Took a video of her behavior this morning - 4

[defogging]

Hey Defogging,

I totally get your frustrations. Reading Skips points I believe he knows EXACTLY where you are coming from, even though you may not yet be on the same page as him. He's seen the same cycle repeat itself multiple times... .myself included... .and that isn't AT ALL intended to be patronizing in the slightest, this stuff just plays out in the same old ways time and time again.

Regarding the game (Karpman Triangle) you seem to get embroiled in with your wife and the school run (the main example although I am very very very sure the same game gets played out via many different 'things' in the daily running of a home... .bathtime, bedtime, cooking, cleaning, washing, packing for holidays, family events... .driving... .gardening... .ANYTHING). Here's a good link called 3 faces of a victim, it's an excellent analysis of how we enter 'the game' and participate in 'the game'. https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/  . You are trying to change the way you enter, don't enter the game... .but somehow you're still in the game. For example she yells for help, you rescue... .you are starting gate rescuer (like me), yet you exit as perpetrator (like me). Staying out of the game feels almost impossible. The pressure to dance is off the clocks... .BUT YOU HAVE TO STAY OUT. The game almost ends up occurring on the sidelines and rather than you rescuing you're immediately shifted to perpetrator. I believe Formflier put it nicely when he said his T was trying to train him to be comfortable with people being angry, and be comfortable with people being angry with him.

I believe that I have managed to eliminate 95% of the my game participation just by being more aware when I enter the triangle and taking evasive action. The remaining 5% are times when I have lost control of my emotions... .and I hold myself 100% responsible for those times.

Enabler 

If I came across as defensive with Skip it wasn't intentional.  (can be tough to eloquently get your point across on an internet forum, especially when in a hurry)  It seemed like he thought my approach was "I'll lawyer up and take the kids away", but I know that's not realistic.  My parents got divorced when I was young (but remarried later) and I've seen friends go through it.  I know the unfortunate truth for me is that courts side with mom.

My approach is more that I know she's unpredictable and if she does something crazy like run off with the kids I do have legal rights in that situation.  I'm going to contact a lawyer to get a better understanding of things.  Frankly, I don't want to worry about her nuclear option until it happens, because as you know - once I expect one thing to happen the complete opposite will!  All his points were heard and appreciated.  Knowledge is power.

I've studied the Karpman triangle and have been working on staying out.  I've discussed it with a T as well.  I think I do pretty well most of the time.  My approach is to do what I can to minimize the impact on the kids.  

For instance, take this morning.  Same routine, kids woken up 5 minutes before departure and mom badgering them to hurry up or we'll be late.  Starts off with S3 crying, so I tend to him to get him dressed and in the car using fun/silly motivation.  "Are you the fastest dresser?  Which hand does this shoe go on?"  I was able to get him loaded and smiling.  D8 comes into my office while I'm tending to S3, she's older so I can calmly redirect her "D8, please go put your shoes on and grab the snack you want".  She does it with no objection and no drama.  Then D5 is crying while uBPDw is telling her to hurry up and get shoes on.  We're in the driveway, mom yells "where is D5?", I say I'll go get her, she is crying on the stairs while putting her shoes on.  I go to pick her up, uBPDw muscles her way in and grabs her, "c'mon D5 we need to go now!"  Totally dysfunctional and easily solved by waking the kids up 15 minutes earlier.

uBPDw won't change this routine, I accept that.  I don't engage with her about whether I'm helping or not, I just get the kids moving and minimize mom's impact on them.  Any bickering she does towards me is just white noise.  This was the discussion with my T, she suggested I intervene when I can reduce the amount of stress they have to deal with.  Otherwise, let uBPDw deal with her own consequences.

So I think I'm doing pretty well in this scenario, but tell me if you see any adjustments that can be made.

I've been working on not worrying about having people mad at me as well.  I read the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and it hit home with me.  I've been a problem solver for a long time and it hasn't worked, just led to me  being a frustrated man.  I've made a lot of adjustments and am happier because of them.

The only problem I see with allowing people to be mad at me is with my marriage.  Since I've been painted black for several years, due to not moving when she demanded it, her typical disposition is to be angry with me.  I've grown to not care, and I'm sure she picks up on that.  She's not able to get me to react much anymore, and I'm pretty numb to the relationship in general.  It doesn't help things, but how could I feel differently about it when I don't get much from her except resentment anyways?

