I suppose I should have done "a little thing"...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

There is another interesting thread where a discussion is going on about giving in to seemingly inauthentic requests or sticking to your guns.

Big picture:  Things have been really calm in our relationship for a while.  Yesterday my wife heads to the door with kids in tow saying she is going swimming and wants to know if I want to go.  (no plan... spur of the moment thing).

I thanked her for the thought and wished her a good time.  She asked why I didn't "want" to come and I assured her I wanted to but wasn't feeling the best and was trying to work through some stuff.  I had been sitting on couch for a bit having conversations with people and then working through a few things on my laptop.  Essentially several people relaxing together in the living room.

She seemed miffed but left.  I worked through a few more things on my computer and then did some walking and stretching and then walked over to the community center to swim.  My wife and kids were still there.  Basically it was 9pm and there was 30 more minutes of swimming.  I quickly spoke to them and swam laps until the pool closed.  Then some light work with machines and walked back home at 10pm. 

Spoke with them while doing some light stretching and then I went to bed. 

This morning I woke up to figure out my wife didn't come to bed.  I was about to get up when she comes in the room and wanted to snuggle... .so I stayed.  (doing a "little thing" for her). 

About an hour and a half later she asks if she can ask me a question... .to which I say sure.

She asks if it seems odd to me that I didn't go swimming with them when she asked and came at 9pm, which is when I normally go swim laps... .and what was I trying to "tell" her by doing that.

Realizing this is a midfield question.  I said... ."Oh goodness I don't remember trying to send any messages with my actions (pause)... .do you want to talk about it?"

There was some odd verbal exchanges where the question or issue kept shifting    and I tried to focus on listening to see if there was anything to respond to.

Well at some point she gets frustrated and says something about me "always" going at 9pm and not going to alter my schedule for her and that being a message or something.

So... .I asked a direct question:  "Do you want to better understand my decision not to go when you asked?"  I wasn't going to give any brainpower to thinking through the prior day unless she actually wanted that... .

She says... ."it sounds like you believe I'm assuming things... .and want to correct me... ." to which I said... "on the face of it ... .it sounds like some of your apparent assumptions are incorrect, especially about me sending you a message.  Yesterday was a tough day for me, I didn't want to think it through unless it mattered to you."

She's now really agitated and makes some sideways comments about never listening... .

my reply was that I wanted to understand and was ready to go anywhere with the conversation that would help...

very agitated she jumped up from the bed... .stomped into the bathroom muttering... .long shower (muttering)... .and has been cleaning in kitchen for an hour with loud Christian music... .muttering and threatening under her breath.

Most of it I honestly can't hear... .  "oh yeah... .we'll see about that... "... ."if that's the way he wants to  be... .we'll see... ."  etc etc

Sigh...

FF

[formflier]

There is another interesting thread where a discussion is going on about giving in to seemingly inauthentic requests or sticking to your guns.

Big picture:  Things have been really calm in our relationship for a while.  Yesterday my wife heads to the door with kids in tow saying she is going swimming and wants to know if I want to go.  (no plan... spur of the moment thing).

I thanked her for the thought and wished her a good time.  She asked why I didn't "want" to come and I assured her I wanted to but wasn't feeling the best and was trying to work through some stuff.  I had been sitting on couch for a bit having conversations with people and then working through a few things on my laptop.  Essentially several people relaxing together in the living room.

She seemed miffed but left.  I worked through a few more things on my computer and then did some walking and stretching and then walked over to the community center to swim.  My wife and kids were still there.  Basically it was 9pm and there was 30 more minutes of swimming.  I quickly spoke to them and swam laps until the pool closed.  Then some light work with machines and walked back home at 10pm. 

Spoke with them while doing some light stretching and then I went to bed. 

This morning I woke up to figure out my wife didn't come to bed.  I was about to get up when she comes in the room and wanted to snuggle... .so I stayed.  (doing a "little thing" for her). 

About an hour and a half later she asks if she can ask me a question... .to which I say sure.

She asks if it seems odd to me that I didn't go swimming with them when she asked and came at 9pm, which is when I normally go swim laps... .and what was I trying to "tell" her by doing that.

Realizing this is a midfield question.  I said... ."Oh goodness I don't remember trying to send any messages with my actions (pause)... .do you want to talk about it?"

There was some odd verbal exchanges where the question or issue kept shifting    and I tried to focus on listening to see if there was anything to respond to.

Well at some point she gets frustrated and says something about me "always" going at 9pm and not going to alter my schedule for her and that being a message or something.

