellent question!  I have been seeing a therapist for about a year and a half (she is the main reason I finally saw the PD) and she has worked with me a lot on self care.  I would say it is her biggest concern for me.  Our marriage counselor (we saw for a few months) also talked to me about it at the time.  I also focused in on it from reading "Stop Caretaking the Borderline/Narcissist" - my copy is highlighted and underlined and basically one of my "reference" manuals in my life now.  I also did a phone consultation with the author and she emphasized some areas of self-care to address.

Having said all that, it's a challenge!  Being a parent and working full-time as well as being in a relationship with someone who doesn't operate as a partner in our house, life, etc., means there is a lot of responsibility and pressure on me.  Plus, as a woman, this is society's invisible expectation/demand and I learned it well. 

My first step in boundary setting for my own good and the good of our relationship has been around sleep.  Initially I told him (several months ago now) that I needed to get better sleep so I could function better.  His issue is that I need "more sleep than the average person".  I can see now that dealing with all this emotional stuff probably means that is true.  Anyway, I told him he couldn't touch me anymore when I'm sleeping as this has been the biggest barrier in my getting sleep.  I've become so anxious - almost allergic - around being touched in bed and woken up that anytime he even rests a hand on me I can't sleep.  This boundary of course set off a huge round of dysregulation and countermoves, but I stuck with it because I just have to sleep better. 

This helped, until it didn't.  Then I moved to the couch but he became so unstable that he decided to sleep downstairs on a futon (not terribly comfortable).  This triggered insomnia for him which he attempted to regulate through nasty behavior toward both me and my daughter - to get me to change back.  When that didn't work, he switched to loving behavior.  He says he only sleeps well when we sleep together.  Of course he does.  When you use someone else to regulate, I'm sure that's true.  Anyway, I moved down to the futon and he moved back to bed, but I negotiated this with him using DEARMAN (I think it was DEARMAN; I get these acronyms mixed up sometimes).  He handled it fairly well, for him.

I don't sleep great on the futon and it won't be a long term solution, but I do sleep better.  I'm thinking of going ahead and getting an actual small bed.  This will be another round of dysregulation I will have to prepare for.

My eating habits are not too bad but I really need to do better with exercise.  Unfortunately my motivation level is as low as my energy level sometimes.  My doctor said as long as my cortisol levels stay high exercise might not be the best for me.  So I try to meditate and relax.  I read a lot (also a bone of contention with my husband as it doesn't involve him) and have started getting manicures and pedicures again.  I even got a couple of massages in the last couple of months!  I have to be careful because money is a huge problem in my home and I don't want to create more financial dependency than is already there.

I've gone on for a bit here - hope this helps clarify. 

[Chosen]

Buzz2,

My problem is that I'm so tired and sometimes overwhelmed and frequently feel defeated.  Sometimes it just feels like a lot of effort with so little reward.  I know I sound like such a martyr/victim when I say that, and it embarrases me greatly to even admit.  But I have to be honest if I want help.

Hi, welcome to this site where nobody wants to be, and I completely echo how you feel.  I've been on and off on here for a few years (actually, I was here for an intensive period a few years back, then I used the tools and things got better, then I kind of used the tools less, and now here I am again), and I find that it's hardest to use the tools when we are feeling overwhelmed ourselves.  For me, when I'm in a situation similar to you- being accused (for me it's usually not completely false, but accusations blown way out of proportion, or false assumptions of my intentions), I find it hard to use the tools.  It's easier to use them when he dysregulates and the cause is unrelated to me (ha. ha.  But it always comes back to me).

BUT, we have to remember that those are precisely the times we need to use the tools the most.  Some members here have suggested that we read and practice the tools on good days, NOT on the bad.  We have to make it second nature to us.  For example, I know I'm by nature quite defensive, so not JADEing to me is not natural.  If I don't do it on a good day, I won't be able to do it when H is dysregulating and I have all these hurtful comments thrown at myself. 