[defogging]

(Enabler Quotes
But as Enabler wrote above, even now, I am still holding myself .100% accountable ... .'caretaker' ... .'rescuer' ... .'enabler' ... .for the recent crash of my own relationship ... .there is a proper 'term' for this ... .self blaming' ... .

You are in the midst of all of this defogger, keep your wits about you ... .think 'big picture' ... .long term, like ancient Chinese military tactics (there is a reason the Chinese are still around!) ... .ie' lose today, give up some dirt, "give up a little" ... .in order to win back a littlie tomorrow, ... .or a little more next year, or even more five years downrange ... .

Being a Daddy is the biggest responsibility in the universe, ... .your children need you defogger, you have a huge responsibility there, not only in regards to your wife, but those little ones as well ... .I have my own story about that ... .I know you are having a lot of problems with your wife (understatement), but as the other's said above, try your best to "dial it down' ... .I remember doing that myself, even in the 'face of' the 'storm' ... .in my first marriage, ... .not easy, or for the 'faint of heart' ... .but we do the best we can, ... .for our children.

Thanks for your support Red5, I appreciate it man! 

And I'll throw some back your direction - you are NOT 100% responsible for the demise of your marriage, don't allow yourself to believe that for a second.  Like you wrote before, her punching your son is a deal breaker.  (not to mention all the other deal breakers you witnessed)  You and your son didn't cause her behavior, just had to deal with it.  Stay strong and just look forward to the peace you have coming in your future.

Yep, the kids are the important thing.  I won't shirk my responsibility to protect them.  You're right, I can lose a little today to gain more tomorrow.  For me, that would be "go ahead and rain your abuse on me, if they're okay 20 years from now then I've won".

[Red5]

(degogger wrote)... ."For instance, take this morning.  Same routine, kids woken up 5 minutes before departure and mom badgering them to hurry up or we'll be late.  Starts off with S3 crying, so I tend to him to get him dressed and in the car using fun/silly motivation.  "Are you the fastest dresser?  Which hand does this shoe go on?"  I was able to get him loaded and smiling.  D8 comes into my office while I'm tending to S3, she's older so I can calmly redirect her "D8, please go put your shoes on and grab the snack you want".  She does it with no objection and no drama.  Then D5 is crying while uBPDw is telling her to hurry up and get shoes on.  We're in the driveway, mom yells "where is D5?", I say I'll go get her, she is crying on the stairs while putting her shoes on.  I go to pick her up, uBPDw muscles her way in and grabs her, "c'mon D5 we need to go now!"  Totally dysfunctional and easily solved by waking the kids up 15 minutes earlier."... .

I am curious defogger, where did your wife learn this behavior / parenting skill?
*Was she raised like this?
*Did her own foo mum / dad do this to her?

This is a 'learnt thing'... .

Maybe... .if you knew, maybe you could "re-program" her ... .no but seriously... .in maybe couples counseling, she could be shall we say "swayed"... .

Because guess what Brother, when your little ones are looking down at you (all grown up and in their early twenties)... .looking down at you across the mash potato's... .at the dinner table one day, this will come up... .

"Dad, do you remember when Mom used to get us up like five minutes before the car went down the driveway?... ."and I had to put my shoes on in the car, .why did she do that?"... .

The kids are going to remember this... .and it is right now being imprinted into their memories, and even their life "adaptive" programing... .

*"S3 crying... ."
*"I was able to get him loaded and smiling"
*"D5 is crying while uBPDw is telling her to hurry up and get shoes on"
*"where is D5?", .she is crying on the stairs while putting her shoes on"
*"D8 comes into my office while I'm tending to S3, she's older so I can calmly redirect her"

They are going to remember all this Man ; (

That's a fact Man... .

Something to consider,

Red5

[Skip]

For me, that would be "go ahead and rain your abuse on me, if they're okay 20 years from now then I've won".

It doesn't help to frame your relationship problems to yourself this way. Nothing good is going to come from it for you, your kids, or your wife.

Look back at this week. There was an ambush video. It was then sent to third parties.

But look one level deeper, your wife knew you were going to do this - she expects this of you - and tried to head it off.  

And look one level below that -  you felt abused when she did that.

My point is that this is not a story of a villain and a martyr. This is a story of an ongoing  cycle of conflict where fair fighting has gone out the door - a high conflict relationship.  You can't isolate one persons act in this environment and lay blame.

This morning squabble that the two of you have is infinitely resolvable. You present it as non-resolvable. It's resolvable.