So... .I asked a direct question:  "Do you want to better understand my decision not to go when you asked?"  I wasn't going to give any brainpower to thinking through the prior day unless she actually wanted that... .

She says... ."it sounds like you believe I'm assuming things... .and want to correct me... ." to which I said... "on the face of it ... .it sounds like some of your apparent assumptions are incorrect, especially about me sending you a message.  Yesterday was a tough day for me, I didn't want to think it through unless it mattered to you."

She's now really agitated and makes some sideways comments about never listening... .

my reply was that I wanted to understand and was ready to go anywhere with the conversation that would help...

very agitated she jumped up from the bed... .stomped into the bathroom muttering... .long shower (muttering)... .and has been cleaning in kitchen for an hour with loud Christian music... .muttering and threatening under her breath.

Most of it I honestly can't hear... .  "oh yeah... .we'll see about that... "... ."if that's the way he wants to  be... .we'll see... ."  etc etc

Sigh...

FF

[Notwendy]

I think this one is a hidden request. I gave the example of being asked to add meat to a vegetable cheese dish. I think part of the request was that "if you loved me you would go out of your way to do this. The usual way is to make the dish with all the vegetables and then also make one with only the ones he likes. I prep the ingredients, prepare two pans and make them at the same time. I didn't have meat on hand- I would have to thaw it and cook it first, then add it. The request was not to make one he liked- I planned for that already- I was considering his preferences. Adding the meat was taking an extra step- for him.

With your wife- she wanted you to come swimming with her- at the time she wanted, not the time you wanted. When you arrived at your usual time, you were not making the effort to do what she wanted- you were doing what you wanted, so it didn't meet the need she had for you to do something special- not your routine- for her.

In what I would think of a "normal" relationship- a person would make a request- add meat to my dish. The reply might be "honey, I would but I don't have it ready but next time I make this I will" then the reply might be "OK, I'll eat it the regular way". In the situation where not doing it is taken as a rejection, it becomes an issue.

In a normal situation, you would say " I'm not up to swimming now" and that would only mean that. In your situation it meant an affront to your wife.

The question for us is- we want to have "normal" and behave as such. Then our actions can be misinterpreted. But if we give in to all requests in order to keep the peace, we are also not being authentic if we say continuously say yes to things we don't truly want to do. ( sometimes we can be willing to do it)

[Cat Familiar]

It sounds like it’s yet another one of those “feelings equal facts” issues. She assumes (and she realizes that she is making an assumption) that you don’t care about her because you won’t change your habit.

You went into JADEing territory when you told her her assumptions were incorrect, and it all went downhill from there.

Chances are, she didn’t want to “talk about it” or “understand” your decision; likely she wanted an apology for not being flexible enough to conform to her “needs”.

I had a similar situation yesterday. I can be in a room with my husband and he will either be reading or online and have nary a word to say to me. But three times yesterday when I was in a hurry and I needed to leave or do something, then he suddenly wanted to talk. The third instance was really absurd: I had groceries and keys in one hand, an open can of cat food in the other... .

“You can’t even take a minute to talk to me all day.” This is so patently untrue, but I just ignored it. In the past, I would have tried to explain that if I lingered talking to him, I would be likely to drop the groceries or cat food can on the carpet in his studio—or some such excuse. And then, I know from history that he would become even more angry about his feelings being hurt and how callous and indifferent I am.

The irony is that in the past, I really did care about him feeling hurt that I didn’t talk to him very long at those times and I wanted to tell him that it was only because I was in a hurry and it wasn’t a slight or an insult—sometimes people are in a rush and don’t take it personally.

This time when accused of being neglectful and indifferent to his feelings, I thought to myself, “Well, I wasn’t then but I am now and you are being a whiner and that’s certainly unattractive.” Of course I didn’t say anything, just went and put away the groceries and fed the other cat, then started making dinner.

I kept a pleasant attitude when he came in and helped with dinner preparation and seemingly the matter was over and forgotten about.

[Notwendy]

I get that too Cat. My H likes for me to be around, but he isn't necessarily interested in talking to me. It's irritating to sit at the table through dinner while we are eating and have him not say a word, but it is his comfort zone. I used to push for conversation and it felt as if I was tugging every word out of him. "how was work today?" "fine" then silence.

He was also angry at me yesterday and not talking. So I sat at the table doing some work on my computer. If he wanted to talk to me I would have put it away. Then later " you're always on that computer and can't bother to talk to me".

[Enabler]

Notwendy has caused a brain fart I was pondering last night in response to her meat and veg paradox... .so... .

