Feeling Increasingly Triggered by uBPDxw

[mama-wolf]

This topic came up in another discussion, and I felt like it needed it's own thread.

I find that I'm getting triggered more frequently and more intensely in my interactions with uBPDxw than I was before.  It's frustrating, exhausting, scary, and confusing.  I hate that I can even be triggered in the first place, don't understand quite what it is that is triggering me, barely have a grasp on what it's doing to me, and really wish it would stop.  I also would have thought this would decrease with the reduced contact I have with uBPDxw, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Bringing some of the discussion from the other thread here... .

for me the conditioning was if I didn't do what my EX wanted there would be  to pay and she would destroy the relationship or rage or what was more difficult for me to cope with... .  covertly attack my self worth... .self esteeem.

what I found was that over time all those very covert subtle remarks had added up... .  and that I was starting to flinch in advance.  before the actual comment or action I was ... .as you said... .triggered

babyducks, I relate to this so much.  I know I am anticipating the attack well before it happens.  Unfortunately, it still happens in most cases, which really only strengthens the reaction on my part.

I didn't find it easy to stop being triggered by contact.   and I found it difficult to understand triggers and what the meant and how to respond to them.    FWIW, I don't think we spend enough time talking about triggers.   

Agreed.  This is something I would bring up with my T, but she's not available for a while so I thought I'd open it up here.  There may already be some threads on this further back in the board's history, so I'll do some digging as well... .

For my EX, there was very little difference in her mindset after the relationship ended and how she thought about things during the relationship.   

for the year after she ended the relationship she followed me everywhere... . 

I was so triggery when I saw her car I would just about hyperventilate.   

my ex has some weird thing about bird dogging me in public where I have to politely say hello and acknowledge her.   it is some weird metaphor for her life.   

being able to be strong enough to embrace the mean and angry parts of me meant opening myself up to other views of myself.   someone other than the nice guy who goes along to get along... .

I'm so sorry you had to go through all of that!  I'm at least relieved that I don't run a risk of seeing my ex in person very much at all.  Email/text/parent portal communications are bad enough but at least there is that layer of separation.

The "mean and angry parts" are something I have yet to connect with in me.  I touched on it briefly with my T before she went on leave.  I struggle with the anger that I am supposed to work through as part of the grieving and healing process.  Well, honestly I struggle with even having to go through that process, but setting that aside I specifically feel anger and other intense negative emotions are a waste of energy.  I know this is coming from my avoidant nature, and I know it has to be worked through... .that's just where I am right now.

time actually does help with those triggers... .   

finding ways to put concrete language around the triggers helps too.     Identifying... labeling... .building fences around the triggers helps... .

when there may be a trigger present don't blow by it... .stop and explore it as best as possibly.     

Notice when other people get triggered... .  and how that looks... .it's often easier to recognize it in someone else first... .

These are all great suggestions.  I'll try... .

mw

[Harley Quinn]

It's really tough feeling triggered and for myself, has historically always been more tough in the build up of knowing it is likely to happen.  Do you find that you feel more affected because you're bracing for the outcome?  I have always braced myself before having any communication with my S4's father, and still do now to a lesser degree.  A lot of focused work and guidance with a counsellor and learning about BIFF helped me enormously.  I now don't give over my personal power to him and state clearly what I want rather than bowing, scraping and basically reducing myself as I did in the past.  It's taken me about 13 years to reach that point though 

Another thing she reminded me is that sometimes no response is a response and I salute you mw for doing what's right for you and not saying anything to your ex's last reply to you.   

finding ways to put concrete language around the triggers helps too.     Identifying... labeling... .building fences around the triggers helps... .

when there may be a trigger present don't blow by it... .stop and explore it as best as possibly.     

Notice when other people get triggered... .  and how that looks... .it's often easier to recognize it in someone else first... .

These are some great suggestions ducks.  With the second one my counsellor encouraged me to notice how I'm feeling and have self compassion by saying internally 'I am having a difficult time right now'.  It is very soothing to give my inner state that compassionate acknowledgement.  Accepting it as fact, and that it's OK to feel that way stops me from escalating my own torment and I find getting in touch with my breath very helpful at that point.

We have an article here that may be helpful to someone which I'll share:

Triggering, Mindfulness and Wisemind

Here's an excerpt:

Our mind is the source of all misery and of all pleasure. People don’t effectively hurt our feelings or inspire us.

People can offer us their opinions,  it is only that which the mind decides has any relevance that we take on for ourselves.  Only the mind that can complement us, insult us, lift us, or destroy us.

We can influence this.

Love and light x

[babyducks]

I hate that I can even be triggered in the first place, don't understand quite what it is that is triggering me, barely have a grasp on what it's doing to me, and really wish it would stop.

whelp that's me.   I never quite understand what is triggering me.   One T I had kept saying you have to figure out what the trigger is.   to which I never did respond that someone needs to install one of those cell phone vibrate buzzers 'cause I never get it.

I think towards the end of my relationship I lived with so much discomfort and stress, that I was almost always triggered, and didn't realize it.

