Just learned about BPD.

[Bnonymous]

Hi Jonthan,

It sounds like you're learning a lot and making efforts to put that learning into action - that's great and should really help you see a difference in your relationship.

I think one thing you have to be careful of is falling into all-or-nothing, black-and-white thinking yourself. Yes, she probably has a mental illness which affects her perceptions of things, feelings about things, her abilities to regulate her emotions, and her abilities to self-soothe and relate in healthy ways.

BUT (and this is key here!) that does not mean that everything she says and does can be written off as a symptom, with no causes, triggers, or reasons outside of the illness. People with BPD are exactly that, people with BPD. She's a person first and foremost, with human fears and feelings and needs. And she has reasons for how she feels and what she does. These reasons might seem trivial to people without BPD. Her reactions might seem like over-reactions. Her responses to things might lack the balance and proportion of the responses of those without BPD. She may lack the moderation and restraint we usually associate with rationality. But she still has reasons. She still reacts and responds to outside things.

She reacts to the combination of events, her perceptions of events, and the feelings these perceptions generate. Just like everyone else does. The difference is that her perceptions might be a bit skewed (as everyone's are from time to time) and her feelings are likely to be more intense. But, if you don't recognise and acknowledge the simple human nature of reactions, then you are likely to make her feel both disrespected and invalidated and pour fuel on the fire.

BPD is likely a factor in how she reacts to things. But (to give a random, fictional example) if she blows up because she can't find her bank card, then she is blowing up because she can't find her bank card. And because she lacks the ability to regulate her feelings of frustration and disappointment and anxiety and helplessness at not being able to find something she needs, not "because she has a mental illness".

I appreciate that you're not saying this to her, but, if that's the underlying attitude you're approaching her with, she is very likely to pick up on it.

You know the line from Hamlet "There is a method to my madness"? Well, there's almost always a "method" to behaviour that, at first glance, might appear "mad" from the outside. As an empathetic listener, your job is to hear that "method," to hear her reasons, whether or not they seem reasonable to you. Do you see what I mean?

There is a wonderful quote from the philosopher, Ludwig Wittgenstein, that has a useful moral for us nons:

"You remind me of someone who is looking through a closed window and cannot explain to himself the strange movements of a passer-by. He doesn’t know what kind of a storm is raging outside and that this person is perhaps only with great effort keeping himself on his feet."

Do you see the problems and limits of the "mental illness" explanation?

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[Zakade]

Jonthan,

I don't want to speak for Once Removed but I think what he is trying to say is that you need boundaries and limits but be careful not to "demonize" your wife.  Like Bnonymous said, her reactions and/or stories might be inappropriate but her feelings are real and you have to own up to your side of the problem if the facts are present. 

You are right, no one is perfect and like a lot of us we came from messed up families before our SO wBPD.  My mother is undiagnosed BPD and my father is a recovering alcoholic/drug addict.  When she yelled at me as a child, she would be right in my face, screaming the whole time.  When she would ask me a question I was SOL (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=SOL).  She would hit me for not answering. She would hit me for answering too fast. She would hit if she thought I was being sarcastic (which was almost every time).  So yeah, I'm screwed up too.  We can only do what we need to do.  Learning a little more each day is key.  I think if you can do that, you are on the right track.  When you figure out you messed up, then apologize and move on.

[once removed]

Are you suggesting I'm too flippant in my diagnosis of her as mentally ill? Or too encroached in my perception that I'm not?

im suggesting a few things... .

1. some of what you are describing is not indicative of mental illness. saying "its not a gift because you didnt place it in my hands" is needy... .picky... .high maintenance. its also a clear communication of how she likes to receive gifts. not appreciating your gift because she hates plants... .well, thats a no brainer. talking about suicide over a disagreement with the neighbor/your text is extreme. not necessarily mental illness, but extreme.

2. it will help to separate what are common (even if dysfunctional), every day conflicts/disagreements from the extremes, from what is pathological/mental illness.

3. you are contributing to the dysfunction in the relationship. in order to improve things, you will need to see it, and shift to a healthier model.

1-  I put forth effort to help her.
2-  She rejects my efforts... .controls and criticizes me about the very thing I tried to do to help.
3-  It hits a nerve and I erupt into anger and try to force her to be rational.
4-  We both withdraw (... .probably both validated in our victim self-image.)
5-  She eventually makes it easier for me to come close (though usually hint-dropping and complaining rather than requesting).
I try again to connect... .and the cycle repeats.  

stop driving the cycle. change your actions, and your approach.

some of your efforts to help may be with good intentions, but are uninvited or unwelcome (anyone will resent us when thats the case.) im having trouble understanding why, when she clearly states "do not buy me the book", you consider buying her the book. or when she hates plants, and you buy her a plant, you dont understand why that would frustrate her. when we try to impart what we think is best for a person, rather than what they think is best for them, or what they ask for, we arent necessarily seeing them as a person, with hopes, dreams, desires, wants, needs. that is not lost on the person. they feel it.