Someone who comes from a family where needs were not met, especially emotional needs, develops maladapted ways of getting them met... .and as result defines ‘love’ and ‘care’ by the magical ability of mind reading those needs. Some get those needs met by shouting, some get those needs met by passive aggressive behaviours, some get those needs met by hinting... .but ultimately they expect those needs to be met... .as a proof of love and care.

They also have a different definition of need vs want. Things are rarely defined as want and more often than not defined as a need. There’s a bunch of different reasons I can think for this.

Asking for a need overtly is risky. If my D10 is a good gauge of the thought process of an emotionally sensitive person, the word NO is like a cattle prod to her. She will do absolutely anything to avoid a situation where she hears the word no... .No = you’re wrong. So, hinting or asking for available options is her preferred way of selecting rather than overtly putting herself at risk of NO... .zap.

So as a guess as to her thought process, it goes a little like this... .

“Things have been good between FF and I recently, I really need to spend some spontaneous family time having fun at the pool with him, I feel confident enough to risk asking him to supply my needs. I asked him and he slammed the door in my face with some tosh reason he refuses to tell me. Then he rocks up to the pool at his usual time when it suited him without a care for me, the saunters around ignoring us doing his own thing. This morning he’s avassive when I try to discuss and thinks he can fob me off with a fumble... .who does he think I am?”

Enabler

[formflier]

What was even more bizarre about all of this is that I haven't been swimming in about a week and a half... perhaps 2 weeks.  Instead I've done some light stretching and walking and preferred to do holiday things with my family.

As in... .I wanted to spend time with my family more than I "wanted" to keep my normal routine. 

So... .while during "routine" times it's normal for me to go swim at that time, recent history had been very different.  Hence my asking for clarification about what she was talking about.

Also... .I had not a clue she was going swimming until she is at the door with kids. 

I've made a decision to not go overboard talking to my family/wife about "how I feel" and "impact of my disabilities" since it is such a triggering conversation and usually results in "you are faking it"... ."doctors don't know what they are talking about... etc etc"

And... .from a boundaries point of view... .my medical stuff is my business. 

Things are much calmer since I've started that "policy".

I have vaguely started mentioned when I didn't feel up to things in the past few months, that seems to have gone ok.  I certainly can't tell you word for word exactly what I said, but it was that I didn't physically feel like swimming at the moment. 

Anyway... .I asked if this was an area she wanted a conversation or understanding about... .and she really didn't answer... lots of sideways stuff.

Completely... completely weird and out of character for my wife for the past few months.

Sigh...

FF

[formflier]

Anyway... .about 30 minutes ago she comes in the office and gives me a hug and nice kiss... .then went about her business. 

I assumed it was some kind of "I'm sorry"... .

I approached her just a few minutes ago about something else and leaned in for a peck... .she was very cold... .turned away. 

Whatever... .I'm going about my day.

Whatever emotional thing that has come up for my wife she can either work out herself... or communicate clearly to me so that I can decide if I'm going to be part of it or not.

I'm not going to be part of guessing and trying various things to help something I don't understand.  Certainly I'll continue being kind and make gestures that I normally make... taking those away would seem to be "punishing" her for having a weird thing... whatever it was...

Who knows...

FF

[Notwendy]

Enabler- I think you have summed up the major issue in my marriage: asking for a need overtly is risky. This is true for my H's family- they don't ask overtly. It's covert. If one member wants something- they enlist other family members to either ask for them or collude with them. As my in laws aged and needed assistance- the kids did all kinds of backward scheming to get them help- so each didn't appear to confront the parents with offering help-in case they might refuse.

I would say the downfall in my marriage early on was when I failed to meet unspoken needs and my H retaliated by raging and painting me black. This came out of the blue for me and considering my own family background, I tried extra hard to fix things by meeting these needs.  As we all know though, the unmet need from childhood isn't something we can fix with enough love, or attention, or sex, or favors. I know we've all tried but we can't fix a childhood emotional hurt, and we can't read minds.

There were further issues when my H decided he wanted some expensive things and rather than talk to me about it, he made a major dent in the bank account. When I got upset about the financial impact- he took it as not being allowed to get what he wanted. The arguments in return were very hurtful. Even now, if he wants something ,the item will just show up when he gets it. Although he seems to be less extreme with the spending, I know he still does it. My preference would have been discussing what we want and then if it was possible, make a budget for it, but asking is too emotionally risky.

On my part, if I asked BPD mom for something, it would almost be certain I would not get it. My H triggers that by not wanting to be told what to do. If I ask for something, or ask him to do something, he resists. He may want to do it but when he decides to do it, not when I want it. (FF maybe this parallels into your wife being upset when you didn't come to the pool when she asked- perhaps in her family, this happened with BPD mom). Because of my own FOO experience, it helps that if I ask for something- that the person do it if they are willing, as it helps me to build trust with them. If they don't want to do it, I prefer they be honest about it.