I think triggers are personal to each individual.  At the end of my relationship things got fairly abusive.     For a long time I was triggered by a certain type of car.    I was hypervigelent to that car.    saw it coming and panicked.    that was pretty easy to identify and work with.     the emotional triggers and emotional flashbacks are harder.   the idea that triggers and flashbacks could be purely emotional... .was new to me.   liberating when I got it but extremely hard to understand.

for a long time I put myself in positions where my raw and exposed emotions were at the mercy of a mentally ill person.    My ego strength got damaged (google).   I collected a whole bunch of emotionally charged core beliefs that activate my body’s stress response, as they are rooted in fear and anxiety.   I know those core beliefs are limiting because they unnecessarily activate my body’s stress response, making automatic defensive tactics, such as blame, avoidance or denial, etc., seem like the only options for lowering my anxiety.

at the end of my relationship there was so much shame and blame flying around like chaff in the wind.   i felt deeply shamed.   deeply blamed.  secretly afraid that all those feelings were 'real'.   I had a desperate need to figure it all out... .understand it and fix it.    It was some kind of competition.  My P talked about ego strength a lot.    I didn't understand much of it but one of the ideas that came through was the idea of personal power, personal power to make good choices and keep my emotional telfon in place so that another persons actions or emotions didn't rock mine.   I guess maybe ego strength is the opposite of being triggery.


thanks for the thread.

'ducks

[mama-wolf]

Do you find that you feel more affected because you're bracing for the outcome? 

I now don't give over my personal power to him and state clearly what I want rather than bowing, scraping and basically reducing myself as I did in the past.  It's taken me about 13 years to reach that point though 

I don't know that it's about bracing for the outcome, though I suppose that could be one element.   I think it's more about my increased awareness that I am getting triggered and wishing I could stop it... .kind of a spiral of frustration plus the triggering itself.  On some level, I thought that by separating and getting through mediation, putting distance between us physically, financially, and even verbally (communicating through the parent portal), I would be more insulated from the effects she can have on me.  But that doesn't really seem to be the case.

I really am working very hard to control the communication and my responses in particular.  I gave away so much power to her for so long in the relationship, it's definitely a learning process to turn that around.

We have an article here that may be helpful to someone which I'll share:

Triggering, Mindfulness and Wisemind

Thank you for sharing this article, HQ!  I came across it a while back, but it definitely warrants revisiting.  What you said before about meditation and mindfulness all fits in here, right?  Something I will continue to work on.

I think I'm dealing with a bit of a roadblock with the mindfulness part (actually acknowledging and accepting how I'm feeling)... .as well as the self-compassion part.  It's a hell of a lot easier for me to be patient, kind, generous, loving, and encouraging to others.  I really struggle with turning that on myself, but I have talked about that enough here already.

I think towards the end of my relationship I lived with so much discomfort and stress, that I was almost always triggered, and didn't realize it.

I can relate to that a lot.  Especially since I stayed in it purposefully for several months more than I should have from a mental health perspective.  I figure most of the damage was already done well before that point, but it's something akin to not setting a broken bone soon enough, so then it has to go through more extensive repair than should have been necessary--maybe with a bit of an infection that set in on top of everything else.  I stand by my decision, and my T supported me through it knowing my reasons, but I didn't realize how much of an effect it would have on the other side.

I think triggers are personal to each individual.  At the end of my relationship things got fairly abusive.     

First, 'ducks, I'm so sorry you went through all of that.  What you describe about the emotionally charged core beliefs, your stress response, defensive tactics, and wanting to figure it all out/fix it... .it all sounds a little too close to my own experience.  I wish I could offer more than just a "me too" but I am not sure how to respond otherwise.  I think you're farther along the path of healing than me, so I take some encouragement from that.  I'll definitely look more into ego strength... .

mw

[Educated_Guess]

Mama-wolf, I understand what you are saying about anger. I'm a pretty stoic person myself and I get where you are coming from.

But anger can be a good thing.  One of the best ways to realize something is there is to get good and pissed off about it!

Rollo May says that a person cannot even perceive something until he is ready to take a stand on it.  He gives an example of a patient who was abandoned by his mother and left at an orphanage. On the rare occasion that he had contact with his mother, she would promise to visit him weekly and bring him gifts.  She never followed through.

May commented to the patient that it sounded like his mother hated him.  The patient replied that it seemed that way but then he listed a number of excuses for why the mother behaved the way she did.  He was not yet ready to see that his mother hated and abandoned him.  He wasn't ready to take a stand on it so he wouldn't even allow the thought to take root in his mind.

I've thought about this story often and can say that there is some truth to it.  In this past year, I have become aware of some elements of my childhood abuse that I never even recognized as being an issue before. I became aware of those things when I was able to say those things were wrong and should never have been done to me.  Before I could take a stand on it, I wasn't even consciously aware of it even though I was unconsciously acting out of that trauma my whole life.

Anger is a reaction to something that's not right.  Anger is taking a stand on it.  Maybe by allowing the anger to pass through you, you will be able to see and identify the triggers that cause it.

