What could I do differently? - Conversation analysis -

[JoeBPD81]

ME: My sister and family are coming this weekend (to town). But I told them you and the kids are sick. Even if tomorrow they are better, you deserve to have the day as you want. (she's been sick and taking care of 2 sick kids).

SHE: You can do what you want, you have no obligation towards us. I would leave the house for the day so you can have visits, but I don't feel good, neither the kids do, sorry.

ME: What I want is that you can have some rest. I would take the kids to my brother's for lunch, so you can rest, but you usually don't like when we do that, and maybe they won't be well enought to go.

SHE: Whatevs
I don't know what you want me to tell you. Or, I think I do, and I already told you, do what you want, you don't know me anything, and the normal thing to do is to go spend the day with your family.

ME: Thanks. To me the normal thing is to stay with you guys.

I wanted you to trully tell me if it would be a good thing to you that I take them out for lunch. But I know you can't tell me without knowing if they will be OK tomorrow.

SHE: I'm telling you that it has anything to do with their health, if they were OK I would tell you the same. It's pissing me off so much talking nonsense.

ME: OK, case closed.

SHE: I tell you you don't owe me anything, you don't have any obligation.

I'm sorry it's so uncomfortable to talk about everything. It's not on purpose. But talking bluntly makes it go faster. I don't want to be rude to you, I hope at least you know that.

ME: It's OK honey.

My family says "get well soon".

SHE: I don't know if you are pulling my leg, but I'm too tired to think about it, I don't care. Kids are always dissapointed when they can't go to your brother's. I don't know why I keep talking with you, and I'm getting angrier and angrier.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Enabler]

Hey Joe,

What I sense is that you're going into her front garden (boundary metaphor) and doing some weeding and she's telling you to not bother. You ask her again because you think it has lots of weeds and you also figure that she will ultimately say later down the track "Why did you not weed my front garden, you can see it has a lot of weeds." You're airing on the side of caution because a) it's a kind thing to do b) you're concerned about the emotional pain of being accused of being unkind and inconsiderate when later she decides you should have weeded.

I wonder whether or not your stance should be more a case of standing on your side of her fence (personal boundary) and shout over "Cooey, I noticed you're not well at the moment, and wondered if you fancied me popping in for a short while to do your weeding for a bit to take the load off. What do you think?"... ."Whatever"... ."Okay, be there in a jiffy". Accept her answer and move on and take the kids to your brothers.

Then, later when the inevitable double blind arrives, act as dumb and as surprised and confused as you possibly can whilst backing away and removing yourself from the conflict as quickly as possible. Most partners are told that they need to be more sensitive, more in tune with their partners comments. I'm suggesting you be in tune with her needs, offer to salve genuine need and de-sensitise yourself to about turn double blind. If she starts to learn that you will not participate in games that you will take her for her word and desist in the dance, maybe there's hope for less drama induced confusion.

I think as Nons I think we buy into the pwBPD need to have options... .sometimes you are to believe what I say and sometimes you are not. This is maddening, teach her that you will take her for her word consistently regardless of her post event about turns. Doesn't rescue her from her change of heart.

Enabler

[JoeBPD81]

You know my English is not a 100%, so I got a bit lost in the metaphor. But I think I got the essence.

This is a constant in our RS. It drove me mad at the beginning, and I'm not handling it well even today. I ask "What do you want?"(regarding a situation) and she answers "Do whatever you want."

I think she hates the emotion of having to choose, and the responsibility of doing so.

I want to convey the message that I'm OK with any option, but I would like to do what causes her less distress. But this gets me an angry girlfriend every time.

I'm getting to a point that I'm so confused that I think : Am I an insensitive a-holXX? Am I a good person, or just trying to look like one?

I'm not fishing for validation, you don't know if I'm a good person or not. But maybe you can relate about the feeling. Having someone often angry, dissapointed, accusing, and supecting you, makes you look over your shoulder and know you're on the possition of the bad guy. Doesn't it?

When the police stops me for an alcohol test, I know I havent drink a drop, but still I get very nervous, and I supose I act as guilty.

[Enabler]

100% empathise with that feeling. That's one of the crazy making things about these kinds of relationships. Like you say, when the bleeper goes off at a store because the checkout person hasn't taken a tag off... .well, you feel like you're a shoplifter even though you know you aren't. The point is that you know with a high degree of certainty that your SO has disordered thinking. You can put those accusation into that model and use that to support the rationale that you haven't done anything wrong and this is why she is accusing you of xyz. It's tough because this isn't a natural way of thinking... .but this is the shield you need for your soul. This is what I was trying to get at in this thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=333637.msg13033122#msg13033122

Enabler

[itsmeSnap]

SHE: You can do what you want, you have no obligation towards us

Hall pass, good thing or baited arrow?

ME: What I want is that you can have some rest. I would take the kids to my brother's for lunch, so you can rest, but you usually don't like when we do that
SHE: Whatevs
I don't know what you want me to tell you. Or, I think I do, and I already told you, do what you want, you don't know me anything, and the normal thing to do is to go spend the day with your family.

Ah, it was a baited arrow. "Do what you want, you'll do it anyway, you don't care about me". Just to be clear, the 'normal' thing is actually to spend the day with family, though it doesn't have to be all day and night and lunch and dinner.

ME: Thanks. To me the normal thing is to stay with you guys.