[formflier]

I'm sure she got all kinds of reactions (likely few of them were pleasant) from her Mom.  My life certainly is better off and less chaotic now that I've "voluntarily estranged" my self from her family.

And... .she and others have remarked for years how much nicer they are now that they have aged... .  So I have to imagine it was bad.  I'm sure it was.

What I don't get, because it wasn't how my FOO operated... .is that if something was a big deal... .you would give someone a heads up.  It could be talked about openly.  Most requests were granted.  Almost all requests were answered in a positive way.  So... .if I didn't get the exact pants I wanted... .(my memory says Jordache was a big deal) they got me pants or gave me opportunity to earn my own money and buy whatever pants I wanted.

I have no memory of "how dare you ask".  I'm guessing that's most of my wife's memory.

Anyway... .surprising people with "do it right now" requests... .is not something I'm used to. 

FF

[Notwendy]

My H is great with the kids. If they need something for their education- he is glad to help them get it. If they want something material- he also helps them either get it or earn it. They've worked as well, and know the value of that, and it is one of the aspects of my marriage I am grateful for, as I was not able to feel that my father would come through for me if I needed financial help in college.

With me, not so much. He has this idea that people are taking advantage of him. If I ask for something, he thinks I am doing that, or somehow ordering him around. Agreeing to my request feels like an act of submission to him, so he digs his heels in. Eventually though he will decide to do it, on his terms and his time. He can actually be quite generous, but not at first with me. If I say something then he says " I do all kinds of things for you" which is true, but after resistance or taking some control over it.

We'll agree that a room needs to be painted and he leaves it to me to pick out the paint chips. I'll choose something I like and he'll then veto it. Once I had arranged to have a room wallpapered and at the last minute he had a fit and I had to cancel it- and he had agreed to it and knew about it. As a result, our home really needs some work but it's hard to get done as he'll tell me to do it and then micromanage it so a relatively simple job becomes complicated.

Gifts aren't just material. Acts of generosity of spirit are gifts too. An agreement would be a gift " honey just go get the paint you like, I'd be fine with it" would  be a gift. Yet when he does agree to something, I can sense the resentment behind it.

It's crazy making that these kinds of things have to be so complicated.

[formflier]

What would have happened if you went ahead an wallpapered... .carried out the existing agreement and assured him you would let him control the next one in it's entirety.

Did he have a reason for the change?

The weirdness continued for me this morning, but on a lower level.  We started our morning snuggle and apparently she wanted me to lay on my side that was hurting to snuggle her.  I offered several other positions that would work, declined the one that wouldn't and let her know again I was having pain there.

So... .she said/asked... "So... .you are still made?" 

My response... "excuse me.? what's up... ."

her:  "you know... you're still mad"

me:  "Oh... that's perplexing...   I'm not mad and don't recall recently being mad.  Want to talk through this?"

her "well... .you're not snuggling me"

me:  "There could be other reasons for not snuggling if you are interested in talking through it... "

her:  Long sigh.

me  "you can lay your head on my chest or if you want to hop over to other side that would work for me."

long pause

She puts her head on my chest... .nice long snuggle.

After a while I got up to turn on the oven to make biscuits.  She didn't want me to.  I stated I was hungry and wouldn't be good company if I didn't eat.  Came back and we snuggled some more.

Once oven was warm I put the biscuits in and snuggled more while they cooked.  We had biscuits in bed and she completely seemed to soften.

More snuggling (total snuggle time this morning... .2 to 2.5 hours) then she made some moves indicating she wanted sex.  Sex was great.  Another 15 min of snuggling and then I put another round of biscuits in for kids that were starting to get up.

So... .she's obviously got something working on her emotions.  What a complicated area... .sigh.

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, I don't know what he would have done. He isn't violent, but he can get mad, mad enough to be scary. I don't react much when the kids are not at home but I don't want them to be subjected to this. They are aware of it, but I don't talk much about it as I don't want to triangulate.

It's about control and being "manly". His dad was a complicated person. Loyal and supported his family, wounded ( from his own sad family background) and distant and the more my H talks about him, the more I see how he was verbally abusive. Frankly, I think he emasculated my H and now my H needs to be what he thinks is man of the house and basically not let me decide what to do. I get to rule the "woman's " things- the food, the kitchen, the kids and the dishes. But doing something in the house- he's not going to let me get my way without intervening.