[babyducks]

I really am working very hard to control the communication and my responses in particular.  I gave away so much power to her for so long in the relationship, it's definitely a learning process to turn that around.
…….
I think I'm dealing with a bit of a roadblock with the mindfulness part (actually acknowledging and accepting how I'm feeling)... .as well as the self-compassion part.  

For me, M-Wolf,   I had to give myself permission to NOT control my response and my communication.    Like you know, my EX followed me around for a while.   showed up every place I went so she could force some kind of contact.   it drove me nuts.   and then I put some very high expectations on myself to respond to her nutty behavior - 'appropriately'... .

I tried to jump right over annoyed and frustrated to get to calm and accepting.    I think Educated_Guess raises a good point.    Anger is a natural reaction.    When I gave myself permission to Not Always Respond Appropriately,   I opened up options and possibilities.     So what's the worst that happens if I do respond rudely?    Will people think less of me?   Do I really care what people think?

On Friday afternoons, after I leave work,  I tend to go to a small specialty grocery store to pick up some things for a nice Friday night dinner.   I've been doing that for … oh I dunno…. 20 years?    She tends to be in the parking lot or in the store now.    I think it would be okay for me to say 'get the   away from me'.    I think I have the right to say that.     It may be immature.   It may be rude.   It may be empowering.     It's another option.   I haven't actually said that yet.    I may some day.    Giving myself the possibility of taking a stand makes me feel less triggered.


'ducks

[mama-wolf]

EG, thanks for dropping in!

But anger can be a good thing.  One of the best ways to realize something is there is to get good and pissed off about it!

Anger is a reaction to something that's not right.  Anger is taking a stand on it.  Maybe by allowing the anger to pass through you, you will be able to see and identify the triggers that cause it.

My T said something similar about letting myself get there with the anger and most likely finding that it helps me move forward.  I have also been reading about it in terms of general processing in grief, abandonment, etc.  I just think I need help with the emotion itself first.

For me, M-Wolf,   I had to give myself permission to NOT control my response and my communication.    

'ducks, this makes perfect sense given the stalking behavior your ex has exhibited.  I understand how important it is to know that you have every right to feel and express that anger.

I tried to jump right over annoyed and frustrated to get to calm and accepting.    I think Educated_Guess raises a good point.    Anger is a natural reaction.    When I gave myself permission to Not Always Respond Appropriately,   I opened up options and possibilities.     So what's the worst that happens if I do respond rudely?    Will people think less of me?   Do I really care what people think?

Part of what I'm struggling with is allowing myself to feel and respond in the right time and manner.  As I work on being able to acknowledge that I am in fact feeling angry, I need a better understanding of how to express the anger appropriately (as opposed to "responding appropriately", which gets translated to staying calm, polite, and accepting).  If my kids are around, I don't want them exposed to it like they have been (still are) with uBPDxw.  And if it's just me and uBPDxw (even if over the phone or in the parent portal), I don't want her using that against me somehow with the Parent Coordinator.  And if I'm alone... .well, I'm stuck asking myself "what's the point?" 

I also know for a fact that in our marriage uBPDxw would manipulate me into emotional outbursts (usually anger, but towards the end of the relationship there would also be sobbing).  Because I'm more reserved and can be emotionally detached, it was her way of proving to herself that she could make me "feel."  It takes a lot to get me there, but when all the "right" buttons have been pushed, I get there.  I really struggle with someone having done that to me, with that loss of control.  So when I find myself triggered now, it just feels like more of the same and I want to clamp it down completely.

I think it would be okay for me to say 'get the   away from me'.    I think I have the right to say that.     It may be immature.   It may be rude.   It may be empowering.     It's another option.   I haven't actually said that yet.    I may some day.    Giving myself the possibility of taking a stand makes me feel less triggered.

If and when you feel right in saying it, I hope you do!  I get what you're saying about at least knowing it is a possible response having a positive effect (feeling less triggered).  I will try to keep that in mind as I work to give myself permission.

Side note - I ended up speaking with uBPDxw on the phone this morning (unplanned... .D9 called using uBPDxw's phone since she left her iPad at my house and could not FaceTime).  uBPDxw asked to have the phone long enough to tell me that she's "allowing these calls because of D9 getting so upset" but that she "really hopes these calls aren't just b*tch sessions because that just undermines [her] as a parent."  I was annoyed at having to actually talk to her, I can say I did not get triggered.

mw

[Harley Quinn]

Well done mw! That sort of thing is hard to come up against.  Acceptance that there will be certain behaviours, attitudes, assumptions etc. from S4's dad has been liberating.  It sounds like you're doing well on that front too and long before I got there. 

Just to go back in time a little... .

I think I'm dealing with a bit of a roadblock with the mindfulness part (actually acknowledging and accepting how I'm feeling)... .as well as the self-compassion part.  It's a hell of a lot easier for me to be patient, kind, generous, loving, and encouraging to others.  I really struggle with turning that on myself, but I have talked about that enough here already.

We're here to talk about what matters to you as much as you want to talk about it.  It's great that you know what is going on with yourself - it would be easy to just go along with the status quo without thinking about any of that and many people do in life. 