meanwhile, when she clearly invites or welcomes you to help, you shut it down, place conditions on it, or demand graciousness and ways she can show appreciation.

ever seen the movie Beethoven? in case you or others following have not: in the beginning of the movie, a puppy wanders into a families home. the children, the mother are love struck and want to keep the puppy. dad says hell no. everyone in the family hates him. he gets it from all sides. he relents. suddenly, hes dad/husband of the year.

i am not telling you to buy your familys or your wifes affections. i am not suggesting you capitulate to every request, or try to improve your marriage through appeasement or become a doormat. im talking about building good will, hills to die on and not die on, and recognizing situations where Jonthan comes out smelling like a hero.

im talking about asking if you can help, or in some cases better yet, asking how you can help, and either giving that, or taking "no" as an answer, as opposed to a rejection of you as a person. if you try to give what is asked for, and you are criticized, listen. reflect back what you are hearing. say that youd like some time to think and consider what youve heard. do it. maybe bring it up in a few days, with a few clarifying questions. listen. reflect some more. if you still have a point youd like to make, if you want to ask her about ways, for example, that she can better communicate to you how you can help/what you can do, "i want to help, and i cant always get it right. it would help me better help you if/to know... ."... .thats the time; in calm, after you have listened and reflected. bring that stuff here for feedback while youre reflecting.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

That tendency to overdo it... .translates to a lot of areas.  That's my issue.  How do I address it?  I go see a therapist and we talk about my daddy leaving as a kid... . I did not show up to this marriage healthy.  This is a two-way street.  I get that.

when emotional intimacy dries up in a relationship, physical intimacy often follows. if we arent feeling close, connected, if there is ongoing resentment, physical intimacy is often far from at least one partys mind. the other party often fights harder for it, feels rejected, becomes resentful, becomes detached and distant, things get worse. the emotional part (connecting) is usually key to resolving this. it will take some time and effort.

[Jonthan]

Yes, she probably has a mental illness which affects... .
... .
BUT (and this is key here!) that does not mean that everything she says and does can be written off as a symptom, with no causes, triggers, or reasons outside of the illness. People with BPD are exactly that, people with BPD. She's a person first and foremost, with human fears and feelings and needs. And she has reasons for how she feels and what she does.
... .
Do you see the problems and limits of the "mental illness" explanation?

I think I see this.  In settling in on the label of BPD (after some apprehension in reading about how rarely borderlines recovery), I started to feel a very real hope that there are well-trodden paths and strategies toward recovery… if not for her, at least for me in living with her.  My reflections on this thread have expressed some of the liberation I feel with this diagnosis giving me permission to generally dismiss the criticism and blame that has been heaped upon me for years.  That is a huge shift for me, and it is liberating.  But… I hear you clearly cautioning that I not reduce the whole of our relationship to this sort of dismissiveness.  While BPD is a factor in how she reacts to things, there is danger in this sort of categorical thinking and labeling.  There is certainly more to her than this.

While this serves as a new paradigm that allows me to better focus on listening to her feelings… it may be okay to listen to her words sometimes as well.  In any case, I see clearly that I can do much better in learning how to listen.

1. some of what you are describing is not indicative of mental illness.

I have not approached anything I've said on this thread with the intent to persuade anyone of the BPD diagnosis for my wife.  That is the premise… and situations I've described are simply the most current day-to-day situations where I'm struggling to do better in my interactions with her.

im having trouble understanding why, when she clearly states "do not buy me the book", you consider buying her the book. or when she hates plants, and you buy her a plant,

She told me not to buy her the book after finding out from the kids that I had already done so.  I did not end up giving it to her. 

Her telling me she hates plants was again after my buying her one.  Has she said this before?  Yes.  But she also just bought a half dozen poinsettias, and the Christmas plant her client bought her still sits on the kitchen counter while mine went outside. 

This issue is not about books or plants… it's about her having trouble opening herself up to receiving things from me.  Have I done a hundred things wrong in how I approach giving?  I'm sure, but I think it may be appropriate to allow her to own her role in making it easier.  In any case, I lack the emotional fortitude to give deeply, when it's likely to be thrown back in my face. 

My "conditions" around going up to get the dog have resulted in her giving me a few clearly articulated ideas about what she would appreciate for Christmas.  We'll see how that goes, but I'm hopeful.

The puppy seems to be working out well.  I don't regret my refusal to make that happen for her.  Puppies are great teachers… and I appreciate her owning this decision wholly.  My role this past week has not been to withhold support in any sort of punitive way (I have helped a little), but this is her to own.  I think it'll be good for both the kids and for her.

[Only Human]

I am locking this thread because it has reached its length limit. The post originator is welcomed to open a continuation thread on this topic.  Have a great day.