This is so not me to buy into this. There were a few signs of this when we were dating but he didn't act this way as much until we had kids and he turned into his father. I've sought help for my own FOO issues. He won't. He thinks it's hogwash. He agreed briefly to MC which basically benefited me but he went through the motions just because he feared the marriage was falling apart. I don't deny that I can use the help, but I also wish he'd seek help too to deal with the childhood hurts he plays out with me. . Not likely to happen.

I've threatened to turn into my mother    but that isn't going to help things.

So wallpapering the wall would be an act of defiance to his manly rule. Not going to do this in front of the kids. They're thankfully OK. The house doesn't look so good. As you can see, there's been another recent conflict over this that bothers me. I'm just not up to the argument and it is discouraging to have these conflicts - especially when they repeat what I grew up with.

His dad really hurt him and he hardly is aware of the source of that pain. Sadly, he plays that hurt out with me and I can't fix it.  

[formflier]

Will he acknowledge that he is going back on his agreement?

Like the wallpaper thing... .he seems to want to double bind you.   If you cave into his current demand, you case aside the prior agreement.  If you hold to prior agreement, you are casting aside his prior agreement.

FF

[Notwendy]

He doesn't go back on his agreement, he takes over control of it.

He agrees to wallpaper it, but says he doesn't have time to pick it out. That's true as he's mostly at work during the day. I go an pick some samples, he rejects them. I spend more time picking out samples until he decides he likes it. Then it's done but by then, I'm worn down emotionally from the decisions.

He basically leaves it to me to pick out them micromanages it.

We painted two rooms and he agreed on the colors but then switched the colors per room. I went along with it, didn't want to argue. Later he agreed he would have liked my way better.

I also can't have anything feminine. No "girl" colors, no flowers.

I know it sounds petty, but I envy my friends whose husbands just leave that to them. I just wish for once he'd say "Ok honey, just do what you like" rather than make sure it's what he likes. I put myself into the kids- I'm a hands on mom, but I have little input into the house decor and I'm apathetic about it now as a decision becomes complicated.

[formflier]

He doesn't go back on his agreement, he takes over control of it.

 

This kinda thing drives me batty... which is why I drew such a hard line on it in my r/s.

There has been some improvement because I've kinda trained my wife to understand she must acknowledge the prior agreement if she wants to change.  If she wants to live in fantasy land of "I never said that... agreed to that... etc etc"... .I ignore her and press on .

Literally have had written... signed proof that was acknowledged by a MC that she said never happened... .and then would do all kinds of gymnastics to avoid looking at the "proof".

Anyway... .would he agree to have someone come do it... .I wonder if that's more "manly" to him.  He can "boss" a contractor around and that leaves you out of it.

FF

[Notwendy]

I do have someone do the wallpaper. I'd mess it up! It's the choosing of the colors, patterns and how it is done- when to do it, etc that gets to be complicated.

He's fine with men, and Mr Charming to women. I'm not worried about flirting or actually charming other women- but his persona is impressive. Our situation truly is one that affects the most intimate of relationships. I'm the one that triggers him. 

It's difficult to have boundaries/control over house projects- he's the chief wage earner so there needs to be discussions over home improvement projects. If there's been any boundary it's my avoidance of getting into them, but it's at the point where it needs to be done.

I see a common theme to some of these posts where little things become big things- what to serve as a holiday meal, or the time you arrive at the pool, or what pattern is on the wallpaper. In the grand scheme of things- how much do these really matter in terms of the time, energy and attention the argument entails. There was a mention of the idea of grace- letting the other person have their moment- or space to be who they are. So, you came to the pool a bit later- so what? So your wife wants pink flowers on the wall ( I don't really) but why is it such a big deal to just let these things be?

There was another mention somewhere of "death by a thousand cuts" in a marriage where there isn't a big thing- like infidelity, or drug addiction,  but that couples can drag a marriage down by arguing over day to day things.

[formflier]

  but that couples can drag a marriage down by arguing over day to day things.

Interesting metaphor. 

I wish I could remember where I heard this one... "Family's that have their hands around each others necks and are determined to strangle each other... .over the next 20 years."

I remember being particularly struck by that and by stories in my wife's FOO of conflict that ran on... .for years. 

I try to use the methaphor "Don't add more gas to the fire"  My wife was "burning" about a few things.  I'll likely never know "exactly" what...   My job isn't to know... .it's to make sure the cap is on "my" gas can. 

Anyway... .it can still be frustrating.

FF

[Notwendy]

I like a lyric in a David Bowie song- "putting out the fire with gasoline" as a metaphor.

Yes, I just try to keep the cap on the gas tank too.