Like you, I want my relationship to be better.  I am not satisfied with the current state of my relationship, the way we interact.  And unfortunately, relationships with pwBPDs do not come naturally, and they don't come easy.  The way I see it, I have to put work in anyway, and if I practice the tools, as least it has damage-preventing properties, which is always better than damage control.  That's how I push myself to learn and use the tools... .a bit out of fear I guess (fearing his outbursts as it is tiring and hurtful, and also fearing that our relationship will disintegrate).  It is tiring though, and sometimes I feel unfair, like why do I have to learn all these tools when he won't acknowledge it, he will still see me as a bad person, and it doesn't seem to be improving the relationship? 

But I chose him, and I'm not a victim in this, so I have to do whatever it takes to improve the relationship.

[braveSun]

Thanks Buzz2 for sharing about your self-care. You sound like you have made really good stretches in that department. Congratulations! 

I totally see what you mean about the expenses for pampering ourselves, and the lack of time to do extensive things to really bring us a sense of peace, or relief, or even rest. One of the concepts I found the most practical with this is I let 'the little things count'. I have a tight budget personally, so I am very aware. I believe that for many of us nons, we don't necessarily have self-care as as established habit in our lives, so we have to learn what it is, and what it means to us on a personal level. It's very much a process.

This helped, until it didn't. 

This has been my experience very much. Some things I have done have helped more than others, and some would help for a time, than not so much later. It's a good thing that you are exploring further regarding the small bed for downstairs. If buying a whole bed might be too expensive, did you consider adding some cushioning to the futon, like adding some good foam layer? Or maybe would your H be interested in pooling money together to get the new bed, if it's presented as a positive addition to both members of the couple, when sleep gets disturbed?

Other members, please chime in. I think possibly your husband's fear of abandonment might be triggered by the idea of you two having to sleep separately, and if you could bring it up as a win-win situation, were maybe you could cuddle before falling asleep or on waking up in the morning, than you could preserve the intimacy without missing on  the good sleep you deserve?

[braveSun]

I find that it's hardest to use the tools when we are feeling overwhelmed ourselves.  For me, when I'm in a situation similar to you- being accused (for me it's usually not completely false, but accusations blown way out of proportion, or false assumptions of my intentions), I find it hard to use the tools.  It's easier to use them when he dysregulates and the cause is unrelated to me (ha. ha.  But it always comes back to me).

I agree with Chosen. It's easier when the cause is not us. That may be a good way to start testing your skills right there.

I find it hard to use as well when my spouse is projecting intentions I never had and misinterpreting my actions in a story that has nothing to do with me. It's so invalidating to us nons!... I've been dealing with difficult paranoid thinking that led to actions putting me in quite tight spots at times.

I like the nuance Chosen brings because something I found frustrating when I started to really think about what I wanted to validate in a dysregulating situation, I went straight for the meaning of my spouse's word as a non would interpret them. At face value. I did a whole lot of explaining and arguing in the beginning. (JADE) Because I was talking to a 'non' in my mind. Like it took me quite a shock or two or three to really get it that my spouse was not thinking like me at all. Yet, there was some grain of truth in the middle of all that and that bothered me very much that I would not be able to connect with my partner and develop better intimacy. I'm still learning. It's very much a work in progress. Think of it like when you started to ride a bicycle. It takes a sense of a coordination and for us to get going a bit.

[braveSun]

Here's kind of what it sounds like:

Him: You friended a guy on Facebook 10 years ago that you went to college with.  I was so angry at the time I couldn't talk about it!  I'm still really angry about it because it was never resolved.

Me:  I can hear that you are angry and probably hurt.  I remember us having a long conversation about this and working it out/resolving it at the time.

Him: I never resolved it!  I was too angry! You just had to contact your f* friend! That was a horrible thing to do to me! 

Me:  Whoa - I'm not going to have a conversation where I feel accused and defensive.

Him: So you won't talk about it? 

Here I see something quite common, where the pwBPD is starting the conversation with an 'I', and before finishing the sentence, switched on to blame the partner. In BPD language, this would mean something like "I could not resolve it than because I was too angry and now you opened the can of worms for me again."

As nons, we tend to catch on the second part of the sentence, where the accusation is. Because naturally it's not our truth. It's his job to take care of his angry feelings. Not ours.