Phrasing could use some tuning, otherwise it could come off as "you're wrong, being with my family is not normal, staying here with the kids is more important than what you said"

Can be as simple as "You're right, though I'd actually prefer to stay home and spend time with you guys"

[ME:]I wanted you to trully tell me if it would be a good thing to you that I take them out for lunch. But I know you can't tell me without knowing if they will be OK tomorrow
SHE: I'm telling you that it has anything to do with their health, if they were OK I would tell you the same

I'd have to agree with the wife on this one, you yourself admit staying home is the better option, and yet you push for taking them out to lunch. you're basically saying "I think we should stay home, please tell me you think taking them out to lunch is a bad idea".

Not much room for negotiation really, so it becomes "agree with me because I say so".

I'm sorry it's so uncomfortable to talk about everything. It's not on purpose. But talking bluntly makes it go faster. I don't want to be rude to you, I hope at least you know that.

ME: It's OK honey.

Glimmer of hope, she tries 

I don't care. Kids are always dissapointed when they can't go to your brother's. I don't know why I keep talking with you, and I'm getting angrier and angrier.

Projection: She would like to spend time with you and your family but she's not feeling well so she says the kids would be disappointed. Anger ensues over having few "positive" options (its either you stay and don't see your family, guilt, or you go see your family and she doesn't get to spend time with you, abandonment) and no way to communicate them effectively

To be fair this sounds like a good enough exchange. There was agreement and a willingness to cooperate in the future, even with acknowledgment about being aware of issues.

Enabler offers solid advice here.

Just curious, what would you have liked the outcome of the conversation to have been?

I ask "What do you want?"(regarding a situation) and she answers "Do whatever you want."

Said every gf ever 
No but seriously, this is not just "a BPD thing".

Am I an insensitive a-holXX? Am I a good person, or just trying to look like one?

If you have to ask then you're likely not. insensitive  a- -'s simply do not care enough to wonder about it. Don't sweat it Joe.

When the police stops me for an alcohol test, I know I havent drink a drop, but still I get very nervous, and I supose I act as guilty.

I know my g- -amn rights and I pay my m- -ing taxes, either charge me or let me go, what's it gonna be officer?   

I did that once: got a ticket, challenged it in court, got it annulled. it was a fun day 
 

[JoeBPD81]

when the bleeper goes off at a store because the checkout person hasn't taken a tag off... .well, you feel like you're a shoplifter even though you know you aren't.

Exactly

Just curious, what would you have liked the outcome of the conversation to have been?

Truth is that I fear the worst, so I don't communicate effectively at all.

I suppose I'd want her to say:

"I'd like if you stayed with us, I'm so tired and the kids are a handful, but I want you to see your family, so don't feel obligated."

Then I'd say "I don't feel obligated, I want to stay too".

And in a perfect world, she would say "Thanks, love. You're a wonderful man. As soon as I feel better I'm gonna send the kids somewhere for the day and we're gonna spend it in bed (not sleeping)"

[Enabler]

"I'm not dying, you go out with the kids, I'm just going to curl up and get over this. Could you grab me a bar of chocolate from the store on your way back please."

Wouldn't that be better? Isn't that what you would do in the same position?

Enabler

[JoeBPD81]

Any option would be OK, I wasn't partial to any one.

For me, a day alone is great. But I don't have abandonment issues. And she's always fed up with the kids, but she misses them terribly when they are away.

Anyway, today she's angry because I'm too critical about S12. And I am, only I'm half as brutal as she is with her comments. So she gets that it's impossible for her not to lecture and complain about her son, even when you try your best, but I'm supposed to be constructive and keep my cool while he abuses S7 and her.

We've been roller skating for some weeks now. The little one tries everything and he's already doing great. The older one spends most of the time sitting on a bench, and complaining, and berating the little one. It is very obvious that S7 skates way better than S12. And we praise both, but after S12 saying to S7 that he's so clumsy, and dumb, and doesn't know to do anything... .All the time,  I've been biting my tongue to not say "He's 10 times better than you!" And I managed, but mom had to say it in the end. "Stop it already, he skates much better than you!".

So she losses her patience sooner and more often, but she can't relate when I do. She goes into mother lionesse mode. And "disordered me and my disordered kids against the rest of the world, no one loves us, no one understands us... ." When I say the same things she says, I don't understand anything, and I'm harmful to the kid.

[Enabler]

Find a way to work with that as that's a known known... .the way I understand it, 'Attack' is off the table... .BUT... .'Defense' is not off the table. In this situation you have 2 options 'attack'... .i.e. tell S12 he's being a pr!ck, or 'defense', tell S7 he's rocking it and to ignore S12. S12 already knows what he's doing hence why he's doing it (assume people aren't stupid and they are relatively conscious). Telling him he's acting like a pr!ck is just confirming what he already knows and intending to be... .NO ONE EXPECTS YOU TO IGNORE HIM, least of all S12.

We tell people on the boards all the time to rise above and get on with things as the biggest come back to narcisists... .well this is a great skill to teach your S7, one that will serve him well for the rest of his life. Focus on your own game, not the noise from the sidelines.

Enabler

[JoeBPD81]

Yeah, that's what we do. That makes S12 more jealous, and he gets nastier, trying to make S7 fall, or stealing his hat and throwing it in the garbage can... .It never ends.

We know that too, so at the same time, we try to distract and redirect S12's energy. While the other of us is doing "defence" with S7.

I bet it's really harmful for him to see us protecting S7 as if from a criminal. But the minute we let our guard down, S7 gets hurt. And the rest of the time the bullying is constant.

It's a hard situation and neither of us react perfectly. I just wish she knew we are on the same boat. I wish I could be good for S12 while at the same time protect S7. But I feel that our lives are so driven by S12's needs that we neglect and fail to protect S7 often. And I don't have the solution.