Fair Finances - When Should I Stop Being a 'Paycheck'?

[Woodchuck]

I will try to keep this brief.  Also, this may be better suited in the 'detaching' board but I was not sure if it would be better suited here or there. 

I am coming to the end of a 21 year career in the next few months.  I have been the primary bread winner for the entire time that we have been married.  I have been perfectly ok with this.  It has been difficult at times to only have one income but we have made it work.  My W has spent several years homeschooling the children and being a homemaker.  She has a degree in the medical field and has worked off and on over the years.  More recently she has been working more and was recently hired as a supervisor/manager for the company that she has been employed with for the last year or two.  I have been working on building a business over the last few years and the plan has been that she will start working full time when I retire and I will be able to focus on my business full time.  Almost all (99%) of the money that she has made over the last several years, she has put away in her own account.  I am not certain what the balance is that she has accrued but I know that it is quite substantial.  There have been several occasions where she has offered to pay for things but then never followed through.  For example, my vehicle has been in sore need of a paint job for a few years.  She told me a year or so ago that she wanted to take care of it for me.  I told her that would be great but that was about the end of it.  I mentioned it a few times over the last several months and received no response.  I ended up taking it in and getting it done myself.  She has told me that the money that she has been putting away is a cushion for when I retire.  I have been fine with that and therefore have not asked her to contribute financially.  Until about 6-8 months ago, I had a joint account with her that I would put money in for her to use for whatever she needed.  Once she continued with constantly telling me that she didn't need me or want me to do anything for her, I stopped putting money in the account.  My thought process was that she was earning her own money and therefore didn't need me to supplement what she made.  I take care of all the bills so the money I was providing was not 'needed' for anything.  Anyway, all that is really kind of 'small potatoes'.

She sent me a text this morning telling me that she was not going to support this family when I retire.  I take this to mean that she has changed her mind about providing the primary income as the plan has been for quite some time.  I simply responded, 'ok, thanks for letting me know' and left it at that.  I felt like it was an intentionally inflammatory message and refused to engage or take the bait.  I guess my core question is how to go about determining where to draw the line?  I currently pay for almost everything.  She will stop at the store for groceries on occasion and fill up the car with gas if needed but that is about the extent of it.  I pay for her phone, car, car insurance, mortgage, vast majority of the groceries, all the utility bills, maintenance and the list goes on and on and on.  I have felt like nothing more than a paycheck for quite some time and the message that she sent today really solidified that.  I don't want to be spiteful or start a 'war' but I also do not want to be walked all over or taken complete advantage of.  I know this is really a personal decision but I don't know if it is wise to tell her that I will be cancelling her phone and insurance etc and she will be responsible for that. 

It seems to me that in a 'normal', healthy relationship, both partners would chip in financially as well as many other ways.  This is far from that and I am really at a loss. 

Woodchuck

[Notwendy]

I agree that if both parents are working, they should share expenses to the extent that they can. It is possible that one person earns more than the other, so it may not be 50-50 but still shared.

If one person is the primary caregiver, a stay at home parent, then they may not be able to contribute much. If they earn occasional pocket money, like being a substitute teacher or occasionally providing child care for another parent, then I don't think it is an issue if they use it for something they want, but as with your wife, she has a substantial income and I don't think it is fair for her to not contribute.

The problem is going to be how your wife sees it.

 Do you file jointly? In this case, you would know what her income is and she would know yours. Any bank accounts that earn interest would need to be declared.

One reply could be- I see you want a different financial arrangement than what we agreed on before. I would like to sit down with you and discuss the ideas you have. In return, you set your own ideas. One would be to stop paying for her phone, car, car insurance- if these are things she uses for her job and can pay for them herself.

On a larger scale, she seems to be drawing a line in the sand- refusing to discuss things with you. It may be time to ask her what her ideas are about the marriage as it is.

You haven't started a war by choosing to not have her walk all over you.

[Woodchuck]

I agree that if both parents are working, they should share expenses to the extent that they can. It is possible that one person earns more than the other, so it may not be 50-50 but still shared.

If one person is the primary caregiver, a stay at home parent, then they may not be able to contribute much. If they earn occasional pocket money, like being a substitute teacher or occasionally providing child care for another parent, then I don't think it is an issue if they use it for something they want, but as with your wife, she has a substantial income and I don't think it is fair for her to not contribute.

The problem is going to be how your wife sees it.

 Do you file jointly? In this case, you would know what her income is and she would know yours. Any bank accounts that earn interest would need to be declared.

One reply could be- I see you want a different financial arrangement than what we agreed on before. I would like to sit down with you and discuss the ideas you have. In return, you set your own ideas. One would be to stop paying for her phone, car, car insurance- if these are things she uses for her job and can pay for them herself.

On a larger scale, she seems to be drawing a line in the sand- refusing to discuss things with you. It may be time to ask her what her ideas are about the marriage as it is.

You haven't started a war by choosing to not have her walk all over you.