I wish I could explain what it was that helped me to turn a corner in respect of these things and the only thing I can pin it on is intention.  Having awareness of something we struggle with is one thing and doing something about it is another.  We might try many things and none of them actually work but I think that the intention and the trying is what helped me to get there.  I'm still not where I'd like to be but there are huge differences in how I operate now to a year ago.  I have begun to actually do, or not do, things for no other reason than that's what's good for me.  It's a massive step and wanting to take the step is in itself a step it turns out. 

Love and light x

[Educated_Guess]

Mama-wolf, I think you and I have some similarities when it comes to identifying emotions.  I grew up in an abusive and invalidating environment.  At some point I must have taught myself not to feel , probably as a means of survival. 

I was in my 20’s before I even realized that I couldn’t identify even basic emotions, good or bad.  I’ve been working on that since but sometimes there’s still a lag between when I feel an emotion and when I recognize it.

It’s a strange, isolated way to exist.  It’s like everyone speaks a language that is foreign to me and no one can understand why I don’t speak that language too.

Is that something like how you feel when it comes to emotions?

[Zemmma]

babyducks

... for a long time I put myself in positions where my raw and exposed emotions were at the mercy of a mentally ill person.   

Oh, my goodness yes. Was just thinking this the other day. My BPDx's dysregulated emotions dysregulated mine. It seems extreme to consider him "mentally ill," but that is the same as me regarding the word "alcoholic" as extreme. Yes, extreme. But yes. A perfect adjective. It's amazing how often I have to remind myself that this is what I was dealing with.

I just get lost in all of these feeeeeeeeeeeeelings...

[babyducks]

Oh, my goodness yes. Was just thinking this the other day. My BPDx's dysregulated emotions dysregulated mine. It seems extreme to consider him "mentally ill," but that is the same as me regarding the word "alcoholic" as extreme. Yes, extreme. But yes. A perfect adjective. It's amazing how often I have to remind myself that this is what I was dealing with.

I just get lost in all of these feeeeeeeeeeeeelings...

Hi Zemmma,

In my case 'mentally ill' is just accurate.   My Ex was diagnosed Bipolar 1 comorbid with 'another cluster B' illness, most likely BPD.   She was compliant with medication, regular with therapy, committed to managing the Bipolar, less comfortable with the 'other cluster B' illness.    For me this was a serious level of mental illness, not just defects of character or maladaptive coping traits.

Hey M-Wolf,

Part of what I'm struggling with is allowing myself to feel and respond in the right time and manner.  As I work on being able to acknowledge that I am in fact feeling angry, I need a better understanding of how to express the anger appropriately (as opposed to "responding appropriately", which gets translated to staying calm, polite, and accepting).  If my kids are around, I don't want them exposed to it like they have been (still are) with uBPDxw.  And if it's just me and uBPDxw (even if over the phone or in the parent portal), I don't want her using that against me somehow with the Parent Coordinator.  And if I'm alone... .well, I'm stuck asking myself "what's the point?" 

You are the point.     I remember when I read Margalis Fjelstad's book "Stop Caretaking".   She talks a lot about anger and it rang a lot of bells with me.   This is Fjelstad:

Not all caretakers are alike (neither are borderlines and narcissists) and their involvement levels might differ considerably. There are however characteristics that many do share. Among them might be fear of anger. "Fear of anger puts you at the mercy of the BP/NP who has no fear of expressing his or her feelings and even blaming them on you." Or, the deep-seated yet delusional belief that reason is the solution. "The truth is that the BP/NP is unable to consistently respond logically."

Like you M-Wolf,  my Ex put me in impossible situations, almost goading me to get angry.  and when I did, she would play the "see how unreasonable you are" card.    I think giving myself permission to get angry if I need to, and being goaded into loosing control are two separate things.  I can be angry and not be out of control.    I really get that you don't want to be angry in front of the kids   or on the parent portal.    that makes sense.    for me, and speaking only for me,  I think I set myself up for failure by always wanting to be the normal sane reasonable one.    it was an unreasonably high expectation to put on myself.    just being human is really enough.

what do you think?

'ducks

[mama-wolf]

I wish I could explain what it was that helped me to turn a corner in respect of these things and the only thing I can pin it on is intention.  Having awareness of something we struggle with is one thing and doing something about it is another.  We might try many things and none of them actually work but I think that the intention and the trying is what helped me to get there.  I'm still not where I'd like to be but there are huge differences in how I operate now to a year ago.  I have begun to actually do, or not do, things for no other reason than that's what's good for me.  It's a massive step and wanting to take the step is in itself a step it turns out. 

A great point, HQ!  I think this speaks to the power of the mind and the ways it helps (or hinders) us.  What you said reminded me of my ex's grandmother, who came down with the flu or pneumonia (I can't remember which) many years ago.  She was out of crisis and had been moved into a rehab center to recover, but there was a point at which it was clear that she had finally decided to give up.  She was tired and no longer had the will (intent) to live, so she didn't.

Mama-wolf, I think you and I have some similarities when it comes to identifying emotions.  I grew up in an abusive and invalidating environment.  At some point I must have taught myself not to feel , probably as a means of survival. 

