First verbal threat of physical harm

[Enabler]

Hey WC,

I've tried to digest as much as possible but given I have the attention span of a gnat forgive me if I get some of the details wrong. I see many many many similarities with your situation and mine.

Looking at your points above regarding answer FF's question about friends vs you, you answered it explaining the effect, not the cause... .or the behaviour not the emotion. My guess is that being with you hurts her, and being away from you is frightening... .so, to feel safe she holds you by the throat at arms length. Being with you requires emotional vulnerability, or at least that's how she feels (think, her standing there stark naked, you looking her up and down inspecting her), she has UNRELENTING, TO THE  CORE SHAME and it makes her feel very very bad. When you inspect her physically, emotionally and analyse her activities it feels like just that... .Not being with you means that she will have to be responsible for herself, her emotions and her actions, this is frightening as hell for her. So... .she is stuck... .and you are stuck. e.g. she felt sad about the cat, she wanted a cuddle, you gave her a cuddle, she felt vulnerable, she pushes you away and gets you in the arms length strangle hold again. You on the other hand saw the cuddle as hope, you wanted to be vulnerable and have connection, when she pulls away you feel ashamed that you made yourself vulnerable for her and she walked away from you.

So, why does she not have the same emotional reaction with other people? She doesn't expect them to love her. Her definition or love like mine and yours says that someone who loves me should not hurt her, should be kind to her, should take care of her, should take her worts and all... .but yet here you are hurting her, being unkind to her and forcing her to do things that she doesn't want to do. Now before you get excited, there's pretty much no way on earth you couldn't have done all of the above, even the Dalai Lama would have. She has no ability to self reflect, no ability to take personal ownership and even no ability to see you as a separate entity than her.

So, she shouts at the kids for leaving mess around the place (in her mind totally justifiable, perfect parenting, the kids are intentionally doing this TO HER), the kids answer back (extremely bad hurtful child, how could he do this to me after all I have done for it, likely because of their fathers parenting), you step in to protect child (WC is attacking me after I have demonstrated perfect parenting and evil child has attacked me, how can he do this to me, he is making me feel bad, obviously he doesn't love me)... .at no point is she able to self reflect and see how she is the nexus of the conflict and in fact had she have dealt with the issue in a different way your kids may have reacted in a different way... .and if they didn't react in a different way, they are just being kids. You and the kids are extensions of her... .hurting her is like her own hand puncher her in the face. It's not so much that her definition of love is off (although may well be), it's that her emotional pain tolerance is so low that it's inevitable that you will hurt her... .thus not fitting with her definition of love. Not to mention that her own behaviours make it even more inevitable that you react negatively which again causes guilt and shame triggers which are hurtful... .

There is a lot to be said for being vulnerable, staying vulnerable and being comfortable with this situation regardless of what she does re push and pull.

Enabler

[formflier]

 'Turning the other cheek' over and over, validates her abusive behavior. 

I disagree.  I'm hoping others can come along and make a deeper point here.

There are other points of view on what "turning the other cheek" shows.    I would say the critical thing is you pick a pathway and are consistent.  That is highest chance that she will understand what you are trying to "say".

So... .for you and to a more limited extent your kids share a common relationship with your wife that others don't.

Intimacy.

It's hard to wrap your head around "closeness" resulting in "farness" .  I hope that illustrates ... .somewhat... .what you are dealing with.

FF

[formflier]

Right now, you don't have a plan, which means you are reacting. 

Massive point. 

One of the reasons my life is so much better is I finally "flipped" things so that my wife reacts to me... instead of me to her.  I picked a path that I can stay on with consistency... .somedays she likes it... somedays hates it.

What I don't do is "react" to tantrums and other attempts at distraction.

FF

[takingandsending]

I sent her an email last week in response to her telling me over and over that I need to change if things are going to work.  In that email, I accepted that I need to change and noted that I have been working on that through a T for the last year. 