Notwendy-
We do file jointly, however, all I ever see is the forms for filing taxes and those only show the interest that is earned.  I could call the bank and find out what the balances are as my name is on the account as well.  I could write checks from that account as well, though that would backfire.  At the end of the day though, it really isn't the money that is the issue.  It is the attitude. 
I agree that she is drawing a line in the sand and fully anticipate that she will refuse to discuss anything to include her ideas about the marriage.  Her response, if she gives any would be to tell me that I am free to do whatever I want and that if I leave I will probably have a new girlfriend within a week or two. 

Woodchuck

[Notwendy]

I agree but if she’s working - isn’t there a form from the employer reporting wages earned ? I don’t know if you are in the US - that’s a W2 form and reported on a 1040 form that both spouses sign. Filing jointly you know the total wages reported and so youd have to know hers.

[Woodchuck]

I agree but if she’s working - isn’t there a form from the employer reporting wages earned ? I don’t know if you are in the US - that’s a W2 form and reported on a 1040 form that both spouses sign. Filing jointly you know the total wages reported and so youd have to know hers.

Oh, yes, I am aware of what she makes and she has communicated about what she anticipates making with the job she started a few months ago.  The idea was that the job that she started combined with my retirement would be about equal with what I am currently making. 

[Woodchuck]

I asked her if she was wanting to separate finances and expenses.  Her response was that if I don not wish to continue as we are now that she will take the kids and move out.

[Notwendy]

Do you think that is a serious threat she is making?

Think of the logistics- she'd have to find a place, pay for it, move the kids. Then, there is the legal aspect. A spouse can not just do that. As a parent, she can not take the children from you. I am not a lawyer, but I don' think she can do that.

You may want to reconsider the retirement plans. I don't know how old you are, but the plan you had with your wife doesn't seem to be in place anymore. It may be in your best interest to keep working and make a different plan.

[Woodchuck]

Do you think that is a serious threat she is making?

Think of the logistics- she'd have to find a place, pay for it, move the kids. Then, there is the legal aspect. A spouse can not just do that. As a parent, she can not take the children from you. I am not a lawyer, but I don' think she can do that.

You may want to reconsider the retirement plans. I don't know how old you are, but the plan you had with your wife doesn't seem to be in place anymore. It may be in your best interest to keep working and make a different plan.

It is very hard to say.  The logistics would be relatively easy as she has close to six figures if not more available to her.  The legal aspect is definitely an issue but I don't think she cares about that, until she is held accountable by a legal authority. 
As far as my retirement plans.  I already have an approved retirement date.  I am close to 40 and reversing that retirement pretty much takes an act of congress at this point.  The only option I have is to start looking for a job.

[Notwendy]

It looks like your wife has changed her mind about the financial plans for your retirement. My only advice would be to not rely on an unreliable person for your financial needs. I think you already have a preview of how it would be if you did.

Since she has her own account you may want to consider one for you. This is not my idea of how finances are shared in a marriage but in a marriage to someone with dysfunction it could be necessary for your own well being. This is not a cooperative situation.

[GaGrl]

If your name is on that account, you can take 50% at the time you file for a separation agreement, then let the legalities sort it out.

Is she entitled to a portion of your retirement/annuity?

[braveSun]

I'll chime in in agreement with Notwendy that in a situation with an unstable partner, it's best to have at least some  separate finances. Maybe one idea would be for you to consider redrawing the plans regarding your business/retirement arrangements, but not so much as an 'she wants' vs 'I want' approach. More like with a broader birds' view of your whole family story over the years.

However, I would be careful to not bring this up for a little while, to let the steam off a bit. Than prepare for a conversation where you both can talk on a calmer basis.

If I think BPD, I'd add to go gently with your approach on this, like with addressing the feelings behind the moves.

Definitely set a separate personal account and start to chip into it now. But also prepare to review your contributions over the years, hers, the kids future needs, all of it. Might take a bit of mulling over on both her and your part.

Might take a few, shortish conversations with lots of breaks/validation in between.

I'd avoid warring/compulsive moves about this (like she cuts something, you cut something else in response). I'd take a more steady, forthcoming approach where I know what I want and I don't ask her if she wants to do what I would like to do. Just prepare and present your intent. But be clear about the whole story for the whole family over time.

Brave

[Notwendy]

I encourage you to seek out another job while you are still relatively young for reasons in addition to the finances. While you may be looking forward to some time not working, receiving a pension gives you some financial room to seek out a job that could be less strenuous than the one you have now, if it pays a bit less and  if you do enjoy your job- then seek out a similar position.

I have been both in and out of the work force, and found that I am much happier when I am working. I was a stay at home mother for a while, and felt envious of my friends who did that and felt appreciated at home. I did not. Being that I tended to be a pushover, I felt more like a servant than a wife. Work had provided a sense of validation and reinforcement for a job well done. While I think ideally we should not rely on others for our sense of self worth, our relationships have an influence on us. There was resentment on both sides- I am sure my H felt like a paycheck at times, but feeling like a servant isn't a great situation either and that didn't make for a happy relationship. When we feel resentful, we aren't able to see the contribution the other person makes and show appreciation for that.