I was in my 20’s before I even realized that I couldn’t identify even basic emotions, good or bad.  I’ve been working on that since but sometimes there’s still a lag between when I feel an emotion and when I recognize it.

It’s a strange, isolated way to exist.  It’s like everyone speaks a language that is foreign to me and no one can understand why I don’t speak that language too.

Is that something like how you feel when it comes to emotions?

While I didn't have quite the same experience growing up as you EG, I agree with you on the similarities.  My difficulty is more with negative emotions than positive ones, but even with positive emotions I'm not very expressive and have trouble connecting with them.  I can recognize sometimes if I'm in a good mood, but it's hard for me to conceive of being able to say I'm truly happy.  And if I'm frustrated or otherwise bothered about something, I haven't been able to stop and say "that makes me really sad."  I can acknowledge others' feelings, but don't relate very well to them on that level because mine are so guarded.

You are the point.

Thank you, 'ducks... .the simplicity of that answer really got my attention.

I think giving myself permission to get angry if I need to, and being goaded into loosing control are two separate things.  I can be angry and not be out of control.   

for me, and speaking only for me,  I think I set myself up for failure by always wanting to be the normal sane reasonable one.    it was an unreasonably high expectation to put on myself.    just being human is really enough.

what do you think?

   

Absolutely, and what I'm having to learn and trust is that I can get angry without totally losing control.  That I can be sad without completely falling apart.  I can actually be a human being with all her own emotions, thoughts, aspirations, and needs.  I do have unreasonable expectations of myself.  When my T and I discussed this in one of the last sessions, I jokingly tried to reassure her that don't actually aspire to be a Vulcan.  I'm a sci-fi geek, but I at least know that's not possible, nor would I actually want it if it were possible.

Speaking of anger in particular, I get this mental image of the Hulk when he first transforms.  He just stands there and roars at the world or whatever it was that finally provoked the Hulk to come out. and then he just goes on this destructive rampage (granted, usually in service of good, but still it's a mess).  I feel like I'm Bruce Banner, constantly trying to keep the Hulk from coming out... .but the reality is there is no Hulk to be worried about.

Wow... .from Vulcans to the Hulk... .my analogy systems are on overdrive.

More contact with my ex last night... .this time over text.  The kids had called me from her phone to say hi (which she had them do on speaker), and when they asked me where I was I told them honestly that I was at the store picking up some medicine.  We talked for a bit but when they asked what kind I told them it's nothing and declined to go into any details.  Then a few minutes later, I get a text from my ex, sparking the following exchange:

uBPDxw:  What prescription are you getting?  You never get sick?
me (after seriously debating whether to answer at all):  I'm fine.  Please reassure the kids that I'm not sick.  Doctor prescribed something to help with a temporary irritation
uBPDxw:  Like the incident in City X on the way to Event A?
me:  No
uBPDxw:  Yours truly had to have a small cyst removed from my pink parts the same week I moved into my townhouse.  Like 3 or 4 stitches.
me (again, after debating whether to answer at all):  Sorry to hear that
uBPDxw:  June and July were a level of fun that haven't been matched yet
(no response from me... .I'm not taking the bait to talk about our separation and how terrible her life has been)
uBPDxw:  Seriously, I hope you don't have a sore throat- I know those make you miserable
me (promising myself I will tell her to stop texting if she answers this last response):  Thank you for the concern... .I'm fine

I clearly struggled with letting myself be angry and tell her to leave me the hell alone, it's none of her business.  Thankfully, she finally got the hint with my last response.  She clearly wanted to know what was going on with me and wanted a conversation.  Maybe she was lonely.   Whatever it was, she needed to seek conversation and companionship elsewhere.  I could tell she really didn't like not knowing what was going on with me, and she definitely wanted me to take the bait about the separation.  More fishing for empathy, which sets my alarm bells off like crazy now... .but again I can at least say I wasn't triggered.

mw

[Educated_Guess]

While I didn't have quite the same experience growing up as you EG, I agree with you on the similarities.  My difficulty is more with negative emotions than positive ones, but even with positive emotions I'm not very expressive and have trouble connecting with them.  I can recognize sometimes if I'm in a good mood, but it's hard for me to conceive of being able to say I'm truly happy.  And if I'm frustrated or otherwise bothered about something, I haven't been able to stop and say "that makes me really sad."  I can acknowledge others' feelings, but don't relate very well to them on that level because mine are so guarded.

Do you know if there is a reason for your emotions to be guarded?  I understand what you're saying about not wanting to become the Hulk.  But on the other hand, unless you've had some kind of horrible mutation you are probably not going to become the Hulk. 

Have you been told that your emotions are extreme by other people?  Have you had experiences in the past where you felt out of control?  What is the worst thing that can happen if you allow yourself to feel your emotions fully or allow others to know what you feel?

One of the things that has helped me to connect with my emotions is to pay attention to the cues given by my body.  It actually took awhile for me to figure out that I live in a body, I am a body and my body communicates with me all the time.  (For real, I cannot not get it to shut up).  My first big clues were my medical problems, mainly stomach issues.  I am convinced that my gallbladder died for my stress and repressed anger when I was 26.  My body tries to tell me what is going on all the time - back pain, headaches, TMJ, racing pulse, high blood pressure, you name it.  Your body is a good place to start when it comes to recognizing how you feel.