[Enabler]

So I think I'm doing pretty well in this scenario, but tell me if you see any adjustments that can be made.

Are you able to get the kids up an hour earlier, have a calm morning and SHOW her how to create calm.

Hell she will scream at YOU, maybe even call you an idiot for disturbing the kids sleep... .but you will stand there letting all that float past you whilst you 'take your ears elsewhere' absorbing the nuclear shockwave... .until... .guess what, kids have a calm morning. Rinse repeat for 2 weeks if possible.

No smugness, no emotion, any response would be "I am doing this because I want to reduce MY stress in the mornings, I'd like to see how it goes". You are doing this to find resolution to a problem that you both know exists. Consistency is the key, no guilt or shame if it works... .it just happened and no one is right or wrong.

I have seen this work.

Unilaterally coming up with solutions without being asked to 'rescue' and owning it. Show... .don't tell. If she washes her hands of it all... .Own it all.

[defogging]

You are being defensive, defogging. You know that.

What i said was:

It doesn't help to frame your relationship problems to yourself in the way you are framing them.

You can hang on to this narrative - and that is your choice - but it is not serving you well now and it is not going to serve you well in the long run.

Letting go of it is the first step to resolving your morning dilemma - not changing the children's bedtime.

martyr noun  mar·​tyr | \ˈmär-tər  a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle

[defogging]

  Enabler

Tried it a bunch of times.  She shouts and bullys every day and tells the kids how bad dad is.  I guess I could keep doing it forever until she burns out?  Or is that fueling her dysregulations?

[defogging]

Tried it a bunch of times.  She shouts and bullys every day and tells the kids how bad dad is.  I guess I could keep doing it forever until she burns out?  Or is that fueling her dysregulations?

I'm going to expand on this, had to run to a meeting when I wrote it.

The result of waking them up on my own has been that it just angers uBPDw.  I don't care if she's mad at me, but I don't think it's any better for the kids to wake up an hour earlier if that time is spent listening to mom stomp around the house and trash talk their dad.  They're probably better off sleeping another 55 minutes and having 5-10 minutes of high stress while they get dressed.

[Red5]

... .5-10 minutes of high stress while they get dressed,

D8, D5, and S3 are going to be effected by this prolonged "behaviors" that your W is presenting.

... .high stress, .to a 3 year old?... .much less a five or eight year old.

Your their Dad, .

I'm going to write something that a lot of moderators / commenters may not like, .but here it is.

Your W be damned!... .DON'T let her give your little kid's freaking CPTSD!... .this is not right, and they should not have to endure this.

What she is doing is wrong Man... .

If it were me... .I'd take charge, and tell her to ___ and to stop this type of detrimental behavior around the kids, and to the kids.

The result of waking them up on my own has been that it just angers uBPDw.  I don't care if she's mad at me... .

So what... .she gets mad... .she's mad anyway.

BPD or not... .kids are first in my book,

Ok, off soap box.

Hang in there defogger, .hang in there Brother.

Red5

[Skip]

I'm going to write something that a lot of moderators / commenters may not like, ... .but here it is.

Your W be damned! ... .DON'T let her give your little kid's freaking CPTSD! ... .this is not right, and they should not have to endure this.

What she is doing is wrong Man... .

I think it's really good to make this point Red.

The hard question is "how did this approach work out for you?"  How has it worked out for other members. From my observation point, catastrophically bad, particularly when there is a shared child.

My Goldren Retriever picks up the tension when I get an email that upsets me. Children are much more intuitive than a dog. There was a lot of turmoil this week over the "video fight" and they absorbed it all.

One important point - children learn their romantic relationship skills from their parents. They learn how to love their partner from their parents.  They learn how to resolve conflict from watching their parents. They learn what a patriarch is from dad.

What are they learning right now?

I think defogging is at a juncture and there are three very different paths to take. A lot rests on making this choice.

Skip

PS: I don't want to dominate this thread or be repetitive, so I will step away for now and let you guys sort through this - take it the direction that is most comfortable. It has been a good discussion. I know this is not and easy situation or information that is easy to hear.

[defogging]

  Skip

Skip, I guess I don't know what to say.  Your posts are summing up the last 10 years of my life into several short sentences, telling me how I feel, what I consider to be abuse, etc.  I can't state my case without being labeled as defensive.  With the undertone that my actions have been a tit-for-tat game with her all along when that's not the case.  
 