From what you have posted about the things your wife says to you, I would be hesitant to give up an area of life where you receive some positive feedback. Having a work schedule means you have a job to do- you need to dress appropriately, have a schedule. Without this, you are available 24/7 and if you tend to be a pushover too, it will be difficult to carve time for yourself or your hobbies. There is also a power imbalance when one spouse is working more than the other- "I earn the money" was a common default for any disagreements.

40 is also young and you have many years ahead of you. Your financial arrangement with your wife could change- and you see that it already has. You may need to go back to work in the future- and it is harder to enter the workforce over age 50.  Age discrimination is real and a gap in your work experience could be a set back. If your current job is strenuous or you dislike it, then retiring from that at 40 make sense, but this could be an opportunity to start something you may enjoy- using the skills you have now and even gaining new ones- taking classes, crossing over to a different career.

[Woodchuck]

If your name is on that account, you can take 50% at the time you file for a separation agreement, then let the legalities sort it out.

Is she entitled to a portion of your retirement/annuity?

Gagrl-
In the location that I am living, the separation/divorce rules are a bit odd.  There is no formal separation agreement but there is a requirement to be separated for 12 months prior to filing for divorce.  The separation has to be proven by showing that either each person was living in separate houses or a third party verifying on a regular basis that the couple is living apart in the same house (not sleeping in the same room, eating meals together etc).  Once that 12 months has passed, you can file for divorce.  Of course, there is the option to commit perjury and have everyone testify that there has been a 12 month separation.

As far as my retirement, she is entitled to 50% of it and there is really no way around that.  On top of the retirement, she is also entitled to something that is called survivor benefits.  This is a program that I am required to pay into upon retirement unless she agrees to not sign up for it.  The program is set up so she will receive 50% of my retirement pay if/when I die until she dies.  This program costs about $170 a month and you are locked into it for 30 years once the program starts, which is immediately after retirement.

[Woodchuck]

I encourage you to seek out another job while you are still relatively young for reasons in addition to the finances. While you may be looking forward to some time not working, receiving a pension gives you some financial room to seek out a job that could be less strenuous than the one you have now, if it pays a bit less and  if you do enjoy your job- then seek out a similar position.

I have been both in and out of the work force, and found that I am much happier when I am working. I was a stay at home mother for a while, and felt envious of my friends who did that and felt appreciated at home. I did not. Being that I tended to be a pushover, I felt more like a servant than a wife. Work had provided a sense of validation and reinforcement for a job well done. While I think ideally we should not rely on others for our sense of self worth, our relationships have an influence on us. There was resentment on both sides- I am sure my H felt like a paycheck at times, but feeling like a servant isn't a great situation either and that didn't make for a happy relationship. When we feel resentful, we aren't able to see the contribution the other person makes and show appreciation for that.

From what you have posted about the things your wife says to you, I would be hesitant to give up an area of life where you receive some positive feedback. Having a work schedule means you have a job to do- you need to dress appropriately, have a schedule. Without this, you are available 24/7 and if you tend to be a pushover too, it will be difficult to carve time for yourself or your hobbies. There is also a power imbalance when one spouse is working more than the other- "I earn the money" was a common default for any disagreements.

40 is also young and you have many years ahead of you. Your financial arrangement with your wife could change- and you see that it already has. You may need to go back to work in the future- and it is harder to enter the workforce over age 50.  Age discrimination is real and a gap in your work experience could be a set back. If your current job is strenuous or you dislike it, then retiring from that at 40 make sense, but this could be an opportunity to start something you may enjoy- using the skills you have now and even gaining new ones- taking classes, crossing over to a different career.

Notwendy-
I do intend to start looking for a job.  With that said, the business that I have been building for the last few years is what I really want to do.  I get a lot of good feedback from my customers on what I provide and I thoroughly enjoy it 99% of the time.  I believe that it is possible that I could make enough to survive on if I worked the business full time but there is no guarantee, that is why we had the plan that we had.  For the past year, I have had more business than I can keep up with and I can only imagine what I could do once I am not working the job I have now 12 hours a day.  The problem is that there is no guaranteed income with the business and I have bills that I have to pay.  Everything is in my name and therefore I am solely responsible for making the payments.  If I miss payments, it is my credit that is going to be affected, not hers.  I have really looked forward to working on my business full time.  I have invested heavily into getting set up so I can do it full time and now I feel like I am stuck because the money that I have put into setting everything up could have been put aside 'for a rainy day'.  I have invested probably over $30k in the last few years into equipment etc so I could hit the ground running when I retire.  Now it looks like that was not necessarily a wise choice.

Woodchuck

[Notwendy]

I don't have business background, but I do know that small businesses deal with fluctuating income and some risk but can also possibly be very successful. I think you are able to decide on how much risk is possible or you should take a back up job, but it is good that you are retiring to an occupation you enjoy.