[Harley Quinn]

Great insight from Educated_Guess.  The purpose of mindfulness is simply taking note of this communication by tuning in.  (I am not on commission by the way   )
You could decide to make it a regular thing by choosing to say, each time you put the kettle on for a hot drink, spend that minute or two simply paying attention to how your body feels.  Really get in touch with every sensation.  Once you're in the habit, you can do a quick scan of your body when you are sitting in a waiting room, on hold on a call and so on.

Well done for not taking the bait in the conversation and for remaining so centred!  You are very adept at noticing signs and cues in others.  You prevented yourself from being triggered by putting yourself first and refusing to be drawn in.  You put a boundary on yourself around ending the conversation if it went further.  That's fantastic!  It may just be a case of giving yourself permission to turn that attention onto yourself deliberately when you are not put in a position where you 'must' like that and slowly building good habits that are about you.  Stepping up your self care is also another good starting point.  Showing yourself that you value yourself enough to stop what you feel you must do and rest instead because that is more important.  Or putting something on hold because you want to have fun instead.
 What do you think?   

Love and light x

[babyducks]

Wow... .from Vulcans to the Hulk... .my analogy systems are on overdrive.

when I get angry the little tuft of yellow down on my forehead stands up.   I look like a ferocious yellow baby duck.   I'd show you a picture but it might scare you.

I think you did great with the text conversation.       Nice job!

[mama-wolf]

Do you know if there is a reason for your emotions to be guarded?

It's a great question, EG... .I have some guesses on contributors based on subjects my T and I have touched on peripherally in therapy... .some events in my childhood that I am sure contributed to abandonment issues, but nothing like abuse or what I will call (for lack of a better reference) "real" trauma.  My T has said that in addition to my naturally rational and somewhat emotionally detached personality, these issues contribute towards my emotional avoidance.  We haven't been able to dive into the details yet, but I have of course done a lot of thinking about what those contributors could be... .

Divorce of my parents when I was an infant would be one.  Plus my maternal grandmother was an alcoholic, though she was in AA well before I was born and stayed sober the rest of her life.  I actually had a really good relationship with my grandmother, but I know her illness had an effect on my mom and my two aunts.  While my mom was always very loving, supportive, and encouraging to me, we never really "did" emotional discussions.  In fact, I don't really remember her actually saying the words "I love you" to me when I was a kid, though she communicated it to me in so many other ways and I never once doubted that she did.  She remarried when I was eight, and then separated from my stepdad when I was twelve.  She found out after separating that she was pregnant, so they tried making it work for about 1.5 years, but they ultimately divorced when I was around 14.

When I was 13, my mom told me that her first husband was not my biological father (who is actually from South America).  I adore my dad (mom's first husband) and he will always be my dad.  I wasn't devastated by this news... .to me it just meant I have more family.  We apparently lived down there for a year or so after my mom divorced my dad, but she ultimately decided she couldn't raise me there and couldn't have a relationship with my father.  So we moved back to the States when I was a toddler and lived with my grandmother for much of my early childhood until my mom married my stepdad.

So, after learning about my biological father, I traveled to South America the next two summers for a month at a time, and then a few other times for a week or two in order to visit the various family members there.  They were great experiences, yet none of those family members (especially not my actual father who lived in the States at the time) ever visited me in my city, or wrote to me (it was the early days of email, but it existed and several family members had accounts), and they barely ever called.  When I was 15 or so, my father and I were out for a drive on one of my visits to his extended family, and he even told me some story about how long ago when my mom left him, he was so devastated that he had to bury all of his love for her deep down, and he had to bury his love for me along with it.  Maybe he was trying to explain why he was having trouble reaching out and connecting with me, but he was the parent in that situation and what I took away from it was that it was too painful to love me so he didn't.

Fast forward to my early college years when Ellen Degeneres came out on her show.  It happened the week before I went to visit my Dad and stepmom.  I hadn't even come out to myself yet, didn't quite realize why I was immediately captivated by TV show Xena, and had absolutely no idea why Ellen's coming out just meant so much to me at that time.  But when I was visiting my Dad and it was the night Ellen's show was supposed to be on (the episode where she was going to tell her parents), I mentioned that I'd like to watch it.  His response was simply "we don't support that lifestyle."  And again, I had no idea why it upset me so much, but it did.   A couple years later when I did finally come out to myself, I realized why.  (The good news is that he and my stepmom really surprised me when I finally came out to them, but it was several years later.)

And then on to my first real girlfriend as I was finishing college, who I don't think had NPD but she certainly had an ego to contend with.  Who would frequently talk about a girl she was involved with when she was in college in Miami, referencing that girl's characteristics as her ideal characteristics... .which I clearly did not match.  Who would kiss me and decide to offer instruction so that I could improve for my "next girlfriend."  And who ultimately cheated on me with one of her coworkers during my final exams just before I graduated.  I tried the open relationship thing with her for a little while, but she ultimately told me I was "not happy" so we needed to end it completely.  (I'm pretty sure it was her new gf who was not happy, and she was inconvenienced/bored with me, and really had nothing to do with her caring about me or my feelings.)