I don't know the solution, that's why I'm here.  I don't see a solution.  I've tried every angle I can think of.  Let her do things her way - it creates problems for the family and we all get run over.  I try to bring some logic into things - it creates hostility which isn't good for the kids.

"how did this approach work out for you?"  Isn't that the whole issue with dealing with pwBPD?  In my situation every approach is counter-attacked from a different direction.  They create the chaos, expect us to solve it, then attack us for solving it the wrong way.  Then it's on to the next crisis.  If someone knows the right approach I would love to hear it, but there isn't one or else there would be a BPD guidebook and a very rich psychiatrist somewhere in the world.

[Skip]

My posts are friendly and compassionate advice from someone who is on your side.

[defogging]

My posts are friendly and compassionate advice from someone who is on your side.

Skip - I appreciate that you're on my side, but I have to be honest about my frustration with your posts. 

From my perspective they come across as "your approach didn't work, there is an approach that will work".  Perhaps you're trying to get me to find it on my own, but I'd love more guidance.

For instance:

"there are three different paths defogging can take".  Please expand on this, I clearly don't know what they are.

"It doesn't help to frame your relationship problems to yourself in the way you are framing them."  I do have other ways I frame my situation, my one sentence about "let the abuse rain down" does not encapsulate all my thoughts.  Please share some ideas for how to better frame it.

[Enabler]

Defogging and skip,

I can see both sides here. On the one hand I utterly get what skip is aiming for, on the other I see defoggings frustrations where he sees himself having done all that he can, every avenue to aim for that. Yes, defogging has eluded to a war like situation of me vs her but being compassionate and empathetic towards him I can see how this might slip in. Yes there has been some battle behaviour which I believe defogging may be self-justifying, and again I can see why he might do that. That said, what does loving behaviour look like skip when even when one tries to take ones own path?

All I can give is my own example, which hasn’t been very effective at ceasing divorce proceedings, maybe because it was too late and he contempt was too entrenched, but, I took my own path. My path was a loving and caring one, it does try and have a smiling face, it does suck it up... .but, it doesn’t fuel the fire of conflict, it responds not reacts and it certainly doesn’t validate the invalid. It rathers say nothing than something regrettable, it rathers absorb data than shame, it rathers show than tell and it prefers to show my kids what kindness in the face of adversity looks like rather. This is done consistently... .or at least that’s the aim.

The problem I have that perfection is impossible in the face of such intense scrutiny. Being unchanging in ones path feels invalidating, yet constantly checking leads to whipsawing

What are the children learning? I’m not sure and I’d imagine it’s very child dependant... .but actually I guess they are learning how to survive amongst chaos, preempt peoples (mum and dads) next flare up, manage other people’s emotions and most likely be conflict avoidant.

What do you suggeat skip?... .and let’s assume unilateral collaboration is off the table, since in reality it is.

[Skip]

"let the abuse rain down" does not encapsulate all my thoughts.

You have 100+ posts here... .my sense of where you are is from your collection of posts, in total.

"your approach didn't work, there is an approach that will work".  Perhaps you're trying to get me to find it on my own, but I'd love more guidance.

You do have to find it. We are all here to help with that when you begin that journey.

But at the most basic level, you can't be at war with your wife (and her family), have kids, and expect that your not sitting on a smoldering bomb. Read Gottman (we have some articles here)... .the relationship is going to fail and fail big. The resentment will escalate to the point that it will become about punishing the other party. The kids will be the ultimate victims.

Do you believe that this might be true , df?  If so, you should get on another track, quickly. It might not be too late.

"there are three different paths defogging can take".  Please expand on this, I clearly don't know what they are.

  Plot a passive / peaceful exit (give in and get out).
  Invest in rehabilitating the relationship.
  Continue on the current trajectory to doomsday.

The thought that staying in a high conflict marriage (trajectory to doomsday) is best for the kids is likely not true. If this becomes the mega-battle you mentioned earlier in the thread (and said you don't fear), you will have kids between 5-15 watching their parents in a brutal fight and being encouraged to take sides.

Plotting a passive exit in a year or so would be about letting go of the fight, building bridges to her family for after the divorce (you need some allies on her side of the family or they will all gang up against you with the kids, doing stuff that custody evaluators will like, making peace with your wife  - that type of thing.