Validating the invalid Her saying you are the problem is not valid, so don't validate that. Not even a little. Rather, you can say, "I see that you are unhappy, and I am unhappy when we disagree, too. It makes everything harder."

I also stated that I feel like I am shooting in the dark with any changes I make and that there is fault found with any changes that I make.  I stated that I need her to provide me with SMART changes, meaning they need to be specific, measurable, attainable, realistic and time bound.  Then I outlined an example to demonstrate what I was talking about.

JADE also known as Invalidating the valid She will see this as one big invalidation for her feeling of being alone or unhappy or frightened (all of which are valid because she does feel them). Which is pretty much how she replied.

This stuff is not easy, but what you are doing is not going to reduce conflict. I totally get why you need to respond how you did, but I think you will get better results working through your feelings with your T v. trying to rationalize with your wife.

[formflier]

  but what you are doing is not going to reduce conflict.

In fact... .it is likely to keep adding fuel to the chronic conflict.

There are middle steps... .

Do you want to better understanding invalidation, validation,  validating the invalid... .etc etc?

FF

[Woodchuck]

I agree that I do not have a solid plan.  As time has progressed over the past several months, I have slowly developed a plan and stuck to it, such as sticking to living in a different part of the the house and seperating things in many different areas.  For me, being very analytical and probably overthinking things, it is very difficult to decide what is best.  If the kids were not in the picture, I would have made a decision to leave a long time ago.  I do not know what is best for them.  I know the current environment is not healthy but that doesn't mean that being divorced would make things better.  I also know that they do not want us to get divorced.  There is a part of me that really does not want a divorce but at the same time I realize that in order for me to get to a place where I trust her would take significantly more than I would ever expect from her.  I don't expect her to change at all. 
Right now, with my upcoming retirement and career change, trying to juggle developing a plan for things at home is a bit much.  My plan had been, until about six months ago, to settle down right where we are at but then that rug got pulled out from under me and I am having to readjust and find a job and figure how I am going to afford everything on my own since she will not contribute anything to any of the bills. 
I am struggling a lot with the 'turning the other cheek' because I have needs to and those needs are going completely unmet.  I have probably reached out to her for a hug or to give her a hug a hundred times in the last few months.  Every single time I am pushed away and told not to touch her.  It is not like I have other moral/ethical avenues to have my own intimacy needs met.  I am not referring to sexual intimacy, but having a friend who is there and you can share life with etc.  A friend who can give you a hug.  Just someone who actually likes you.  Yes, there are the kids but they cannot meet needs on that level, nor should they, in my opinion.  Enabler described the whole cat issue very well.  I would just add to it that I also felt more empty than I already feel.  I am not a robot. 

I have read and reread all the articles on validation, invalidation, JADE, SET etc and have attempted to put those into practice.  I am not anywhere close to perfect (obviously) with any of it but I am aware of things, thus I did not reply right away to the email that she sent this morning.  I do work through things with my T when we have our sessions, however those sessions are usually 2-3 weeks apart and I feel like I just go in there and verbally/emotionally vomit.

I do not understand how outlining my need for SMART changes would be invalidating.  She states that I need to change and when I ask how, she always tells me she can't explain it to me and that I need to figure it out.  I cant figure it out.  I made a very conscious effort to state MY needs rather than saying YOU need to do this.  From my understanding, there is a big difference between saying 'I need' and 'You need'.  I also don't quite understand how I was validating the invalid.  It may have been better if I included the actual contents of the email.  By stating that I accepted that I need to change, was not agreeing with it but accepting that was how she felt and going on from there to say that in order for me to know how to change effectively, I need her to provide me with SMART changes.  Below is the actual beginning of the email.