Have you been told that your emotions are extreme by other people?  Have you had experiences in the past where you felt out of control?  What is the worst thing that can happen if you allow yourself to feel your emotions fully or allow others to know what you feel?

I haven't gotten feedback that my emotions themselves are extreme, though I have been told many times that my anger is like a hockey stick... .flat for a long time (as in no anger) until whatever that tipping point is and then I just spike to furious.  I agree with that on some level.  I don't get upset easily... .it really does take a lot for me to finally get to the point where I'm just so frustrated/angry/upset that I don't know what to do other than to have some kind of angry outburst.  It's never physical... .usually just angrily yelling back or something.  I recognize it now as getting flooded am more aware of approaching that boiling point.

My first big clues were my medical problems, mainly stomach issues.  I am convinced that my gallbladder died for my stress and repressed anger when I was 26.  My body tries to tell me what is going on all the time - back pain, headaches, TMJ, racing pulse, high blood pressure, you name it.  Your body is a good place to start when it comes to recognizing how you feel.

Yes, I have had my share of some (relatively minor) medical issues from the stress of repressed emotions, and I hope they are going to gradually improve now--to the extent that they can.  I'm convinced several of the crowns in my teeth are from stress-induced clenching.  After a few years, I finally got the right kind of bite guard to address that.  Back pain is a big one that, although there is some underlying physiology, I am sure stress is a major contributor.

Otherwise, it's the brief physical sensations that I'm trying to pay attention to in the moment... .the stab of anxiety in the gut, the pounding in my head caused by a spike in BP, the wave of exhaustion that's probably more sadness than me actually being tired.  I have always ignored these as unimportant... .they didn't change the fact that I still needed to plod through the day, or the event, or whatever I was doing at the time.

The purpose of mindfulness is simply taking note of this communication by tuning in.  (I am not on commission by the way   )

HA!  Keep encouraging the mindfulness, HQ... .I promise I'm listening   And thank you for the encouragement.

It may just be a case of giving yourself permission to turn that attention onto yourself deliberately when you are not put in a position where you 'must' like that and slowly building good habits that are about you.  Stepping up your self care is also another good starting point.  Showing yourself that you value yourself enough to stop what you feel you must do and rest instead because that is more important.  Or putting something on hold because you want to have fun instead.
 What do you think?

It all sounds good and reasonable to me!  It's the giving myself permission part that can be a struggle, but at least it's a struggle I'm aware of and am winning more frequently.

when I get angry the little tuft of yellow down on my forehead stands up.   I look like a ferocious yellow baby duck.   I'd show you a picture but it might scare you.

I think you did great with the text conversation.       Nice job!

Oh yes... .angry little yellow baby ducks can be so terrifying   Thanks, 'ducks!

mw

[Educated_Guess]

It's a great question, EG... .I have some guesses on contributors based on subjects my T and I have touched on peripherally in therapy... .some events in my childhood that I am sure contributed to abandonment issues, but nothing like abuse or what I will call (for lack of a better reference) "real" trauma.  My T has said that in addition to my naturally rational and somewhat emotionally detached personality, these issues contribute towards my emotional avoidance.  We haven't been able to dive into the details yet, but I have of course done a lot of thinking about what those contributors could be... .

Divorce of my parents when I was an infant would be one.  Plus my maternal grandmother was an alcoholic, though she was in AA well before I was born and stayed sober the rest of her life.  I actually had a really good relationship with my grandmother, but I know her illness had an effect on my mom and my two aunts.  While my mom was always very loving, supportive, and encouraging to me, we never really "did" emotional discussions.  In fact, I don't really remember her actually saying the words "I love you" to me when I was a kid, though she communicated it to me in so many other ways and I never once doubted that she did. 

mama-wolf, thanks for sharing more of your story.  It's interesting about your grandmother being an alcoholic.  People may turn to alcohol if they are overwhelmed by their emotions and need a way to numb what they feel.  That's what alcohol does.  Maybe your grandmother felt overwhelmed by emotions and tried to cut them off.  Maybe your mother learned that it was bad to feel emotions growing up in this environment.  If your mother has issues with expressing emotion, that may not have been modeled for you much when you were growing and developing.  What do you think?

When I was 13, my mom told me that her first husband was not my biological father (who is actually from South America). 

When I was 15 or so, my father and I were out for a drive on one of my visits to his extended family, and he even told me some story about how long ago when my mom left him, he was so devastated that he had to bury all of his love for her deep down, and he had to bury his love for me along with it.  Maybe he was trying to explain why he was having trouble reaching out and connecting with me, but he was the parent in that situation and what I took away from it was that it was too painful to love me so he didn't.

Having your family structure suddenly redefined must have been difficult.  How did you handle that when you found out?

It's also interesting that your biological father also expressed how he had to bury his emotions.  This is starting to look like a pattern in your family.