Invest in rehabilitating the relationship would be to start modeling DBT tools in the family, creating more structure, being more emotionally in tune and less emotionally volatile with wife.  It may be too late, as you say, but you could try just to make sure.

These are 35,000 ft. olutions, but that is where this needs to start.

Make sense?

[Red5]

Morning defogger!

How are you this morning?

Hope things are a bit better for you and your household,

Hope you have an awesome day today, we are all out here listening and sending good karma your way Brother!

Hug them youngins !

Red5

[defogging]

Morning defogger!

How are you this morning?

We had a good morning today, tension level was much lower.  Still don't quite understand how, they left the house ten minutes before school started and it's a 30 minute drive.     But I'll take it!

Overall things are much better than they were over the weekend.  Thanks Red5!

Skip -

The three solutions make perfect sense, but I see pitfalls with every option.

Plot a passive / peaceful exit (give in and get out).    Even if I leave peacefully, it won't be peaceful from her direction.  Kids placed in the middle, new dad introduced, continued accusations.

Invest in rehabilitating the relationship.  For three years prior to being on BPD Family I was trying this while a war was being waged on me, didn't even know that was happening until people told me.  I don't know how to rehab a relationship with someone that cannot take responsibility for themselves and can only blame.  Seems like if I try to rehab the relationship then it just becomes a one-sided war while I'm trying to make peace.  Maybe that works long enough until the kids get older, who knows.

Continue on the current trajectory to doomsday.  I agree being at war is not a great idea, that was not my intent when I started standing up to her.  How do you protect the kids?  I don't think allowing her to trample everyone is healthy.  I will look at the DBT tools to see what I am missing.

"The thought that staying in a high conflict marriage (trajectory to doomsday) is best for the kids is likely not true. If this becomes the mega-battle you mentioned earlier in the thread (and said you don't fear), you will have kids between 5-15 watching their parents in a brutal fight and being encouraged to take sides."

I don't know how to feel about this statement.  Most of the conflict originates with her day-to-day intimidation, and I selectively engage only when she is attacking the kids.  If I stay - I can intervene and hopefully help the kids to create their own boundaries (not just with her, but in general) and self esteem.  If we split up - They are sitting ducks and will be intimidated to the point they are afraid of their own shadow.

The thought that keeps re-occurring to me is what I read/heard awhile back about how BPD is a self-fulfilling prophecy.  "I'm afraid this person will leave me", which creates the terrible behavior out of fear.  Then that behavior in itself is what causes people to leave.  In my situation it feels like no matter what I have tried it's been an ever-increasing test from her to prove that I won't leave.  At some point it is bad enough that you want to.

[Skip]

And I said this earlier, I don't think you are being honest with yourself. You have this vision /narrative of a villain and a ______ (choose a word that you like for yourself).  

Read this. Is this a man intervening in a constructive way to help his children?

This morning I pushed the envelope and took a video of it all.  She got mad and I told her it was so she could watch it later.  She started the car, pulled out of the garage before my son was ready, then came back in the house.  Son was crying because he thought she was leaving.  She ripped the phone out of my hands and demanded I delete the video.  I went and grabbed her keys out of the ignition so she would give my phone back.  Then she threatened me with divorce, and threatened to call my boss and tell him I'm not coming to work today.  I stood my ground.  Told her I'm not deleting the video, and feel free to call my boss.

I sent the video to my family, they are aware of what is going on but don't see it firsthand.  

In my situation it feels like no matter what I have tried it's been an ever-increasing test from her to prove that I won't leave.  At some point it is bad enough that you want to.

I think a more important thing to understand is that people with BPD have inherent trust issues and they harbor a great deal of shame. Events like the video are a red hot poker in the eye to a person with BPD.  It's not just drawing blood - its arterial blood.

Frankly, if my partner did this to me, I would be gone. How do you trust someone who does something like this? If I had BPD, the feelings would be amplified.

Before you get upset, please know that I am not excusing her behavior or minimizing how difficult she is to live with or even questioning the importance of proving to your family that she is the "bad one".  

All I am saying is that your drew arterial blood.

The number one reason people with BPD walk out is "lack of trust". I don't know how many severely damaging things have happened in the last 4 years, but these are not wounds that go away - they fester and grow and then one day all hell breaks loose (and guys go "I didn't see that coming").

This is why I'm saying the current trajectory is on a doomsday path.

If I stay - I can intervene and hopefully help the kids to create their own boundaries (not just with her, but in general) and self esteem.  