You say our relationship is dead.  I agree.  I believe it has been that way for quite some time.  You say you want me to change.  I have attempted to figure out hor or what change it is you desire and feel like I have just been chasing my tail.  If you want change, it it nees to be smart change... .I will continute to try to be as loving as I can regardless of the fact that most of my actions will be misinterpreted and misrepresented (I understand that this part would not have been helpful and should have been reworded).  I am sorry if you find the things that I do or dont do as unkind or unloving.  That is not my intention.  I will continue to focus on myself and making myself a better person regardless of the choices that you make  or how much you want to focus on my faults and me being 100% of the problem. (Again, the majority of that sentence should probably have been eliminated).

WC

[worriedStepmom]

IMO, step 1 with making a plan is deciding whether to divorce or not.  This should be your number 1 goalwith your therapist - and you should tell the therapist that making this decision is your priority.

Your T needs to be asking questions designed to make you think about things, to help you see the big picture, and to brainstorm ideas on how to change how you act/react to get to a healthier dynamic.  If your T is not doing that, then you need a new T.  If they are doing that, GREAT!, just make sure the T knows what your goals are.

Your children don't get a say in whether or not you and their mom get divorced.  They are children.  They do not have the emotional or intellectual maturity to know what is best for them or for you and their mom, nor are they good at predicting future outcomes, nor should they be taking on that responsibility.  This is YOUR decision.

My dad did not have a PD, but he was extremely controlling and had bouts of emotionally abusing all of us.  My parents finally divorced when I was 17.  By then, despite how angry I was with the way my dad treated us, I had already internalized that many of those patterns were normal.  I married the wrong guy,  we both addressed conflict in very unhealthy ways, and we ended up divorced when our children were small.  I actually think it is better for the kids because they aren't growing up with the idea that it's okay to let someone rage at you.

My SD has a uBPDmom.  At our home, no one rages,  no one is controlling her, and she is free to be herself.  My H thinks divorcing her mom is the best thing he ever did for her.

But those were OUR choices.  You have to make yours.  Find a way to divorce ... .stay in a toxic marriage with your kids perhaps gaining lessons you don't want them to learn ... .or try (again) to find a way to make your marriage work.  The advice will be different depending on which of these choices you decide to make.

You've been in this defective dance with your W for a very long time.  It's time to stop that - to actively change how you act so that you can change the dynamic between you.  But what actions you need to take depend on what your ultimate goal is.

[formflier]

WC

The focus should be on avoiding invalidation (if time and energy is limited).  1 invalidation = 10 validations.  It really is that powerful.

The good news is... .usually keeping your mouth shut means that you avoid invalidation.

In situations where you need to speak... limiting words helps avoid it.  There is an additional benefit to limiting words... the words you use get more POWER.

It's my opinion that SMART got lost in the email.  My first reaction to reading the actual email was "good grief... .WAY TOO many words"

More words = more ammo. 

"Looking forward to your thoughts on SMART changes that your believe show the desired change.   Want to take a walk after dinner tonight?"

That's it... .the entire response I would recommend. 

Then... .go for a walk after dinner  If she comes along... all the better.

Less words... .don't invalidate.  Think deeply about if it is a choice for her.  Talk to your T about this. 

That will give you some space.

FF

[formflier]

I suspect that she is trying to express pure emotion... in a dysfunctional way... when she emails.

I suspect you are trying to rationally express and solve what appears to be the problem to you.

She is talking Arabic.  You are talking Chinese.

Please consider how stark the difference is between these two.

FF

[Woodchuck]

I am not sure how I insinuated that the decision to divorce was the kids responsibility at all.  That was not what I was attempting to communicate that my decision is largely based on what is best for the kids and that is not an easy task nor a decision easily reversed.  I fully understand it is MY decision to make.

One of my downfalls is being too wordy. You may have noticed that virtually none of my posts are short.  It may be good news that keeping my mouth shut avoids invalidation but it seems that anything I say is invalidating and on the flip side, it seems as though she would be ok with never talking again. 

WC

[Enabler]

it seems as though she would be ok with never talking again. 

Because your words have so much power to hurt her... .like knives... .actual physical pain

1 invalidation = 10 validations.  It really is that powerful.

[Notwendy]

Your wife is a nurse but you are not her patient.