While this is a fact, we tend to forget that for our loved ones wBPD, feelings = facts.

The idea is to validate the validable, and drop the unvalidable. Don't give it too much attention. The least possible.

In this case maybe you would feel too raw to respond with empathy. Than in this case taking a pause can help with regrouping yourself, and let him think about it some more.

You can remember you have a phone call to make. Or you need to go run an errand. But you will come back to him about this in ___________ minutes. Having this conversation with him is important to you.

There it takes out the charge for a little while.

Than when ready you go back, and address his feelings about this. Stick to that.

Here is an example of SET.

S (support): I can hear that you are angry and probably hurt.  I remember us having a long conversation about this and working it out/resolving it at the time.
E (empathy): It's normal to have a bit of fear this time around. I would feel a bit antsy myself if you were to meet someone from your past like this.
T (truth) : I really am so not interested in other guys. You are my only one and I chose you. I was just thinking this afternoon, how about ____(fill in with an activity you both enjoy doing together)____ tomorrow night?

Is that easy to do? Not really. Especially not at the beginning of trying to do this. It's counter intuitive. That's why it's important for us non to have well established routines of self-care. Because we need to learn to regroup.

There are many mindfulness meditations that helps a lot with that. I use an app called Insight Timer. Someone else mentioned another one called Calm. Another person will have a walk in the woods nearby. Or going to sit by the water for a moment. Or taking a free or low fee class at a community center. Or breathing exercises.

Or you could just go somewhere and read for 20 minutes. Why not?

Any of these practices can help with integrating more calm into our being.

Does that help?

[Buzz2]

Brave & Chosen,

Thank you again for chiming in.  Those concepts helped me a lot, especially the idea of focusing more on validating and using the tools when things are going well and not worrying or judging myself so much when they aren't.  He is doing better right now (we just took a two day family vacation and it went well) so I can work on this today!

I have had to take a good hard look at myself and why I am struggling so much to validate right now.  I think round three or four of that same argument (the one I gave an example of before) really took it out of me.  I'm trying harder to shake it off and rebound more quickly, if I can.  Self-care is what I need to do when I'm struggling with that, I just don't always know WHAT will help.  And sometimes it just takes time.

I understand - from experience - that my need for boundaries and self-care trigger his feelings of abandonment big time, but it's such a balance and I can't always meet everyone's needs.  I've had to put myself first (not always my forte).  I try to validate when/if I can, but sometimes I'm just tired.  So tired.

[braveSun]

Self-care is what I need to do when I'm struggling with that, I just don't always know WHAT will help.  And sometimes it just takes time.

I understand - from experience - that my need for boundaries and self-care trigger his feelings of abandonment big time, but it's such a balance and I can't always meet everyone's needs.  I've had to put myself first (not always my forte).  I try to validate when/if I can, but sometimes I'm just tired.  So tired.

Yes, yes and yes   
I can relate to not knowing quite what I need to do next for self-care. I have that too sometimes. It's a discovery process. Sometimes it takes a while to just feel what I need. It's a skill to develop. Keep at it. You're on your way. Eventually it will get easier.

Over time also, when your husband will see that your self-care makes you a better listener, he might feel a little safer around it. I saw a change with my spouse when I started to say something like 'I am willing to talk about this later when things are calmer.' Without pointing at who needed to be calmer.

Eventually you are doing this for you, not for him. So it's important to stick to this.

Hope your sleep is better.

Brave

[Chosen]

Buzz2, being in a relationship with a pwBPD is really tiring at times.  One thing I find that helps me is to let go of my expectations, to keep it low until the storm passes, so to speak.  I'm the sort of person who wants to make things right immediately; I hate having him upset and dysregulated, and I used to try and do a "quick fix", then get frustrated internally when that doesn't happen.  Now I know that he needs his own time to calm down, and in that period, I can apologise if I did something wrong, but otherwise I just try not to make things worse.  He will say horrible stuff then, bring up past hurts etc, but really the only thing I can do is to validate, and just let him be (if need be, stop giving responses to things that are invalid, in order to prevent circular arguments).