Only if she doesn't blow and leave... .

Skip

PS: That was my last post, respectfully. Give it some thought. Kick it around.

[flourdust]

Hi, df! Thanks for engaging in this discussion. I've been where you are and went through some similar thought processes. Maybe I can help you look clearly at your options.

I notice there's kind of a running theme here -- she's an aggressor/attacker (may be true) and you need to fight back. This is where the cycle of conflict comes from -- people on the outside see that both of you are fighting. Your reason is "she started it." Her reason might be the reverse. But, it's still both of you fighting. Eventually, you lose the thread of who is allegedly to blame for throwing the first punch, and it's all about making sure you each respond to the last punch.

Let's talk about the three options.

Plot a passive / peaceful exit (give in and get out).    Even if I leave peacefully, it won't be peaceful from her direction.  Kids placed in the middle, new dad introduced, continued accusations.

Yes, there is some truth here. Divorcing or separating won't make your problems go away. But, please don't see it as a black and white choice between conflict and no conflict. Divorce often does have the effect of reducing conflict. You aren't living together, you do parenting separately, you can make your home and time with the kids a positive and loving environment, you can put some structure around a parenting plan that reduces (doesn't eliminate!) conflicts over parenting.

It's the difference between screaming fights every day in front of the kids ... .and the occasional tense exchange during a handoff and nasty accusations by email now and then. See the difference? This will make both a positive change in your life and the kids'.

Invest in rehabilitating the relationship.  For three years prior to being on BPD Family I was trying this while a war was being waged on me, didn't even know that was happening until people told me.  I don't know how to rehab a relationship with someone that cannot take responsibility for themselves and can only blame.

Our "Bettering" board and various relationship tools and workshops here are aimed at understanding how to do this. There is no guarantee of success ... .but it can help lower the temperature and make your home life tolerable (especially for the kids), if not wonderful. It does take letting go of the need to defend yourself and fight back, though.

Continue on the current trajectory to doomsday.  I agree being at war is not a great idea, that was not my intent when I started standing up to her.  How do you protect the kids?  I don't think allowing her to trample everyone is healthy.  I will look at the DBT tools to see what I am missing.

Engaging in constant warfare is also not healthy. We see a lot of failures that start out as "staying for the kids," which actually means "co-creating a horrible environment for the kids."

What do you think? Does this make sense? Which of these options feels do-able?

[defogging]

I notice there's kind of a running theme here -- she's an aggressor/attacker (may be true) and you need to fight back. This is where the cycle of conflict comes from -- people on the outside see that both of you are fighting. Your reason is "she started it." Her reason might be the reverse. But, it's still both of you fighting. Eventually, you lose the thread of who is allegedly to blame for throwing the first punch, and it's all about making sure you each respond to the last punch.

I'll go back to what Notwendy and others said about lack of executive function.  I think a lot of our problems come from there.  What I see is her making decisions without my input, I disagree (unless I like the idea), then she feels I don't listen to her.  I think she has real difficulty working a plan, or coming to an agreement with others.  She does come at it aggressively, it feels like she is trying to shove an idea down your throat.  She has success with her methods when dealing with her FOO so that is the model she knows, but it doesn't work for me or the kids.

Take the moving issue for instance.  In a nutshell - she wants to move, has decided on the where/when already.  I don't see that we need to move.  I'm willing to move, not to the neighborhood she has selected, but she won't accept another option.  This has been a huge battle, and is where a lot of our current issues tie back to.  In my opinion she hasn't taken the necessary steps to research it, but maybe it's because she can't.  I haven't done the research because I felt we didn't need to move so it was up to her.  Maybe this is part of the relationship I need to accept, that she isn't capable of the research and I need to do it for her so we can think through all the steps.

Yes, there is some truth here. Divorcing or separating won't make your problems go away. But, please don't see it as a black and white choice between conflict and no conflict. Divorce often does have the effect of reducing conflict. You aren't living together, you do parenting separately, you can make your home and time with the kids a positive and loving environment, you can put some structure around a parenting plan that reduces (doesn't eliminate!) conflicts over parenting.

It's the difference between screaming fights every day in front of the kids ... .and the occasional tense exchange during a handoff and nasty accusations by email now and then. See the difference? This will make both a positive change in your life and the kids'.

I agree it's not black and white, I do see some positive aspects coming from a divorce.  I know I would be happy that I am able to be the dad I want to be when it's my time with them.