She may know exactly what her patients need and be very good at working with them on good health care decisions, but what works well for her at her job may not be what you want to go along with in your marriage.

Her relationship with her patients is a situation where she knows what needs to be done, and they rely on her to help them get better, but is she taking this kind of approach with you- and are you buying into it?

The S.M.A.R.T change is used in assessments and treatment plans.

www.decisionhealth.com/static/content/articles/Facilities/SMART_Train_the_trainer.pdf

[Woodchuck]

NotWendy-
My W is a nurse, however, not what most would assume.  She has a mid level management position and is in charge of hiring nurses for home health care positions.  She does not interact with patients as part of her daily routine.  She has two or three coworkers that she interacts with and they are all in a management/office type environment.  I came up with the SMART changes based off of training that I have taken focused on SMART goals.  I just slightly adjusted it as the acronym works well for many things.  As far as the approach she is taking, she has said for years that she doesn't know what to do or that she can't do anything to change anything.  I guess if I relate that to nursing, she is telling me that I have a terminal illness and there is nothing that she can do to help.  I am the only one capable of doing what it takes to cure my terminal illness. 
Enabler-
I can accept that words cause her a lot of pain.  What I have a very difficult time accepting and understanding is the endless silence.  She will say she doesn't want to talk, has nothing to say, wants to be left alone.  If I walk away calmly and respect that, weeks can and have gone by without her approaching me.  From my perspective, I gave her exactly what she requested.  Along with that, I have communicated many times, that I would like her to let me know when she is ready to talk.  It is her view that it is not her responsibility.  My words hurt her.  Her silence hurts me.  I try very hard to not be hurtful and seem to not succeed at all. 

WC

[formflier]

To focus on the SMART thing here.

It was actually good to mention it... .but then WAY too many words.

"let her connect the dots"... .versus trying to explain it for her.

For the "terminal illness" thing.  Let her grapple with why you haven't died yet.  It may be appropriate to ask her why... .and let her sort that out.

Just a few words... .lots of POWER. 

FF

[Lastbreath]

Woodchuck,

I get it man.  It is like you and I are leading very parallel lives with nearly the same woman.  Ironically, my uBPDw is also a nurse and I as well.  I see and feel your emotion in all your posts in this thread.  You're emotionally, physically , and mentally exhausted.  Marriage isn't supposed to be a place you go to give and give and give only to rarely have your needs met or feel loved and important.  And that is where I am also.  I'm checking out.  I'm not saying you should but rather relating to your situation, having empathy and sharing my life experience.

Thru the loss of my father last year my wife was cruel, distant, and inconsiderate at best.  She never once just asked if I am okay during or since his passing.  She ran around the funeral home comforting anybody that was not me.  Anytime I am having a tough time she acts like I am so out of line to be experiencing grief.  "Oh God, I thought you were over that."  And she storms out of the room talking under her breath but loud enough for me to hear her saying hurtful things about me.  She has also since started calling me "An a**hole just like your father" since his passing as well.  We had our house appraised for a re-fi and the guy doing the appraisal had spoke about just losing his father.  My wife fell all over guy with empathetic remarks and validating his loss, his feelings, how his life must be so tough now.  I about friggin lost it.  My blood boiled as I experienced such a rush of emotion watching my wife be so kind and seemingly caring toward a total stranger when I am so starved for that from her.  It was a crossroad for me and it sounds like you also may be at crossroad in your life.

It's time to decide what you want for yourself.  Myself I decided I'm going to get old. This I know. Things will happen out of my control.(like my father's death)  Maybe I won't have the energy to constantly validate this black hole as I age.  Maybe I would like to truly relax again, or not have to watch my words so closely, or always be the patient, forgiving, always looking the other way, and forget about my needs or wants with all that I say and do.  It's exhausting.  I get it.  I used to be like form flier and the others.  I used to have endless patience but with the passing of my father and me realizing what I truly have,(or will never have) that patience evaporated.  I need more than this woman is capable of giving.  You sound like maybe you're there also.

