I’m setting Boundaries, Now I’m a Covert Narcissist

[Cailin]

I told my husband in mediation ( we use a mediator to talk to each other about important topics, not a therapist. This seems to have been the best choice of a third party so far because it isn’t threatening, the mediator is just there to help facilitate dialog). I told him that I do not want to be raged at ( 7 years of raging is enough, he once went for 6 hours straight), that he could rage but that I would stop engaging and leave. So of course, he starts raging  again last week, pounding on the kitchen window and raging at me from outside. I have stayed away from him now for a week ( he moved into a little cabin on our property 5 years ago because I can’t have him around my children) and will only text him about work stuff ( we have a farm). The other boundary I have set is that I will no longer talk about or apologize for my imaginary infractions. He is so good at taking benign comments and twisting them to make it appear as though I am victimizing him. I’m done apologizing for what he only imagines that I’ve done. Now he says I’m a narcissist because I “never apologize” for anything.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ozzie101]

Good for you for setting boundaries and walking away! That's something I'm struggling with and haven't figured out.

My husband, too, is good at twisting things in a negative way. He's also very good at accusing me or others of doing things -- or ascribing motives that aren't there.

I don't get the "never apologize" but I do get the "never take his side." By take his side, he means confront people in the exact way he thinks is best, even if I can't agree with the method. For instance, if he feels my family has slighted him in some way, I should cuss them out and cut them off for months at a time. Definitely not something I would ever do.

When I try to exit a conversation, I'm "selfish" and only care about my own wants and needs -- like needing to go to bed when he's mid-rage at 1 a.m.

[Cailin]

Omg, that’s so selfish of you! Wanting to go to bed when he wants to pontificate on just what a worthless piece of manure you are! Oh god, the rages! It’s his verbal exhibitionism on steroids! Once I wanted to see just how long he could go. He started in at about 10 at night and did not stop until  5am! He was so tired that he walked away, but only after I suggested that he must be exhausted. And on “taking his side”, I have literally fired employees that he didn’t like for no good reason, only because failure to do so would be worse. I refuse to “take his side” against any of my children though. I’ll sleep under a bridge before I throw them under the bus!  Everyone is out to get him in some way or another, and I just don’t think like that.
I suggest that, when you do set a boundary, that you do it in the presence of a third party and that you have a plan for when he breaks it. I didn’t exactly know what I was going to do when he raged again, I hadn’t thought that far! So I just ended up “no contact” for a week, which is really minimal contact.

[Skip]

Since this is a educational board, I comment on these from a psychology perspective.

I told him that I do not want to be raged at ( 7 years of raging is enough, he once went for 6 hours straight), that he could rage but that I would stop engaging and leave.

It's reasonable that you don't want to be involved in arguments when he is "losing it".  Generally it's best to say that you will gladly sit down when he is calm and talk about it.

Just walking away from him will just enrage him more and he could escalate to be heard.

In essence, you want to make it clear that being heard is good (we all want to be heard), but when he gets emotionally flooded, that it is not a constructive time to talk.

Win. Win.

The other boundary I have set is that I will no longer talk about or apologize for my imaginary infractions. He is so good at taking benign comments and twisting them to make it appear as though I am victimizing him. I’m done apologizing for what he only imagines... .

This is not so constructive. If you shut these things down and essentially say I won't talk to you about things that bother you unless I deem them valid, you are essentially paving the very end of the relationship. These things  will smolder and eventually surface with more power.

I hear your frustration and I have lived these issues. How long have you two lived apart on the farm?  What is good about your relationship with him?

[Cailin]

Skip, with all due respect, I disagree. In my case anyway, all attempts to use that kind of strategy (win/win, “validate, empathize and tell the truth) not only don’t work, they make him even more angrier. He feels patronized and says things like “don’t try to therapize me” or “ just treat me like a normal person, not like some kind of retard from another planet.” So that’s what I’ve taken to doing (after 7 years of doing it the other way).You rage, bang on my kitchen window, I don’t talk to you for a week. You continue, I call the police. I’m pretty much over his tantrums and like any 2 year old, he needs limits and consequences. So we wil see if this works. So far it’s been a week and today he walked up to me, asked for a hug and a kiss and spoke to me as if the incident never occurred, happy as can be. So I hugged him, kissed him and went onto have a great day with him. So far, until the next time the rage starts and the allegations fly. I’m attempting to reinforce social, productive behavior, not antisocial behavior.
All that being said, I do appreciate your comments. We’ve been living separately for 5 years. It was his choice and he has never wanted to move back. He’s about a quarter mile from the main house, on our property. He is a brilliant person, very well paid in a position with an international firm that allows him to work from home, travel and have limited contact with his coworkers. He is enthusiastic about all my farming or professional endeavors and I appreciate that.

[once removed]

“validate, empathize and tell the truth) not only don’t work, they make him even more angrier. He feels patronized and says things like “don’t try to therapize me” or “ just treat me like a normal person, not like some kind of retard from another planet.”

im not one to advocate the use of that approach, specifically when someone is screaming at me. i dont think anyone is saying that. validation works great in times of calm. validation and empathy are not meant to calm someone down, necessarily. it can feel really condescending when youve lost it, and it sounds like thats what youve seen him express in the past.

its not usually constructive to talk to someone who is raging or screaming... .theyve already lost it, and all that can happen is we make things worse or lose it ourselves. but neither is it constructive to shut a person down in that moment. usually, they will up the ante.

a good middle ground is to (calmly, but firmly) state in a personalized and sincere way, that you dont think the conversation is constructive right now, that you need some time to think, that youre going to take that time, and then politely exit the conversation/stop engaging.

see the difference?

[Cailin]

Yes, I see the difference and I’m appreciative of your comments.
I don’t know if his brand of BPD is a particularly stubborn one or what but he seems to respond to being treated “normally”  much better, which does include some aggressive and forceful speech on my part. I had to back him down yesterday and it worked really well. It’s like he has no internal controls and relies on external controls to regulate himself. My problem is that I find it very difficult to love and respect him anymore. I’m very tired of being his parent. He is 61 but acts 3 when he is raging and tantruming. He keeps saying he’s done with this way of life but really, being his conscience is taking its toll on me.
I am a much stronger person now though, I have to admit. He’s like having an externalized version of your own worst internal critic. I have developed the capacity to recognize lies and exaggerations about my character and I’ve also learned to pay attention when he might be partly right. One thing for sure, I no longer see myself as harmless.