Here are my concerns with divorce.  The false allegations already against me (abuse, alcoholism, etc) and the parental alienation that is already taking place.  That would increase.  I'd bet the divorce would be very ugly and she would attempt to completely remove me from their lives.  She needs to be around the kids a lot, I don't think she could handle them being with me 50% or even 35% of the time.  The other thing is she has a history prior to me of several multi-year relationships that didn't work out, with very little time in between.  Based on this I believe she would start relationships with other men and move them into her house very quickly.  Then the kids would be subject to another high conflict relationship every day, just with someone else.

I love my kids very much, and don't want to be alienated from them or have them be subject to any high conflict relationship.  If I'm the one in the house, then at least it's up to me to manage my emotional side of things.

We actually don't scream and fight every day, FYI.  I've gotten a lot better about not engaging with her.

Our "Bettering" board and various relationship tools and workshops here are aimed at understanding how to do this. There is no guarantee of success ... .but it can help lower the temperature and make your home life tolerable (especially for the kids), if not wonderful. It does take letting go of the need to defend yourself and fight back, though.

I acknowledge that I need to get better at this relationship if we choose to stay in it, so I will look more at the tools on the site.

I don't defend myself much anymore, she can say what she wants about me.  I've gone through the phases of attacking her back and ending up in circular arguments, then becoming more depressed in/about the relationship, to relaxing my ego and letting go of things said about me by taking care of myself and setting boundaries.  I'm far from perfect though, and not where I need to be yet.

It's more about me defending the kids than myself.  I remember reading a thread on here - someone with a BPD mom had residual issues with her and felt hurt that her dad never stood up for her when she was young.  That hit a chord with me.  I don't want to be the dad that never stood up for my kids against their own mother.

I don't know where to find the balance there.  Forcing the kids to fend for themselves is unacceptable, they're no match for her.  But I shouldn't start conflict by engaging with uBPDw at the drop of a hat, and I don't.  I try to stay out of it unless I can see they really need help (crying, scared, mom is being unreasonable).  When I do intervene it's usually in a calm manner "Hey guys, let's take a break for a minute, okay?".  Sometimes uBPDw turns and attacks me, sometimes not.  When she does I try to calm the situation as best I can, at least our kid isn't the target anymore.

Engaging in constant warfare is also not healthy. We see a lot of failures that start out as "staying for the kids," which actually means "co-creating a horrible environment for the kids."

Again, it's not an environment of constant shouting matches even though some posters have gotten that impression based on one ugly incident.  It's more of an environment where mom and dad live separate lives, and there's an avoidance of dialogue and big issues (on both sides).  There are a lot of negative "bombs" that get dropped, but typically ignored by me.

I've grown very frustrated with her because she always seems "too busy" to talk about anything, or isn't willing to send the kids to Gma/Gpa's for the day so we can talk some things out.  Admittedly, I gave up on dialogue awhile back and it hasn't helped.  Perhaps I need to step up and make the decision for her, and schedule time for us to work out things. 

Would you believe we haven't spent a weekend together, without the kids, since D8 was born?  Eight years of work, kids, sleep, and chores on the weekends will wreak havoc on any marriage.

What do you think? Does this make sense? Which of these options feels do-able?

That all makes sense, and I see where I can make some changes to improve things.  Any and all options are on the table right now, with the avoidance of warfare being preferred.

[flourdust]

I see where I can make some changes to improve things.  Any and all options are on the table right now, with the avoidance of warfare being preferred.

That's good! Taking a breather to reflect (and reading through some of the workshops and guides here) can help -- you don't need to follow any recommendations slavishly, but reading them can help you ask yourself the right questions in the right way.

Just one thing I want to highlight -- we often talk about FOG (Fear, Obligation, and Guilt) as a set of cognitive distortions that can trigger distorted reactions from us. Here's a nice summary of this. Consider what you said here... .

Here are my concerns with divorce.  The false allegations ... .would increase.  I'd bet the divorce would be very ugly and she would attempt to completely remove me from their lives. ... .I believe she would start relationships with other men and move them into her house very quickly.  Then the kids would be subject to another high conflict relationship every day, just with someone else.

There's a lot of Fear here ... .but it's fear of a future that you really can't know will happen. And it's one you are painting as dark as possible through another psychological process called catastrophizing.

What if the worst doesn't happen? What if you can (through the mechanisms for parental control given to you by a divorce decree) prevent the worst?