Like the others have suggested I think it might be best to take a true appraisal of your life situation past, present and future then decide what direction you want for yourself and your kids.  I think not knowing which direction you're going causes much stress and makes us inconsistent with our behaviors.  Once you decide and commit to the direction you want to take this I think things might improve.  Or at least you'll have a goal to work toward.  Best of luck to you friend.  My heart and prayers go out to you.

[Notwendy]

My words hurt her.  Her silence hurts me.  I try very hard to not be hurtful and seem to not succeed at all.  

I don't know the answer to this. You are both hurting. When this happens you are both in victim position on the drama triangle. I don't think a pwBPD is going to let go of this perspective. It seems victim perspective is a filter for how they interpret things. I don't know what the original dynamic was in your relationship but if it was you as rescuer, caretaker, and you stopped, she would think this was hurting her on purpose- even if you are feeling hurt too.

This feeling of victim position isn't logical. In my own FOO I observed this when my elderly father got ill. He was the rescuer to BPD mom, but his condition made it not possible- he was the one who needed care. It was obvious to anyone that he didn't choose this situation- to not be able to be her rescuer. However, emotionally, BPD mother responded as if he was doing this to her on purpose. He was truly in victim position- not a relationship victim, but physically but from BPD mother's emotional perspective- she was resentful- she's in victim position and the dynamics between them changed. The rescuer/victim relationship between them was a strong bond for them. It worked that way but not the other.

I think this dynamic also relates to lastbreath's situation where your wife was not able to comfort you in your grief.

Woodchuck, in your posts you are attempting to gain consideration from your wife for things like your birthday, your wish to not have company and are disappointed each time. From my own observation, I don't think a person in victim position can get past that and consider someone else's feelings or emotional needs. When someone is hurting, they are focused inwardly. The two of you seem to be in a victim position gridlock. To change this, someone has to move out of that. That's not likely to be her.

How will you move out of this? Her silence feels hurtful to you. It's probably not about you but her focus on her own hurt and seeing you as the cause. You have to in the best way you can- see this as being about her, not you, and not let it hurt you. Self care is often a way to get past this- I don't know what you are doing for yourself- but self care can help you to shift your focus off what she is doing and on to you. If she's going to be silent anyway, there isn't much you can do about that, but you can try to manage your feelings and take your focus off it as much as possible. Maybe that will help you decide on your next step- to move away from the relationship emotionally or towards it again- whatever you choose.

[Woodchuck]

I do need to work on using less words.  I saw a post on social media this weekend that stated, 'Never pass up an opportunity to shut the #$%@ up.  I need to do that more often.
Lastbreath -
Thank you for your post.  I am exhausted and I think what compounds the problems is that my job has very little satisfaction as well.  The only escape is my woodshop and I have limited time for that, although if I am honest, there are many times that I do have time but I cannot get myself to get out into the shop and get started on something.  Your W does sound very similar to mine and it (the relationship with that person) is not a fun or 'safe feeling' place to be.  I am fairly certain about what I want for myself, I am just on the fence as to what would really be best for the kids.  I do need to set some goals in regards to where I want things to go.

Notwendy -
The typical dynamic for me personally would be rescuer.  I have moved more to victim, I guess mainly because it is less exhausting than rescuing.  You can't rescue someone that doesn't want rescued.  I have avoided the victim mentality, at least in part due to believing that everything that I am experiencing is what I deserve for past failures/mistakes.  I have slowly been adjusting my thinking on that where I believe there has to be some point where we move on and enjoy life.  I understand where you are coming from as far as the victim gridlock.  I believe that I go out of my way very consistantly to take her feelings and emotional needs into consideration.  9 times out of 10, that consideration is rejected.  That, on top of my perception that my thoughts or feelings don't matter at all really makes for a tough scenario. 

WC

[Harri]

This thread has reached the post limits and has been locked.  Please feel free to continue the discussion in a new thread.