I think our capacity to feel emotions can come from a variety of factors.  In the nature vs nurture debate, I would say that it is both.  Some of it depends on genetics and how you are wired physiologically.  Some of it depends on what is modeled for you and the feedback you receive during childhood development.  It can also be that you are a "T" (Thinking) instead of a "F" (Feeling) in the Myers-Briggs personality framework.  (If you are not familiar with Myers-Briggs personality types, let me know and I can share some links.)

And, man, Xena was the show back in the day, wasn't it? 

I haven't gotten feedback that my emotions themselves are extreme, though I have been told many times that my anger is like a hockey stick... .flat for a long time (as in no anger) until whatever that tipping point is and then I just spike to furious.  I agree with that on some level.  I don't get upset easily... .it really does take a lot for me to finally get to the point where I'm just so frustrated/angry/upset that I don't know what to do other than to have some kind of angry outburst.  It's never physical... .usually just angrily yelling back or something.  I recognize it now as getting flooded am more aware of approaching that boiling point.

I'm the same way.  It takes a lot to get me angry.  It's great that you are working on recognizing when you are getting flooded.

I have back problems too.  I would have said that it was all due to physical factors BUT my back pain got better immediately after my breakup.  I can't ignore that evidence so I'm having to rethink it.  I also have issues with unexplained anxiety and physical exhaustion.

Of course, recognizing your physical illnesses is not the only way to feel what is going on in your body.  I had just tuned out of my body for so long that my body had to scream at me repeatedly for me to start paying attention.    So that was my starting point.

[mama-wolf]

If your mother has issues with expressing emotion, that may not have been modeled for you much when you were growing and developing.  What do you think?

Yes, I talked about this a bit with my T and she said that some of my emotional avoidance is natural based on learned behavior from my mom.  I readily agree.

Having your family structure suddenly redefined must have been difficult.  How did you handle that when you found out?

Get this--I busted out laughing and rolled off the bed.  My poor mom... .she was so terrified to tell me because she was so worried I would be pissed that she hadn't said something sooner.  Meanwhile, I just laughed and told her this was something out of a soap opera, not real life.  I was fine with it.  In fact, I remembered meeting the man who turned out to be my father back when I was little... .had a vivid memory of my mom taking me to the airport for a brief visit with her "old friend" when I was about four or five years old.

Of course, when I told my T about my reaction, she commented that it was very emotionally detached.  We haven't really dug into the topic much further.  Your point about burying/avoiding emotions being a pattern in my family is an astute one.  Not only do I appear to be wired that way biologically, but I certainly have had environmental factors to foster this tendency.

It can also be that you are a "T" (Thinking) instead of a "F" (Feeling) in the Myers-Briggs personality framework.  (If you are not familiar with Myers-Briggs personality types, let me know and I can share some links.)

Ha!  Yes... .ISTJ here.  My score for "I" was actually somewhat borderline.  I can be extroverted if the situation calls for it, but it's extremely draining.  I am definitely an introvert when it comes to where I get my energy (alone time).  The other scores were pretty strong on their end of the spectrum.

Of course, recognizing your physical illnesses is not the only way to feel what is going on in your body.  I had just tuned out of my body for so long that my body had to scream at me repeatedly for me to start paying attention.    So that was my starting point.

Yes, it can take something like getting knocked upside the head to get my attention about this sort of thing as well.  What, this tension headache is not enough?  Here, how about what feels like a spike being stabbed into your trapezius muscle?  Oh, and let's throw in heart palpitations every half-hour or so, just for fun.  At some point, you can't help but pay attention. 

But your point is well taken... .the important skill to develop is the ability to tune into the more subtle cues and understand what they mean before they worsen.

mw

[Harley Quinn]

Some really good work going on here mw

Have you had any more contact from your ex since the text conversation?

Love and light x

[mama-wolf]

Thanks, HQ!

Have you had any more contact from your ex since the text conversation?

Nothing that she prompted.  Back on Tuesday morning, I forwarded an email to her about an event D9's Girl Scouts troop was going to do involving an overnight stay (it was on a weekend the kids would be with uBPDxw).  I explained I would normally go through the parent portal, I would need to pay the money at the troop meeting that night for D9 to participate in the event, so I was sending the email for a faster response.  She still hadn't replied by early evening, so I texted her.  Still no answer for another 1.5 hours after that, so I called and left a voicemail.  She responded almost immediately with a very brief text to confirm she supported D9 going to the event.

So it seemed she had swung in the opposite direction now as far as communication goes.  I was getting pretty annoyed at the lack of response this time.  Luckily, it's pretty uncommon for me to need a quick response from her.  Afterwards, we did exchange some logistical texts that I should have moved to the portal, but we wrapped up the details and she left me alone fairly quickly.

So as far as triggering goes, that seems to have gotten better thanks to the discussion here... .I'm very thankful!

mw

[Harley Quinn]

Great news!  I think it is also thanks to your determination to keep things on track.  I'm sure that had the text conversation drifted into something other than logistics you'd have reined it in.  You're doing really well.  Be proud of yourself.  Boundaries are hard when they've been habitually busted by our partners, and you are being conscious about the communication because you are intent on respecting your own values.  

Love and light x